Re: CXY08 and DELQA compatible with 2.11bsd?
On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 12:03 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 3/15/2018 8:22 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: > >Does anyone know offhand if the CXY08 (M3119) and DELQA (M7516) work >> with >> 2.11bsd? >> >> >>I think the CXY08 has the same programmer interface as the DHV11, and >> I'm >> hoping it works with the 2.11bsd dh driver. Ditto for the DELQA and the >> qe >> driver. If somebody knows for sure, though, I'd appreciate it if you can >> save me the trouble of installing it all just to find out it doesn't work. >> > > The DELQA should work fine with the qe driver. I can't comment on the > CXY08 as I've never tried it personally. > At least he's not trying to use a DEQNA interface, so he's ahead of the game... Warner > - Josh > > > >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bob >> >> >> >
Did anyone on the list get these tapes?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1372243559202 basic.p11 syslod.p11 rdt.p11 all from mid 1971 original RSTS? hope the person who got these knows what they bought
Re: Did anyone on the list get these tapes?
On Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 8:51 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/1372243559202 > > basic.p11 > syslod.p11 > rdt.p11 > > all from mid 1971 > original RSTS? > > hope the person who got these knows what they bought > Extra digit in that link, try: https://www.ebay.com/itm/372243559202 >
Re: Did anyone on the list get these tapes?
On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 9:07 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 8:51 AM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/1372243559202 > > > > basic.p11 > > syslod.p11 > > rdt.p11 > > > > all from mid 1971 > > original RSTS? > > > > hope the person who got these knows what they bought > > > > Extra digit in that link, try: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/372243559202 > > > > The LCM+L bought them, we're going to image them when they arrive (and I'll be sure to send a copy your way). - Josh
Re: Did anyone on the list get these tapes?
> On Mar 16, 2018, at 12:39, Josh Dersch via cctalk > wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 9:07 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 8:51 AM Al Kossow via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1372243559202 >>> >>> basic.p11 >>> syslod.p11 >>> rdt.p11 >>> >>> all from mid 1971 >>> original RSTS? >>> >>> hope the person who got these knows what they bought >>> >> >> Extra digit in that link, try: >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/372243559202 >> >>> >> > > The LCM+L bought them, we're going to image them when they arrive (and I'll > be sure to send a copy your way). > > - Josh Ya!!! I saw those and there were some tapes their that looked like my PDP-12 might enjoy then. Sent from my iPad
Re: Did anyone on the list get these tapes?
On 3/16/18 10:39 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > The LCM+L bought them Good Job! I was hoping you guys did, when I saw there was a copy of PAL10 on there.
Re: Did anyone on the list get these tapes?
> On Mar 16, 2018, at 11:51 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/1372243559202 > > basic.p11 > syslod.p11 > rdt.p11 > > all from mid 1971 > original RSTS? > > hope the person who got these knows what they bought "P11" was the extension used for PDP-11 assembly files very early on. I assume that was because they were cross-assembled on a PDP-10. Presumably PALX11.MAC which is on one of the other tapes! One of the tapes seems to be a SNOBOL implementation, with LOW and HGH and SHR extensions which sounds vaguely familiar from long ago when I briefly used TOPS-10. Another has SIMX11.SAV, wonder if that might be MIMIC. That would be quite a find. And on the same tape IOX.P11, that sounds like the early "papertape I/O executive". One tape is labeled "New PS/8". BASIC.P11 could be the RSTS BASIC code, that too would be a very interesting discovery with that date. SYSLOD is the DOS installer. RDT I don't recognize. I'm seriously looking forward to seeing image files of those tapes. paul
Re: radar history
> From: Steven Malikoff > I also have a book 'RADAR How it all began' by Jim Brown ... > incredibly precise recollection of the engineering Wow, thanks for that incredibly valuable pointer. My copy just arrived, and it's fabulous; it documents in great detail a part of the story that's little-known, which is the industrialization of the early radar work. There are a number of books from people on the research side (Watson-Watt, Bowen, etc), but not much on the industrial side. There is an obscure book: Frank Rowlinson, "Contribution to Victory: An Account of Some of the Special Work of the Metropolitan-Vickers Electrical Company Limited in the Second World War", Metropolitan-Vickers Electrical Company, Manshester, 1947 (which covers a lot of stuff, not just the radar work), but it doesn't have a lot of technical detail. What it _does_ have a lot of large, excellent B+W photos of the early CH, CHL etc transmitters (which MetroVick built), but not much technical detail of them. That book, and Brown's book, are a marvellous pairing, since he has the detailed description, but no images! A very complementary pairing. Noel
PDP8/e programmers consoles
So the PDP8/e used the KC8-EA programmers console which has incandescent indicator lamps and the PDP8/f used the KC8-FL programmers console which has LED indicator lamps. Why? The maintenance manual says that LEDs are more reliable. The operation is as far as I know the same. The LED version doesn't need the +8VDC supply, but that seems an advantage for it. I remember reading that the EAE had some revision dependencies with the console, so were there bus timing problems with the LED console that limited it to short buses? Maybe this changed over time, but it overlapped long enough for them to have both described in the maintenance manual and specific to the application. Another console question... Has anyone ever seen a PDP8/i style console for the PDP8/e? Looking at the way the PDP8/e console functions, it should be possible to time multiplex all the register to the data bus so they are all visible at once when the machine is halted. -chuck
Noel idea you were into raddar so much too cool!
all in the title
DEC bus edge connectors
Does anyone have DEC bus edge connectors they are willing to sell? I would like to do some OMNIBUS interface prototyping and I need a way to connect to the bus back-plane. In my mis-guided youth I resorted so sawing them off perfectly good boards. I would rather not do that again. If anyone has prototype boards they have designed with fingers or dead boards they would part I will take them. My methods are crude, but effective. -chuck
Re: DEC bus edge connectors
> From: Charles Dickman > Does anyone have DEC bus edge connectors they are willing to sell? > I would like to do some OMNIBUS interface prototyping and I need a way > to connect to the bus back-plane. Have you looked through Douglas Electronics' offerings? They have a lot of DEC-backplane compatible boards that might be what you want, e.g.: http://www.douglas.com/index.php/18-de-77.html this one. Noel
Re: DEC bus edge connectors
On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 8:59 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Have you looked through Douglas Electronics' offerings? They have a lot of > DEC-backplane compatible boards that might be what you want, e.g.: > > http://www.douglas.com/index.php/18-de-77.html > > this one. Interesting. I have looked at them before on the larger perf boards, but that is a good price for what I want. Thanks for the pointer, -chuck
Re: PDP8/e programmers consoles
On 03/16/2018 08:28 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > So the PDP8/e used the KC8-EA programmers console which has > incandescent indicator lamps and the PDP8/f used the KC8-FL > programmers console which has LED indicator lamps. Wrong. The 8f uses the same as the 8e. It was the 8m that had the LED console. If memory serves it was date of design that influenced it. I can be certain as I have an 8f built in 1973. I've since moded it to take bright yellow LEDs as lamps are not easy to find and annoying to replace. If I care to I can put the lamps back. Since I put operational over absolute faithful its better as is, less digging in the box. > Why? > > The maintenance manual says that LEDs are more reliable. The operation > is as far as I know the same. The LED version doesn't need the +8VDC > supply, but that seems an advantage for it. I remember reading that > the EAE had some revision dependencies with the console, so were there > bus timing problems with the LED console that limited it to short > buses? Cost to redesign and the cost of LEDs, and their lack of brightness then didn't justify it. The 8m was aimed at the industrial user that would use it differently, usually wrapped in a box to protect it from the shop floor dust and grime and generally less maintenance. Many sites have the M and the F swapped on the LEDs. However the LED equipped machines are rare and all the 8f machines I know of have the 8v power for lamps. The LED version can use 5V or 8V. However its possible to swap the panels, I tried it once and it pass diags and worked fine. Didn't like the red. The biggest difference is the lamp panels have resistors to keep the filament warm but not glowing for improved life and those are not there for LEDs (it would keep LEDs lit). The LED did not need that resistor but needed a current limited resistor for the LED. Otherwise they were the same and there was no timing impact. Keep in mind they all (e,f,M) could use the the industrial minimal panel that allowed for reset and run using boot roms. > Maybe this changed over time, but it overlapped long enough for them > to have both described in the maintenance manual and specific to the > application. The Incandescent console was higher volume and lingered for that reason. The volumes for the 8m were low as that market was also seeing inroads from the PDP-11 and not much later the LSI-11. There was overlap in production the 8e was very popular until the 8A which was cheaper and more compact. > Another console question... > > Has anyone ever seen a PDP8/i style console for the PDP8/e? Looking at > the way the PDP8/e console functions, it should be possible to time > multiplex all the register to the data bus so they are all visible at > once when the machine is halted. No and can't! The 8i (nor the 8L) was not omnibus. The boards to make up the console were not compatible with the 8e. Yes, you can display the same stuff if you were to make your own, all the signals are on the omnibus and it would take some buffering maybe some latches. The 8e form used fewer lamps and fewer lamp driver parts so it was less expensive to make and maintain. Yes, one could kluge it, taking into account you need a hand wired backplane for the M-series flipchips that support the 8i panel and getting the signal polarity right. Its forgotten that the 8 series runs from transistors, early DTL, TTL, and later CMOS and had seen at least 5 iterations from the PDP-5 though the late-8 CMOS chip based series (decmate I/II/III). The 8e represented the first of the family of pdp-8 that had a unified bus both in signals, timing and physical structure. It was the a major repackage of the PDP-8i to both a smaller, less expensive, easier to manufacture, repair, and test. Whats missed was the 8e/f/M were the easiest of the 8 series to interface to anything and they did indeed get a lot of hand made one off interfaces for specific missions. As a result the 8e was nearly the ubiquitous small computer. Allison > -chuck
Re: PDP8/e programmers consoles
On Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 20:58 allison via cctalk wrote: > On 03/16/2018 08:28 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > > So the PDP8/e used the KC8-EA programmers console which has > > incandescent indicator lamps and the PDP8/f used the KC8-FL > > programmers console which has LED indicator lamps. > Wrong. The 8f uses the same as the 8e. It was the 8m that had the > LED console. If memory serves it was date of design that influenced it. > I have seen several 8/f systems that have LEDs, for what it's worth. I can only imagine DEC was transitioning the 8/m and 8/f to take LEDs instead of incandescents. > > I can be certain as I have an 8f built in 1973. I've since moded it to > take bright yellow LEDs as lamps are not easy to find and annoying > to replace. If I care to I can put the lamps back. Since I put > operational > over absolute faithful its better as is, less digging in the box. > The bulbs are still available on Mouser. I've ordered a bunch for my 8/e and have been very happy with them. http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/bulbs.php > > However its possible to swap the panels, I tried it once and it pass diags > and worked fine. Didn't like the red. > I've found that my LED 8/m is very hard to read, as the LEDs are very dim. > > > > > Another console question... > > > > Has anyone ever seen a PDP8/i style console for the PDP8/e? Looking at > > the way the PDP8/e console functions, it should be possible to time > > multiplex all the register to the data bus so they are all visible at > > once when the machine is halted. > No and can't! The 8i (nor the 8L) was not omnibus. > I think he's aware (hence "style"). Kyle >
Re: PDP8/e programmers consoles
On 03/16/2018 10:31 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 20:58 allison via cctalk > wrote: > >> On 03/16/2018 08:28 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: >>> So the PDP8/e used the KC8-EA programmers console which has >>> incandescent indicator lamps and the PDP8/f used the KC8-FL >>> programmers console which has LED indicator lamps. >> Wrong. The 8f uses the same as the 8e. It was the 8m that had the >> LED console. If memory serves it was date of design that influenced it. >> > I have seen several 8/f systems that have LEDs, for what it's worth. I can > only imagine DEC was transitioning the 8/m and 8/f to take LEDs instead of > incandescents. Work for DEC, 10 years from 1983 and very rarely saw them and those in the region (the greater Maynard area) around DEC never seem to have LEDs unless added later. There was a third part bulb replacement. They were dim then as well and not popular. I got lucky and found one but, dim red LEDs are unappealing so its put aside as a spare or maybe to build up another machine. >> I can be certain as I have an 8f built in 1973. I've since moded it to >> take bright yellow LEDs as lamps are not easy to find and annoying >> to replace. If I care to I can put the lamps back. Since I put >> operational >> over absolute faithful its better as is, less digging in the box. >> > The bulbs are still available on Mouser. I've ordered a bunch for my 8/e > and have been very happy with them. > > http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/bulbs.php I know, I have a stock, but you have to pull the panel apart to replace them, gets tiring. Modern yellow LEDs are nice and bright, and don't burn out. Less digging in the box is a good thing as over time fumble errors can hurt it. One _*oops*_ during assembly could be painful. >> However its possible to swap the panels, I tried it once and it pass diags >> and worked fine. Didn't like the red. >> > I've found that my LED 8/m is very hard to read, as the LEDs are very dim. Back then they were terrible. I have a supply of old ones and at 9mA they were dim and at 11mA the died! Modern red leds at 8mA are very much brighter. However the yellow look more like lamps. Every so often I look at is and wonder if a mix of yellow and white in groups of three might be cool looking. but then I have to take it apart when not broken, the thing I am trying to avoid. ;) >>> Another console question... >>> >>> Has anyone ever seen a PDP8/i style console for the PDP8/e? Looking at >>> the way the PDP8/e console functions, it should be possible to time >>> multiplex all the register to the data bus so they are all visible at >>> once when the machine is halted. >> No and can't! The 8i (nor the 8L) was not omnibus. >> > I think he's aware (hence "style"). I've seen a one off 6100 (CMOS 8) with a 8i like front panel. it was made rather poorly and not structurally strong so who knows if it exists still. The basic idea is easy to do on any 8. But nearly 60 lamps/LEDs later and all the switches its going to take time to build. It would be terrible if someone were to junk an 8I or L just for the panel. The front panel also is part of the 8 evolution to a more desirable turnkey machine which is what the users wanted. One described it as "I want to use it not sit there and flip switches all day". Oddly it was Field service that wanted it the panel as it was a good debug tool and retained. Systems with mass storage as a nominal thing helped to kill the front panel. Allison > Kyle >
Re: PDP8/e programmers consoles
cool post, thanks. mcl
Re: PDP11/03 BA-11M Front panel switch replacement
Doug said > On 2/25/2018 10:40 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 7:50 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: I have a BA11-M box with the usual front panel control, however it was damaged and all three switches have been sheared off. The LED's and the circuit card that connects to the power supply appear to be OK. I would like to repair it and put it back into service. Is there a replacement for those switches? >> In general, many old switch patterns are still made. Often, they have >> a manufacturer's name and part # on the body of the switch. Some >> common makes from back then were C&K and Alco. >> >> Jon > > Good advice, I went and looked at another box I had and the switches are > indeed C&K models 7101 and 7108. Looking on ebay since they are > obsolete, finding the model with the paddle actuator will be the trick. In case anyone is interested I have put up the STL and parametric scripts on Thingiverse for a project to build a replica PDP-11/03 console with the same look and feel as the original (following the 6-foot Rule) for an MDB backplane I acquired from a cctalk listmember. If you have missing or broken switch paddles on your 11/03 or 11/05 then this might be of use to you. Also included is the LED receptacle used on the 11/03 and 11/05 and I think (but am not certain) the PDP-8/E, as is currently being discussed. Being parametric you can adjust for different C&K switches, or other brands if you like. You will find it at https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2829191 Steve.
