Re: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
Oh I'm using an MTI MQD13 card as my disk controller. It is a MCSP controller that can interface up to 4 ESDI drives to Q Bus. Pretty fast. Just checked the configuration and block mode DMA *is* off. Wonder what happens if I turn it on... It does have a lot of knobs to fiddle with, so maybe I can figure out what works and what does not for these memory boards. Experimentation! C DMA CHARACTERISTICS: DRIVE 2... ESDI BLOCKMODE OFFFIRST LOGICAL.. 002 BURST LENGTH (WORDS). 16SECOND LOGICAL. 006 THROTTLE. ON DRIVE 3... ESDI DWELL us. 1.6 FIRST LOGICAL.. 003 SECOND LOGICAL. 007 SEEK MODE OVERLAPPED SEEK OPTIMIZATION ELEVATOR COMMAND QUEUE.. 008 FAIRNESS VALUE... 016 On 4/23/2020 1:17 AM, Mark Matlock via cctech wrote: Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:17:07 -0400 From: Chris Zach To:cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus? Message-ID:<27647f0e-19d4-b484-d288-e9f3bb715...@alembic.crystel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Thanks Mark! Actually this was just the boards from the 11/84 (no idea what happened to the chassis, drat) so it's an 11/84 CPU (18mhz, FPP chip installed), 2 PMI boards (one old 2mb, one new 1mb) a console board of some sort and the Unibus map. I popped this into my BA23 to speed things up a bit in place of my quad height 11/73 CPU with 2mb memory. So far it seems to work, and with the CA memory in the PMI slot managed to boot RSX11M 4.2 and compile up EMPIRE. Chris, I understand now. I also have a PDP-11/83 in a BA123 box and the CPU and PMI memory (M8637-E) can move from the Qbus box to the 11/84 box and work fine In either. I spent a good bit of time tinkering with the 11/84 power supply which did not Work until I put a M7556 minimum load module in it. Basically the ± 12 Volts needs a Load or you get a hung bus error. Also, with the Unibus you have to pay attention to The NPR/NPG grant jumpers. For disks on the QBus systems I used the UC07 and SCSI2SD. The UC07 can be can be configured for block mode transfers and I think it is doing it. I guess I’d need to hook up a logic analyzer to know for sure. The 11/84 uses a UniBone and when it is emulating a MSCP disk, it can do 150 I/Os a second (using IOX on RSX11M+) The 11/83 using the UC07 and a SCSI2SD Does about 60 I/Os per second. I think the UC07 could go faster but is limited by the SDcard interface. I need to put a fast real SCSI disk on it sometime and see what it can do.
Re: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
> From: Jerry Weiss > uNOTE # 028 indicates that MSV-11 JB/JC (M8637-B/C) doesn't do block > mode. I went and looked at uNOTE #28, after I found it (it's not in the initial set of uNOTEs, but in the second set - the so-called 'OEM uNOTEs"; note that the numbers were re-used between the two sets, so there are _two different_ uNOTE #28's). I couldn't find anything there about the JB/JC not doing block mode? All it says is they "can not be used in a Q-BUS system due to gate array incompatibilities". Noel
Re: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
> From: Chris Zach > Just checked the configuration and block mode DMA *is* off. Interesting. So it's not bklock-mode on the QBUS which is screwed up, but normal QBUS transfers. That jibes with the comment abour "gate array incompatibilities" (which I take to mean "errors" :-). > was the 11/70's MASSBUS channels nothing more than RH11-C's attached to > the old FASTBUS on the 11/45 cpu core (which is what an 11/70 really > is, with cache) or did they port right to the memory box? RH70's are totally different from RH11's - a hex card, and a couple of quads - and the interface to the /70's memory system is totally different from the RH11's (which goes to the UNIBUS): https://gunkies.org/wiki/RH70_MASSBUS_controller It has interfaces to both the cache, and the memory bus (although the diagram in the 11/70 CPU handbook shows it as only connected to the cache). I didn't follow the "the old FASTBUS on the 11/45 cpu core (which is what an 11/70 really is, with cache)"; the 70's cache is what's connected to what used to be the FASTBUS, the memory bus connects to the cache, IIRC. Noel
Re: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
Sorry about the uNOTE confusion... I was focused and just used the reference from the OEM version. I was aware but had mentally excluded the older Microcomputer Products Group/Components Group version. If you look at the Memory Comparison table in this OEM uNOTE, it only lists Block Mode for "JD/JE ONLY". Hence my comment about it not being on the JB/JC. Jerry On 4/24/20 11:23 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > From: Jerry Weiss > uNOTE # 028 indicates that MSV-11 JB/JC (M8637-B/C) doesn't do block > mode. I went and looked at uNOTE #28, after I found it (it's not in the initial set of uNOTEs, but in the second set - the so-called 'OEM uNOTEs"; note that the numbers were re-used between the two sets, so there are _two different_ uNOTE #28's). I couldn't find anything there about the JB/JC not doing block mode? All it says is they "can not be used in a Q-BUS system due to gate array incompatibilities". Noel
Re: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
> From: Jerry Weiss > Sorry about the uNOTE confusion.. No problem, it only took me about a minute to find the right one; my note was to warn other people who didn't know about the number duplication. > If you look at the Memory Comparison table in this OEM uNOTE, it only > lists Block Mode for "JD/JE ONLY". Oh, right. Still, it sounds from reports here like regular DMA doesn't work in QBUS mode either - and technically that table entry might mean than since it doesn't work for the QBUS _at all_, that includes no block mode. I actually have -B/-C boards, I should plug one in in QBUS mode, and get my QSIC prototype working again (it somehow random failed during the last year, and I've been too lazy to debug it), and write a little program to DMA blocks in and out, and see what happens to the data. If I get really energetic I could throw a 'scope on the bus and look at bus cycles and see if they look OK. It would be interesting to have some more detail on the failure. Noel
Re: pdp11/84 PMI memory: What is the problem with Q bus?
Oh, right. Still, it sounds from reports here like regular DMA doesn't work in QBUS mode either - and technically that table entry might mean than since it doesn't work for the QBUS _at all_, that includes no block mode. Regular Q bus DMA seems to be working fine. I can see the performance difference pretty easily when looking at 1,2,4,8,16 word transfers, anything else I should be checking? I actually have -B/-C boards, I should plug one in in QBUS mode, and get my QSIC prototype working again (it somehow random failed during the last year, and I've been too lazy to debug it), and write a little program to DMA blocks in and out, and see what happens to the data. If I get really energetic I could throw a 'scope on the bus and look at bus cycles and see if they look OK. I can also bring up an RL02 with the RLV12 (also does DMA) and see how an authentic DEC appliance works with this memory card. But really I'm not seeing any speed increase of PMI memory vs. non-PMI memory with the exception that the initial memory check runs a good bit faster with PMI over without. And that might make sense: PMI memory responds to the Q bus just like normal memory. So from a Q bus device perspective it's just boring old memory and thus no speed improvement. What might speed up is if I did memory to memory (VM0:) copies, but with only 2mb running at the moment there's not a lot of time to check for performance differences. Maybe it can't properly handle things like 18 bit DMA cards like the RXV12. Let's find out: What's the worst that can happen?
Re: PMI memory error
On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 3:30 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > So the memory board might be bad. When the 11/83 runs memory tests the > 1mb board (of course the one that's fixed to run on Q bus systems) fails > out with: > > Testing in progress - Please wait > Memory Size is 3072 K Bytes > 9 Step memory test >Step > > Error 47 > Memory CSR Error > Is it possible to continue past that error and then try to boot? If you can boot XXDP and run the VMJAB0 MSV11-J Memory diagnostic maybe it would provide more detailed error information.
Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/143536589578 What in the world is this?
Re: Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
> On 24 Apr 2020, at 23:39, Anders Nelson via cctalk > wrote: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/143536589578 > > What in the world is this? It’s a word processor, pure and simple. I have the later version and have kind of been collecting tales of the Cassette Power Typing company of Michigan - http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/cpt -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaursf: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk
Re: Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
On 4/24/20 3:39 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/143536589578 > > What in the world is this? Early word processor. There's a bit on the web on it. --Chuck
Re: Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
On 4/24/20 3:52 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > >> On 24 Apr 2020, at 23:39, Anders Nelson via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/143536589578 >> >> What in the world is this? > > > It’s a word processor, pure and simple. I have the later version and have > kind of been collecting tales of the Cassette Power Typing company of > Michigan - http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/cpt > Apparently, there was a version of CP/M 2.2 offered for it, but I've never been able to find the beast. The processor itself is very basic--each page is a file and the operation is of a block-oriented editing terminal. I've converted a lot of the 8" CPT floppies for customers. FWIW, the thing is pretty worthless without the requisite system software floppies. --Chuck
Re: Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
What in the world is this? On Fri, 24 Apr 2020, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: It’s a word processor, pure and simple. I have the later version and have kind of been collecting tales of the Cassette Power Typing company of Michigan - http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/cpt Thank you for a delightful page. I hadn't previously noticed it. Trivial corrections: In Nov 2005 update, it says that the 9000 had an 8086 processor. In Jan 2007 update, it says that Win 3.1 was run on it. Windows 3.10 required A20 support, and would not run on the 8088/8086, so that would have had to have been Windows 3.00, OR the 9000 processor was 80X86, specifically 80286. OR, the 9000 got a processor update. (The pictures at the bottom of the page, of ISA boards, are clearly 16 bit ISA, which would be 80286, not 8086) In Sep 2008, Gary Simpson seems to have confused Double-SIDED with Double-DENSITY. Punching another hole is needed to convert 8" disks back and forth between single and double SIDED. and is unrelated to density. He also mentioned 1771 FDC, which was, indeed, FM not MFM. (He would not be the first person to conflate capacity with density, and think that using both sides doubled the DENSITY; it doubled the capacity, and therefore the density of the filing cabinet, but not the "density" of the recording format.) At one time, I received a 3.5" double density sample disk that was clearly labelled "CPT CP/M-80" It was obviously CP/M file system, and I easily implemented that format in XenoCopy. (It would not have been "easily" if it weren't CP/M, MS-DOS, Stand-Alone BASIC, P-system, nor TRS-DOS) Was that a different CPT? Similar three letter name COULD be something else entirely. Or had they done some different drives? Or was that a customer modification? Gary Simpson mentions 1771 FDC, which was single density only. Did any of the CP/M models (pre 80x86) have double density? (likely a 179x FDC, which was an easy upgrade from the 1771, or a whole different FDC, such as the NEC765). It didn't HAVE to be pre-80286; it was possible to run a Z80 emulator on PCs, but few had reason to do so. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
Bitsavers has some brochures on the 8000 and 6000 (cost-reduced 8000): http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/cpt/brochures/ I've got an operator's flip-style book somewhere in my stuff for the 8000. CP/M for the 8000 was announced by CPT in 1979. --Chuck
Re: Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
Ya. And it’s not from Michigan but Minnesota! You betcha. -- Chris Elmquist > On Apr 24, 2020, at 7:00 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > >> >>> What in the world is this? > >> On Fri, 24 Apr 2020, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> It’s a word processor, pure and simple. I have the later version and have >> kind of been collecting tales of the Cassette Power Typing company of >> Michigan - >> http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/cpt > > Thank you for a delightful page. I hadn't previously noticed it. > > > Trivial corrections: > > In Nov 2005 update, it says that the 9000 had an 8086 processor. > In Jan 2007 update, it says that Win 3.1 was run on it. > Windows 3.10 required A20 support, and would not run on the 8088/8086, so > that would have had to have been Windows 3.00, > OR the 9000 processor was 80X86, specifically 80286. > OR, the 9000 got a processor update. > (The pictures at the bottom of the page, of ISA boards, are clearly 16 bit > ISA, which would be 80286, not 8086) > > In Sep 2008, Gary Simpson seems to have confused Double-SIDED with > Double-DENSITY. Punching another hole is needed to convert 8" disks back and > forth between single and double SIDED. and is unrelated to density. > He also mentioned 1771 FDC, which was, indeed, FM not MFM. > (He would not be the first person to conflate capacity with density, and > think that using both sides doubled the DENSITY; it doubled the capacity, and > therefore the density of the filing cabinet, but not the "density" of the > recording format.) > > > > At one time, I received a 3.5" double density sample disk that was clearly > labelled "CPT CP/M-80" It was obviously CP/M file system, and I easily > implemented that format in XenoCopy. (It would not have been "easily" if it > weren't CP/M, MS-DOS, Stand-Alone BASIC, P-system, nor TRS-DOS) > Was that a different CPT? Similar three letter name COULD be something else > entirely. > Or had they done some different drives? > Or was that a customer modification? > Gary Simpson mentions 1771 FDC, which was single density only. > Did any of the CP/M models (pre 80x86) have double density? (likely a 179x > FDC, which was an easy upgrade from the 1771, or a whole different FDC, such > as the NEC765). > It didn't HAVE to be pre-80286; it was possible to run a Z80 emulator on PCs, > but few had reason to do so. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
It really is a shame that little attention is paid to the early WaPro vendors. I remember that we had an Artec system, with a floor-standing dual 8" drive box and a Diablo KSR Hitype with an attached one-line display. Artec was acquired by Dictaphone, who was then swallowed by Pitney Bowes, who then got out of the rather crowded word processor market. I can't find a photo of the original blue Artec box on the web; only the later PB "Dual display" models. I mean, who remembers Qyx or Vydec? --Chuck
Re: Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
Does anybody have a wp made by AES? In the late 70's, they were experimenting with voice recognition for their systems. We were a nearby DEC Components OEM and had a hundred or so LSI11/23 modules in stock. They sent an engineer over to our plant, took out the whole stock, and replaced the 13.824 MHz clock crystal module with the output of a function generator to see how high they could overclock it to get the response they needed for voice recognition. I think they bought the 4 or 5 that passed diagnostics with the highest clock speed, somewhere near 40 MHz IIRC. cheers, Nigel On 24/04/2020 21:50, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: It really is a shame that little attention is paid to the early WaPro vendors. I remember that we had an Artec system, with a floor-standing dual 8" drive box and a Diablo KSR Hitype with an attached one-line display. Artec was acquired by Dictaphone, who was then swallowed by Pitney Bowes, who then got out of the rather crowded word processor market. I can't find a photo of the original blue Artec box on the web; only the later PB "Dual display" models. I mean, who remembers Qyx or Vydec? --Chuck -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message
Re: Dixie Canner CPT 8000?
On 4/24/20 6:58 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > Does anybody have a wp made by AES? > > In the late 70's, they were experimenting with voice recognition for > their systems. We were a nearby DEC Components OEM and had a hundred or > so LSI11/23 modules in stock. They sent an engineer over to our plant, > took out the whole stock, and replaced the 13.824 MHz clock crystal > module with the output of a function generator to see how high they > could overclock it to get the response they needed for voice > recognition. I think they bought the 4 or 5 that passed diagnostics with > the highest clock speed, somewhere near 40 MHz IIRC. > Some years ago, I received a Harris/AES hard-sector 8" floppy from a friend of a newspaper reporter. Took me forever to decode the format, after which I wasn't able to locate the customer. I do recall that those systems were quite popular in the newspaper trade, however. Here's a video documentary from CBC relating the sad story of that Canadian tech outfit. https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1890827641 --Chuck
