RE: Any faithful VT100 Emulators?

[Peter Coghlan via cctalk]

>
> 
> From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Warren Toomey via 
> cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 9:02 PM
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Any faithful VT100 Emulators?
>
> OK, so I don't have a real VT100, so I'm accessing an old 4.3BSD system
> with xterm and LXTerminal terminal emulators on Linux. Last night, for a
> laugh, I ran vttest from the 1980s and the terminal emulators performed
> woefully.
>
> Which raises the question, are there any _good_ VT100 terminal
> emulators, especially for Linux? For any other platforms?
> 
> Cheers, Warren
>
> __
>
> I've never formally tested it but people say Putty is very good.  I have even
> heard VMS users say it works with LSE.  ANd then, if you have MSDOS
> laying around somewhere there is MSKermit which had to be the best I
> ever saw.
>
> bill

I've used Putty to connect to a VMS system to run TPU (which I think LSE is
a thinly disguised variant of) and I have regularly come across an irritating
bug which messes up full screen editing when the on-screen cursor seems to get
out of step with the text that is actually getting changed, or something like
that anyway.  Scrolling down the file and scrolling back up to the point where
changes were made reveals that the changes actually made were not what it
looked like was changed on the screen.

Having said that Putty is way better than any of the Microsoft telnet or
Hyperterminal offerings which are completely unusable with TPU or anything else
that attempts to make use of a scrolling region (vi maybe? - I don't know).

I haven't used MSKermit for donkeys years but as far as I recall, the emulation 
was very good with the exception of stuff like double height characters and
smooth scroll not being implemented which did not affect functionality in the
way that the Putty bug does.  I haven't used it but I think there were very
good reports about the terminal emulation in Kermit 95.

I can't recall noticing any problems with the terminal emulation when using
whatever telnet client comes with relatively current Apple Mac and Linux
systems in whatever terminal environment they provide (xterm maybe?), nor
the Multinet telnet client on VMS when running it in a DECterm or a real VT
terminal.

I also agree with John Wilson's take on VTTEST being well off the mark.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

Re: Any faithful VT100 Emulators?

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Mar 22, 2017, at 7:11 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk  
> wrote:
> ...
> I've used Putty to connect to a VMS system to run TPU (which I think LSE is
> a thinly disguised variant of) and I have regularly come across an irritating
> bug which messes up full screen editing when the on-screen cursor seems to get
> out of step with the text that is actually getting changed, or something like
> that anyway.  Scrolling down the file and scrolling back up to the point where
> changes were made reveals that the changes actually made were not what it
> looked like was changed on the screen.

I don't remember how VMS describes terminal types, but here's one possible 
issue.  VT100 is fairly different from VT101/102, and if the emulator is 
emulating a VT100 while the application has been told it has a VT102, things 
are likely to be problematic.  I vaguely remember that VT100 lacks the insert 
operations, and if the program tries to use those when they aren't there, that 
would certainly cause the sort of problems you mentioned.

paul

Re: Any faithful VT100 Emulators?

[Adrian Graham via cctalk]

On 22 March 2017 at 01:02, Warren Toomey via cctalk 
wrote:

> Which raises the question, are there any _good_ VT100 terminal
> emulators, especially for Linux? For any other platforms?
>

You don't specify open source or commercial, but for windows I used to
constantly use PowerTerm525 at work, it's originally an Ericom product but
DEC bundled it in with the Pathworks client and it did everything I needed
as an old coder who used to write for all the VT1xx AVO features. These
days I use PuTTY which works fine for all my VMS stuff but you also still
have Reflection (pair) and TeraTerm (free).

Even now though I still miss the EDT keypad, muscle memory is a great
thing, having just added this line in I automatically hit KP0 to cursor
down to the next line :)

Linux, no idea. I seem to use lxterm mostly, and minicom for serial
terminal stuff.

Cheers,

-- 
adrian/witchy
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection?
www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk

Re: Any faithful VT100 Emulators?

[Tor Arntsen via cctalk]

On 22 March 2017 at 02:02, Warren Toomey via cctalk
 wrote:

> Which raises the question, are there any _good_ VT100 terminal
> emulators, especially for Linux? For any other platforms?

xterm never gives me any problems. But the default terminal emulators
of Gnome or KDE have some issues in my experience. xterm is always
buried in the system somewhere though, and it works. I use it e.g. for
accessing my old minicomputer which has a VT100 setting.

Re: Any faithful VT100 Emulators?

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Tor Arntsen via cctalk
 wrote:
> xterm never gives me any problems. But the default terminal emulators
> of Gnome or KDE have some issues in my experience...

Somewhere around 2004, I was setting up klh10.  I found that xterm did
not allow me to run emacs successfully.  I had dumb terminals on hand,
so I plugged a vt420 into my serial port, ran a getty, logged in, ran
klh10 from there and emacs loved it.

I'm following this thread because I too want a decent terminal
emulator that works with a variety of vintage text editors (that seems
to be the torture test) but for Linux or OS X.  Putty seems to be a
repeat suggestion but it's not for my platforms.

-ethan

Re: Any faithful VT100 Emulators?

[Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk]

Ethan Dicks wrote:
> Somewhere around 2004, I was setting up klh10.  I found that xterm did
> not allow me to run emacs successfully.

I have successfullyl run xterm in VT52 mode with ITS Emacs.

Re: Any faithful VT100 Emulators?

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 9:29 AM, Lars Brinkhoff  wrote:
> Ethan Dicks wrote:
>> Somewhere around 2004, I was setting up klh10.  I found that xterm did
>> not allow me to run emacs successfully.
>
> I have successfullyl run xterm in VT52 mode with ITS Emacs.

I must confess I did not attempt VT52 mode with Emacs.  In another
world, I did find that the VT220 implementation of VT52 mode was not
kind to the VTEDIT TECO macro on OS/8 (I ended up with a real VT52 so
I "solved" that problem).

-ethan

Re: Any faithful VT100 Emulators?

[John Wilson via cctalk]

On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 09:23:52AM -0400, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
>Putty seems to be a
>repeat suggestion but it's not for my platforms.

PuTTY interprets ESC [?7l in a weirdly wrong way -- instead of disabling
autowrap (which is already a half-documented feature that's implemented
differently on the VT100, VT101, and VT102, likely by accident), it makes
autowrap work in a different, incorrect way.  Editors trip over that since
they can't be afraid to use column 80.

John Wilson
D Bit

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 21 March 2017 at 18:32, Ray Arachelian via cctalk
 wrote:
> (And meanwhile AAPL is busy, or was, getting rid of all GPL stuff in its
> OS.)

Darwin is mostly BSD-licensed and includes significant quantities of
code from FreeBSD, which is why Apple hired Jordan Hubbard.

I'm not aware of any significant amount of GPL code in either. Linux
has a regrettable history of nicking BSD-licensed code and slapping
the GPL on it, but not the other way round, AFAIK.

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Mar 22, 2017, at 10:04 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk  
> wrote:
> ...
> I'm not aware of any significant amount of GPL code in either. Linux
> has a regrettable history of nicking BSD-licensed code and slapping
> the GPL on it, but not the other way round, AFAIK.

I think taking BSD code and releasing a copy under GPL is technically 
permitted, though silly because the original BSD release would still apply so 
the GPL virus doesn't stick.  Of course, if you modify the original and license 
those mods under GPL, that makes a difference, that limits access to the mods 
(but only the mods).

paul

RE: Pair of Twiggys

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Paul Koning via 
cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 10:09 AM
To: Liam Proven; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Pair of Twiggys

> On Mar 22, 2017, at 10:04 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk  
> wrote:
> ...
> I'm not aware of any significant amount of GPL code in either. Linux
> has a regrettable history of nicking BSD-licensed code and slapping
> the GPL on it, but not the other way round, AFAIK.

I think taking BSD code and releasing a copy under GPL is technically 
permitted, though silly because the original BSD release would still apply so 
the GPL virus doesn't stick.  Of course, if you modify the original and license 
those mods under GPL, that makes a difference, that limits access to the mods 
(but only the mods).

__

As long as they retain the original Copyright notice as required by that 
Copyright
which seems to me to be a direct conflict if you then tried to put the GPL in 
there
too.

bill

RE: booting os/8

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of W2HX via cctalk 
[cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 11:49 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts (cctalk@classiccmp.org)
Subject: booting os/8

Hi folks,

I have a PDP-8/e that I've been working on. I have completed construction of 
AK6DN's RX01/02 emulator. I got to the step tonight where I was trying to boot 
an OS/8 disk image and nothing was happening. I realized that I do not have the 
bootstrap diode board in my 8/e so begin the bootstrap triggered by the "SW" 
switch.

Does anyone have the program I can toggle in for the bootloader? What I found 
is somewhat confusing. Here is a discussion on this topic.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.sys.pdp8/RX01$20boot|sort:relevance/alt.sys.pdp8/9-GCoA0PCLA/370T3R-Ru_AJ

It seems one fellow was attempting to edit/improve the bootloader of another 
fellow. I was wondering if anyone has distilled this into something simple. At 
the moment, I care only about booting from RX01-Disk0.

Any pointers greatly appreciated. Thanks
Eugene W2HX
___

Well, I am sure glad someone posted this.  I had never heard of the work done 
by AK6DN and have considered
looking into such a project in the past.  

So, has anyone looked at someting sililar for RL drives?

bill

RE: booting os/8

[william degnan via cctalk]

>
> Well, I am sure glad someone posted this.  I had never heard of the work
done by AK6DN and have considered
> looking into such a project in the past.
>
> So, has anyone looked at someting sililar for RL drives?
>
> bill
>
>
>
>
I only know how to boot RK05 drives off an pdp8e.  Do you have a
controller, did not know there was one for this combo.
Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net

RE: Any faithful VT100 Emulators?

[Jay West via cctalk]

Ethan wrote...

-

I'm following this thread because I too want a decent terminal emulator that
works with a variety of vintage text editors (that seems to be the torture
test) but for Linux or OS X.  Putty seems to be a repeat suggestion but it's
not for my platforms.

--

The most faithful vt100 emulation I've seen myself (not that I've done a big
study or anything) is SecureCRT from Van Dyke. It is a commercial product,
but about the only commercial product I've decided is worth the cost. I use
it daily and pay for upgrades and new releases gladly.

 

I do know that they came out with a version for OSX a while back. I expect
that to be robust. There is a version for Linux, never tried that as I'm a
FreeBSD zealot. There is also an iphone/ipad app by secureCRT and I've used
it in a few pinches but never on a classic system. And the company has
actually heard of VMS ;)

 

Their support is off-the-charts. On more than one occasion I've emailed them
asking for this or that... and several times I've seen it implemented on the
next release. They actively listen and implement.

 

If the linux and OSX and app versions are as good as the windows one... it's
worth a shot.

 

J

 

Re: booting os/8

[Don North via cctalk]

On 3/22/2017 10:47 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:


From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of W2HX via cctalk 
[cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 11:49 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts (cctalk@classiccmp.org)
Subject: booting os/8

Hi folks,

I have a PDP-8/e that I've been working on. I have completed construction of AK6DN's 
RX01/02 emulator. I got to the step tonight where I was trying to boot an OS/8 disk image 
and nothing was happening. I realized that I do not have the bootstrap diode board in my 
8/e so begin the bootstrap triggered by the "SW" switch.

Does anyone have the program I can toggle in for the bootloader? What I found 
is somewhat confusing. Here is a discussion on this topic.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.sys.pdp8/RX01$20boot|sort:relevance/alt.sys.pdp8/9-GCoA0PCLA/370T3R-Ru_AJ

It seems one fellow was attempting to edit/improve the bootloader of another 
fellow. I was wondering if anyone has distilled this into something simple. At 
the moment, I care only about booting from RX01-Disk0.

Any pointers greatly appreciated. Thanks
Eugene W2HX
___

Well, I am sure glad someone posted this.  I had never heard of the work done 
by AK6DN and have considered
looking into such a project in the past.

So, has anyone looked at someting sililar for RL drives?

bill


Look here:   http://www.vcfed.org/forum/blog.php?12663-AK6DN   for info on my 
Arduino based RX02 emulator using a microSD card.
Works on RX11/RXV11/RX8E as RX01, RX211/RXV21/RX28 as RX02. Passes DEC hardware 
diagnostics.

Reinhard has done an FPGA based RL01/2 drive emulator, see:   
http://www.pdp11gy.com/indexE.html#file:///E:/homepage/indexE.html

Don
aka AK6DN

Re: Any faithful VT100 Emulators?

[John H. Reinhardt via cctalk]

On 3/22/2017 9:23 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:

I'm following this thread because I too want a decent terminal
emulator that works with a variety of vintage text editors (that seems
to be the torture test) but for Linux or OS X.  Putty seems to be a
repeat suggestion but it's not for my platforms.

-ethan



On OS X 10.9 and 10.11 I've had pretty good results from a terminal emulator called 
Zoc from Em-Tec   It's a guy in Germany 
and he has a couple products, but I think ZOC is his main thing.  It runs on both 
Windows and OS X.  It's not free ($79.99) but, for me it was better than anything 
else.  I tried the current Ericon products for the Mac, and they aren't free either 
and are a considerable bit more expensive and WAY slower.  ZOC is pretty fast.  I 
also used ITerm/iTerm2 but neither of them could do serial ports.  ZOC can talk to 
systems using many protocols, serial included.

The author is good at communication and willing to discuss problems and fixes.  
I talked to him initially about some of the keyboard mapping and he was very 
good about it.

For Linux I've always heard use xterm (Mac, too but I didn't want to run X 
windows if I didn't have to).

John H. Reinhardt

Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

Hi,



I’ve posted this to the VCF too…apologies for cross-posting.


I’d be grateful for any guidance or comments anyone could give me on this
problem.


Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8 inch
floppy disks.  They want to see what’s on them, or at least to archive
them.  They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the
software was used to write the files.  They may be CP/M, or some other
format entirely.


I’ve got little experience with 8 inch drives or disk formats.  However I
have got a bare 8 inch floppy drive (a Mitsubishi M2896-63 Half Height
8inch DSDD), and also a CP/M computer with 8 inch drives (A Panasonic
JD-850M).  I’m thinking it might be an interesting challenge/project to see
if I can read these disks and get files off.


However, I imagine given all the unknowns it won’t be easy…perhaps even
impossible


I see two possible approaches.  One is to wire up the 8 inch drive to an
MS-DOS machine.  I’ll have to build/get a PSU for the drive so it can
supply the necessary 24 Volts required.  I’ll also have to make up a
special drive cable.   That info is available.  In fact, Chuck gave me some
tips a year or so ago.   However, once I’ve got the drive successfully
wired up, I then need to somehow analysis the disks to see what format they
are in.  Does anyone know of any software that will do this?  I’m aware of
disk22, for reading KNOWN CP/M formats but is there anything out there that
will analyse a disk from scratch?  Search the web has thrown up a few
possibilies (MMCPC, Cpmtools) but I haven’t explored them at all.


The second approach is to use the Panasonic JD-850M, and find a CP/M
program that will analyse an “unknown” 8 inch disk and read files from said
disks into the CP/M environment.  I’d somehow get the program into one of
my Panasonic 8 inch disks (just how, I’ll need to figure out).  I’d also
need to figure out how to get the files out of that environment also.


Anyway, has anyone else faced this kind of challenge and what are your
thoughts?  I don’t want to start unless I at least have some chance of
success.  I’m not hopeful.  The more I read the more you seem to need real
forensic skills and something like Kyroflux that works at low-level.


Thanks


Terry (Tez)

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 03/22/2017 03:49 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:

> Anyway, has anyone else faced this kind of challenge and what are
> your thoughts?  I don’t want to start unless I at least have some
> chance of success.  I’m not hopeful.  The more I read the more you
> seem to need real forensic skills and something like Kyroflux that
> works at low-level.


I do it all the time.   There are more variations out there than you'd
otherwise think.   Not everything looks like DOS or CP/M, by a long shot.

I just received a shipment of hard-sector Wang 8 inchers, along with a
bunch of 8" soft-sector Displaywriter floppies.   Neither is CP/M or
DOS--or anything that Tandy ever built.

If I don't know what's on the disk (i.e. unlabeled), I'll start by using
an MS-DOS machine than can handle SD floppies--assuming that they're
soft-sector.

After that, I'll pull out my Catweasel-equipped system and crunch the
raw pulses--you could be dealing with MMFM or GCR, for example.

--Chuck

RE: booting os/8

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Don North via cctalk 
[cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 5:30 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: booting os/8

On 3/22/2017 10:47 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> 
> From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of W2HX via cctalk 
> [cctalk@classiccmp.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 11:49 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts (cctalk@classiccmp.org)
> Subject: booting os/8
>
> Hi folks,
>
> I have a PDP-8/e that I've been working on. I have completed construction of 
> AK6DN's RX01/02 emulator. I got to the step tonight where I was trying to 
> boot an OS/8 disk image and nothing was happening. I realized that I do not 
> have the bootstrap diode board in my 8/e so begin the bootstrap triggered by 
> the "SW" switch.
>
> Does anyone have the program I can toggle in for the bootloader? What I found 
> is somewhat confusing. Here is a discussion on this topic.
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.sys.pdp8/RX01$20boot|sort:relevance/alt.sys.pdp8/9-GCoA0PCLA/370T3R-Ru_AJ
>
> It seems one fellow was attempting to edit/improve the bootloader of another 
> fellow. I was wondering if anyone has distilled this into something simple. 
> At the moment, I care only about booting from RX01-Disk0.
>
> Any pointers greatly appreciated. Thanks
> Eugene W2HX
> ___
>
> Well, I am sure glad someone posted this.  I had never heard of the work done 
> by AK6DN and have considered
> looking into such a project in the past.
>
> So, has anyone looked at someting sililar for RL drives?
>
> bill

Look here:   http://www.vcfed.org/forum/blog.php?12663-AK6DN   for info on my 
Arduino based RX02 emulator using a microSD card.
Works on RX11/RXV11/RX8E as RX01, RX211/RXV21/RX28 as RX02. Passes DEC hardware 
diagnostics.

Reinhard has done an FPGA based RL01/2 drive emulator, see:   
http://www.pdp11gy.com/indexE.html#file:///E:/homepage/indexE.html

Don
aka AK6DN
__

I saw that.  I ordered a set of boards from OSHPark today.  Once they come I 
will see about ordering the
parts and building at least one.  I may wish I had more controillers. :-)

I will take a look at the FPGA solution.  But I still have to ask, is there any 
reason why it could not be done
with an Arduimo like the RX emulator?  I haven't researched it deeply, but I 
never thought the RL drive
itnerface was all that complex.

bill

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:

Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8 inch
floppy disks.  They want to see what???s on them, or at least to archive
them.  They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the
software was used to write the files.  They may be CP/M, or some other
format entirely.
Anyway, has anyone else faced this kind of challenge and what are your
thoughts?  I don???t want to start unless I at least have some chance of
success.  I???m not hopeful.  The more I read the more you seem to need real
forensic skills and something like Kyroflux that works at low-level.


How much work are you willing to put into it?

I used homemade tools to read and display sectors, but
you can accomplish quite a bit with whatever tools you have.

The PC is a relatively known quantity, and easy enough to work with.
Your CP/M machine, unless you are real lucky and it's the same or 8" SSSD, 
is going to be a little harder, until you know what FDC your CP/M machine 
uses, at what addresses, etc.



On machines with a Western Digital disk controller, such as TRS80 
(try using Trakcess), it is possible to do a TRACK READ, and look at that.  On 
machines with a flux transition board (kryoflux, catweasel, Central Point 
Option board), you can look at the raw image of the track.



On the PC, try to read a sector.   Even an MS-DOS DIR command gives some 
clues.
If you get BIOS error #2 (Address Mark not found), then you have the wrong 
density or encoding.


If you get BIOS error #4 (Sector Not Found), then you've got the right 
density.  That means that it sees what it recognizes as being sectors; 
they just aren't the one that you asked for.


If it is SD (FM) then SOME PC FDCs can read it, some not.
If it is DD (MFM) and 128 bytes per sector, then some PC FDCs can read it, 
some not.
If it is DD (MFM) and not 128 bytes per sector, then most PC FDCs can read 
it.
If it is MMFM, GCR, or something else, then PC FDC can not do it.  But a 
flux transition board (kryoflux, catweasel, etc.) might be able.


With 22Disk, XenoCopy, ImageDisk, etc. try various formats.  You MIGHT get 
lucky, particularly if it is 8" SSSD, but assuming that you don't 
get instant success, looking at what errors you get, you may be able to 
ascertain the bytes per sector, based on which formats don't balk at 
reading a sector.


If it happens to be 512 bytes per sector, then you can write some minor 
code with INT13h to read sectors.

If it is not 512 bytes per sector, then you will also need to hit INT1Eh.


Once you know the bytes per sector, check for the number of sectors per 
track.  There will only be a few possibilities for any given sector size.

Check whether any sectors are readable on the second side of the disk.
You can normally tell whether it is single or double sided by the position 
of the index hole on the disk, but there are some exceptions.


Watch out, that some disks number sectors from 0, some from 1, and some 
have special numbering, such as numbering from 81h or having an invalid 
value in the head number field of the sector header (particularly on the 
second side).  (All of which could give you BIOS error #4, but not error #2)



Once you can read sectors, the very first sector is always interesting. 
It will typically contain the bootstrap loader, which often has a text 
message to display!



Start looking for what might be the directory.
On MS-DOS, that will USUALLY start in the first track, with a boot sector, 
FATs, then directory entries.


On CP/M, it will USUALLY be in the first 3 or 4 tracks more often on the 
first side, but not always.


On "Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC", it will be near the "seek center".
Don Maslin once sent me copies of sectors near the middle of an NEC 8" 
disk.  It was surprisingly easy to calculate from their content which 
sectors would contain each file.


You may not find a recognizable or decipherable directory, in which case, 
you copy every sector, and start by looking for any strings of text.
If no text, then look to see if any of it makes sense as machine language 
of whatever processor might be in the source machine.


Be aware that a few disk formats, such as Superbrain, invert all of the 
bytes of each sector.




Once you've got sectors, speak up, and we'll give you more things to look 
at.

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 03/22/2017 04:42 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> Once you've got sectors, speak up, and we'll give you more things to 
> look at.

Fred, how about the image of a Compugraphic typesetter floppy I have?
It uses Hebrew for its code set.

Feel up to it?

--Chuck

Re: booting os/8

[Don North via cctalk]

On 3/22/2017 4:25 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:

Look here:   http://www.vcfed.org/forum/blog.php?12663-AK6DN   for info on my 
Arduino based RX02 emulator using a microSD card.
Works on RX11/RXV11/RX8E as RX01, RX211/RXV21/RX28 as RX02. Passes DEC hardware 
diagnostics.

Reinhard has done an FPGA based RL01/2 drive emulator, see:   
http://www.pdp11gy.com/indexE.html#file:///E:/homepage/indexE.html

Don
aka AK6DN
__

I saw that.  I ordered a set of boards from OSHPark today.  Once they come I 
will see about ordering the
parts and building at least one.  I may wish I had more controillers. :-)

I will take a look at the FPGA solution.  But I still have to ask, is there any 
reason why it could not be done
with an Arduimo like the RX emulator?  I haven't researched it deeply, but I 
never thought the RL drive
itnerface was all that complex.

bill



If you are still interested I still have blank PCBs for $10 each (either 2n7K or 
8641 based), plus Sparkfun microSD adapters $5 ea, and then shipping.


OSHpark is good (I use them for proto) but it will cost you something like $75 
for three boards since they are 4 layer. Let me know if you are interested.


The RL0x interface is very different and requires some kind of high speed signal 
decoder to implement (Reinhard did it in an FPGA plus an embedded CPU).


The RX0x interface is driven by the drive as the master, so no high speed logic 
is required on the Arduino side, just bit banging I/O ports.


Don

Re: booting os/8

[Don North via cctalk]

On 3/22/2017 5:03 PM, Don North wrote:

On 3/22/2017 4:25 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
Look here: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/blog.php?12663-AK6DN   for info on my 
Arduino based RX02 emulator using a microSD card.
Works on RX11/RXV11/RX8E as RX01, RX211/RXV21/RX28 as RX02. Passes DEC 
hardware diagnostics.


Reinhard has done an FPGA based RL01/2 drive emulator, see: 
http://www.pdp11gy.com/indexE.html#file:///E:/homepage/indexE.html


Don
aka AK6DN
__

I saw that.  I ordered a set of boards from OSHPark today.  Once they come I 
will see about ordering the

parts and building at least one.  I may wish I had more controillers. :-)

I will take a look at the FPGA solution.  But I still have to ask, is there 
any reason why it could not be done
with an Arduimo like the RX emulator?  I haven't researched it deeply, but I 
never thought the RL drive

itnerface was all that complex.

bill



If you are still interested I still have blank PCBs for $10 each (either 2n7K 
or 8641 based), plus Sparkfun microSD adapters $5 ea, and then shipping.


OSHpark is good (I use them for proto) but it will cost you something like $75 
for three boards since they are 4 layer. Let me know if you are interested.


The RL0x interface is very different and requires some kind of high speed 
signal decoder to implement (Reinhard did it in an FPGA plus an embedded CPU).


The RX0x interface is driven by the drive as the master, so no high speed 
logic is required on the Arduino side, just bit banging I/O ports.


Don

Just checked my stock ... I have (5) 8641 based PCB, and (10) 2n7k based PCB 
left, and corresponding microSD adapters.


The 2n7K vs 8641 designs are functionally compatible (100% same software); the 
revised 2n7K design uses discrete transistor O.C. drivers and
HCT14 RCVRs in place of the 3x8641 (which are more or less unobtanium at this 
point, unless you have a well stocked DEC stockroom).


The two designs work the same, there is no discernible difference between them 
operationally.


As an aside I source Arduino Mega2560s from Amazon, you can get 100% a 100% 
compatible clone for $10-$12 vs $45 for a 'genuine' Arduino Mega2560.


Don

Z-8000 something on eBay

[Ken Seefried via cctalk]

I don't have any idea what this is but it appears to have Z-8000
CPU+MMU chips.  Perhaps an Onyx or S8000 CPU card?  I know some folks
here are in to that sort of thing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Vintage-DSC-MP-4-EPC-Rev-D-K-Expansion-Board-Card-PCB-for-Mini-Computer/152475939021

KJ

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Once you've got sectors, speak up, and we'll give you more things to
look at.


On Wed, 22 Mar 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

Fred, how about the image of a Compugraphic typesetter floppy I have?
It uses Hebrew for its code set.
Feel up to it?


Nope.
You're much better at it than I am.
I was just trying to be encouraging, and suggesting some preliminary 
things that he could start with.



Some disks were easy.
And there were plenty that I never could figure out.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Sun E10000 Historical Enquiry

[Ken Seefried via cctalk]

> Heck, I'd be fascinated to talk to anyone who purchased
> the machines during their lifespan (1997-2001) and could tell me what you
> used them for.

Not the e10k, but Cingular Wireless used clustered e15k's as Oracle
database engines.  Dozens of them.  Very impressive performance.

KJ

Re: Z-8000 something on eBay

[dwight via cctalk]

Its not an Olivetti M20 but might be a M30 or M40. These were Mini class 
machines.

It would be towards the last of the Z8000 with a MMU.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Ken Seefried via 
cctalk 
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 6:26:38 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Z-8000 something on eBay

I don't have any idea what this is but it appears to have Z-8000
CPU+MMU chips.  Perhaps an Onyx or S8000 CPU card?  I know some folks
here are in to that sort of thing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Vintage-DSC-MP-4-EPC-Rev-D-K-Expansion-Board-Card-PCB-for-Mini-Computer/152475939021

KJ

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

Thanks Guys,

Now I'm intimidated (-:

Just kiddingthat's useful stuff Fred.  Thanks for taking the time to
type all that out.

I'll give it a go...and see what I can see.  If anything it's a good excuse
for me to wire the drive up.  I'd like to image those Panasonic disks one
day for posterity and at least I should be able to do that.

Chuck, in the highly likely event of the formats NOT being common CP/M or
DOS ones (i.e. ones I could probably manage), I'll give these guys your
email (-:

Cheers

Terry (Tez)



On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Once you've got sectors, speak up, and we'll give you more things to
>>> look at.
>>>
>>
> On Wed, 22 Mar 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>
>> Fred, how about the image of a Compugraphic typesetter floppy I have?
>> It uses Hebrew for its code set.
>> Feel up to it?
>>
>
> Nope.
> You're much better at it than I am.
> I was just trying to be encouraging, and suggesting some preliminary
> things that he could start with.
>
>
> Some disks were easy.
> And there were plenty that I never could figure out.
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
>

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 03/22/2017 08:39 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:

> Chuck, in the highly likely event of the formats NOT being common
> CP/M or DOS ones (i.e. ones I could probably manage), I'll give these
> guys your email (-:

Tez,

Here's what I would do in your situation.

If the disks are hard-sectored, forget it, unless you have the system
that wrote them.

If they're soft-sectored, dig through your pile of PC "tweeners" using
Dave Dunfield's "TestFDC" and see if you can find one that does
single-density.

Then hook your 8" drive to the PC and use his ImageDisk to grab a copy.

That way, you can tinker with the image to figure out what's going on.
Failing that, you can pass the image to the list here and see if it
rings any bells.

http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm

--Chuck

For Sale: STM Pied Piper "Portable Computer"

[Sellam Ismail via cctalk]

I have for sale this fine STM Pied Piper, Z80 CP/M machine from Canada
circa 1983.  Please see details here:

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56872-STM-Pied-Piper-Portable-Computer&p=453120#post453120

Thanks!

Sellam