Re: Weird c. 1982 Onyx systems 68010-based UNIX minicomputer

[Chris Hanson]

On Apr 18, 2016, at 10:05 PM, Ian Finder  wrote:

> https://www.instagram.com/p/6GLEvutS_e/?taken-by=tr1nitr0n

Are those a 68450 DMAC and 68451 MMU on the board next to the 68010?

  -- Chris

Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)

[Corey Cohen]

> On Apr 18, 2016, at 10:11 PM, Eric Korpela  wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
>> 
>> I did some research among the antique fan collectors on the web.
>> Here's what's been recommended, in no particular order:
> 
> And if you're looking to preserve an extremely valuable museum piece and
> need the ultimate in non-reactive oil or grease, a perfluorinated polyether
> (PFPE) "oil" or one with PTFE nanoparticles is virtually guaranteed not to
> react with anything you might find a computer.  But it is very pricey.  $25
> a gram for Brayco 815z "oil" and $28 a gram for Braycote 601EF or 602EF
> (with MoS2).  The solvent you need in order to remove them is $0.25 a
> gram.   But a gram of this stuff goes a long way.  I'd go with 602EF for
> fan bearings.
> 
> But it does somewhat reduce the need to worry about what happens if the
> "oil" gets hot or hits rubber or paper or plastic.  It doesn't dry out,
> evaporate, or gum up at normal temperatures, since it's teflon and
> molysufide microbearings in liquid teflon.  I wouldn't buy it to use for a
> personal machine unless it was one of a kind, or someone at the lab was
> throwing out a tube of out-of-date braycote.  (Which hasn't been the case,
> I don't have a personal stash).

I have been waiting this thread out to see what options people are using.  

I like to use a product called SuperLube that I get at the gun store.   It's 
synthetic and I find it doesn't like to pickup dust like other types of lube.  
It works great on an AR-15, marine fish tank light fan bearing, and on disk 
drive rails.  Basically all extreme environment uses involving carbon, dirt, 
dust and salt water.

SuperLube is available in a tube and isn't very expensive like whale sperm, I 
mean oil.  

Cheers,
Corey

corey cohen
uǝɥoɔ ʎǝɹoɔ

Re: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL

[Matt Patoray]

Very cool,

Glad it was able to be saved, sounds like a neat system, do you have any
specs on it, that you can share?

On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 1:07 PM, Ian Finder  wrote:

> Thank you all, and thanks Jay West for this wonderful venue.
>
> Less than 24 hours later the machine is spoken for, and I'm very excited
> about where it is going.
>
> Another day, another rescue... :)
>
> On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Ian Finder  wrote:
>
> > Does not require three phase.
> >
> > Complete system, includes sirius video and other fun stuff.
> > RealityEngine2
> >
> > Needs to be gone in a week or two- had made other arrangements but they
> > have fallen through.
> >
> > Call Ian - two two four 659 four two zero 4
> >
> >
> > --
> >Ian Finder
> >ian.fin...@gmail.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
>Ian Finder
>(206) 395-MIPS
>ian.fin...@gmail.com
>



-- 
Matt Patoray
Owner, MSP Productions
mspproducti...@gmail.com
KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign

Re: Weird c. 1982 Onyx systems 68010-based UNIX minicomputer

[geneb]

On Mon, 18 Apr 2016, Ian Finder wrote:


I don't really need anything- the machine was new in box and works
correctly. It has media- but I'd love more context if people know it. Sure,
it's a very boring generic M68K box, but I can barely find any record of it
existing.

While (probably) not directly related to that machine, the only other Onyx 
I've ever heard of was in the early to mid 80's.  It ran a multi-user 
Citadel (bbs) and was located somewhere in King County.  The name of the 
system escapes me.


g.


--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)

[Tapley, Mark]

On Apr 18, 2016, at 11:15 PM, drlegendre .  wrote:

> Unless the Braycote products are directly interchangeable with Sperm Whale
> oil, how is your comparison even remotely relevant?
> 
> They are rendered from entirely different sources. Whale oil is a natural,
> animal-derived product that pretty much went out with the depletion of the
> resources (and finally, international treaties). P/TFE and MoS2 were
> formulated in industrial laboratories, and to this day, are turned out by
> industrial processes.

Braycote has enough nice properties that it is also (often) the lubricant of 
choice for a lot of space applications - which in many cases justify its (ahem) 
astronomical price. Its low out-gassing in vacuum and lack of mobility are huge 
assets there. I have not personally used it in any terrestrial applications, 
nor are any of my machines pricey enough to warrant it, so I can’t advocate one 
way or the other for its use on a classic computer.
- Mark

ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits

[Swift Griggs]

Well, after discussing all things that can go wrong with a floppy disk to
corrupt or destroy it, it makes me wonder about another vintage media
format: the cart.  

How long will they last?

Why does blowing on them help? (mosture? cleaning action?)

Are some better than others in terms of longevity?

Can they be refurbished ?

Remember when folks would publish apps on carts to enhance the copy
protection ?

Remember the ones like Starfox for the SNES that had coprocessors embedded
on them? Those were neat. 

Seen the crazy prices for rare Neo Geo carts? $400 bucks for "Twinkle Star
Sprites" ? Sure!

I have some 90's consoles in my collection and I fondly remember a few
systems that took carts that family and friends owned back in the 80's and
90's.  I thought the Colecovision Adam was awesome.  My cousin had one and I
was so jealous.  The C64, 80's 8bit Atari PCs, the IBM PC Jr, and others all
had cartridge ports, too.

-Swift

Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)

[Fred Cisin]

Unless the Braycote products are directly interchangeable with Sperm
Whale oil, how is your comparison even remotely relevant?


Well whale oil is merely an example illustrating that there are other 
expensive and/or hard to come by lubricants.

Re: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits

[Paul Koning]

> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:53 AM, Swift Griggs  wrote:
> 
> 
> Well, after discussing all things that can go wrong with a floppy disk to
> corrupt or destroy it, it makes me wonder about another vintage media
> format: the cart.  

You mean a ROM cartridge as opposed to a magnetic tape cartridge, right?  
("Cart" is also broadcast radio slang for magnetic tape cartridges, vaguely 
like an 8-track tape in appearance.)

> How long will they last?

That would depend on the ROM type: mask, PROM, EEPROM.  I don't know which was 
used.  Fuse PROM supposedly may suffer from "fuse regrowth" depending on 
manufacturer and process used.  But if well made I would expect them to last as 
long as any other solid state electronics.

> Why does blowing on them help? (mosture? cleaning action?)

Placebo effect?  :-)  I can't see how it makes any difference, unless the 
contacts are dirty.  If they are, they should be cleaned, with a proper 
cleaning method.

paul

Re: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL

[ethan]

Very cool,
Glad it was able to be saved, sounds like a neat system, do you have any
specs on it, that you can share?


Warms my SGI fanboy side to see these systems being saved!

--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Paul Koning wrote:
> You mean a ROM cartridge as opposed to a magnetic tape cartridge, right? 
> ("Cart" is also broadcast radio slang for magnetic tape cartridges,
> vaguely like an 8-track tape in appearance.)

ROM carts, yes.  I know what you mean about the old radio "carts" too.  I've
seen them, but that's about it.

> That would depend on the ROM type: mask, PROM, EEPROM.  I don't know which
> was used.  Fuse PROM supposedly may suffer from "fuse regrowth" depending

Huh.  Weird.  I'll have to see how long that takes.  My guess is that they
will outlast anyone who cares enough to collect them, but maybe not.

> > Why does blowing on them help? (moisture? cleaning action?)
> Placebo effect?  :-)  I can't see how it makes any difference, unless the
> contacts are dirty.  If they are, they should be cleaned, with a proper
> cleaning method.

No disrespect, but it sounds like you've never owned an older 8-bit NES with
some well worn cartridges.  There is no doubt in my mind that blowing on
those gives a much higher chance of making a flaky cart work right.  I'm
sure others can back me up on this.  It's got to do something, because the
effect is quite dramatic.  Insert the same cart 20 times, it'll fail 20
times.  Blow on it once and it works.  My guess is that the thin layer of
moisture/condensate is the key.  Perhaps it helps overcome some resistance
due to oxidization of the cart edge connector ? This effect, in fact,
inspired the NES "Blow me" tee shirt here: http://www.bustedtees.com/blowme

Swift

Re: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits

[ethan]

How long will they last?


Probably a long time, but dump them all anyways! You never know!


Why does blowing on them help? (mosture? cleaning action?)


The moisure makes the connection work better or something, so that is 
where it comes from. Cleaning the contacts is best, and if it's a NES you 
can replace the "finger module" or the slots on other systems.



Are some better than others in terms of longevity?


The card edge connectors would probably be where the reliability comes in.


Can they be refurbished ?


Depending on the system there are reproduction labels made. A lot of the 
older game system carts you will find the labels coming off or 
deteriorating. It depends on how they were stored I'd guess. Moisture and 
heat.



Remember when folks would publish apps on carts to enhance the copy
protection ?


I think it was used more because the intro cost to the system was cheaper. 
Floppy drives were expensive, you could sell carts to people with basic 
systems.


There were units for some of the game systems like the SNES that sat on 
top, and allowed you to copy the rom cart contents to floppy disks. Then 
you could re-load the contents of the rom cart from the floppy disks into 
RAM in the "console copier" and then play the pirated games. Also on the 
home computers people dumped rom carts and made binary executables.



Remember the ones like Starfox for the SNES that had coprocessors embedded
on them? Those were neat.


Yes, I think there were only two for the SNES but I could be wrong. Check 
out Pitfall II on the Atari 2600, it has a sound processor in the cart.


In the documentary "Stella at 20" the engineers of the Atari 2600 talk 
about how they cut ?4? pins off the Atari 2600 cart to shave costs. The 
next year the costs were so much lower it was a neglible price cut, but 
had the pins been left there it would have allowed more memory space to be 
accessable in the cart leading to tons of expansion possibilities.



Re: Rare Neo Geo carts
Sprites" ? Sure!


Yep, have a 4 slot MVS at home and run a 161 in 1 cart in it. Sure I'd 
love to have piles of Magical Drop 3's and stuff, but just not gonna 
embrace the video-games-are-beanie-babies thing. Some of the N64 and SNES 
games are more now than they were new.


But if you want to see real bubble, look into collecting A list pinball 
titles.



I have some 90's consoles in my collection and I fondly remember a few
systems that took carts that family and friends owned back in the 80's and
90's.  I thought the Colecovision Adam was awesome.  My cousin had one and I
was so jealous.  The C64, 80's 8bit Atari PCs, the IBM PC Jr, and others all
had cartridge ports, too.


Yep, and the same damn games on all of them :-) AtariSoft! Parker Bros! 
Etc. Frogger and the Qbert and the Centipede and the Defender.



--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2016-Apr-19, at 8:13 AM, Paul Koning wrote:

> 
>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:53 AM, Swift Griggs  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Well, after discussing all things that can go wrong with a floppy disk to
>> corrupt or destroy it, it makes me wonder about another vintage media
>> format: the cart.  
> 
> You mean a ROM cartridge as opposed to a magnetic tape cartridge, right?  
> ("Cart" is also broadcast radio slang for magnetic tape cartridges, vaguely 
> like an 8-track tape in appearance.)
> 
>> How long will they last?
> 
> That would depend on the ROM type: mask, PROM, EEPROM.  I don't know which 
> was used.  Fuse PROM supposedly may suffer from "fuse regrowth" depending on 
> manufacturer and process used.  But if well made I would expect them to last 
> as long as any other solid state electronics.

PROMs tended to be relatively smaller in capacity than the other options and 
not likely to be found in a cart.

By the time you get into the production volumes of mast carts and large 
manufacturers, mask ROMS are going to be the economic preference.
As such, carts are going to be quite reliable - more or less as reliable as any 
other piece of hardware involving ICs and worked contacts.




>> Why does blowing on them help? (mosture? cleaning action?)
> 
> Placebo effect?  :-)  I can't see how it makes any difference, unless the 
> contacts are dirty.  If they are, they should be cleaned, with a proper 
> cleaning method.
> 
>   paul
> 

Re: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits

[Chuck Guzis]

On 04/19/2016 08:13 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
> 
>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:53 AM, Swift Griggs 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Well, after discussing all things that can go wrong with a floppy
>> disk to corrupt or destroy it, it makes me wonder about another
>> vintage media format: the cart.
> 
> You mean a ROM cartridge as opposed to a magnetic tape cartridge,
> right?  ("Cart" is also broadcast radio slang for magnetic tape
> cartridges, vaguely like an 8-track tape in appearance.)

...As opposed to the cart filled with listings, tapes and card trays
that I/O clerks pushed around.   Such a card full of 9 track tapes would
probably qualify as a storage medium.

Or the cartridge filled with buckshot that you'd liked to have used on
the I/O clerk who dumped your tray of cards off the cart...


--Chuck

Re: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, et...@757.org wrote:
> > Glad it was able to be saved, sounds like a neat system, do you have any
> > specs on it, that you can share?
> Warms my SGI fanboy side to see these systems being saved!

I agree. I'm just glad I don't have to find the space or lift the damn thing
:-)

The Onyx is rad. However it's cool-to-weight ratio suffers with comparison
to an Indy or O2. So, that's why I own those, instead. The Tezro is a bit
in-between. It's about 2x to 3x the size of an O2, but it's still smaller
than an Onyx. However, that Onyx sounds like it's decked out with the
RealityEngine and the A/V option board (Sirrus) that was really fun &
flexible before digital video ruled. 

-Swift

Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)

[Noel Chiappa]

{Multiple replies packaged together to minimize list traffic...}


> From: Jon Elson

> If you open one of these up, make sure to oil the cotton packing to
> supply oil gradually to the bearing.

I don't see any sign of a cotton packing around it (but maybe it's just
sealed away where I can't see it). There is a gasket/washer of some sort of
packing material / felting at one end, but I suspect that's for dust
interception, not as an oil resevoir, as in the fan's normal operating
orientation, it's on the bottom.

Speaking of orientation, though: these fans, like most PDP-11 fans, send air
downwards. I was thinking of flipping them, to send the heat upwards (its
'natural' direction), but after pondering a bit, I'm not sure this is a good
idea: the air-flow on the intake side is diffuse, whereas on the output, it's
a concentrated, directed blast - better for cooling boards, etc.


> From: Chuck Guzis 

> I did some research among the antique fan collectors on the web.

Thanks very much for taking the time to do that; my only concern is to wonder
if their experience is applicable, since these things are turning an order of
magnitude faster than old household fans.

> Here's what's been recommended, in no particular order:
> ..
> 3-in-1 Electric Motor Oil (SAE 20)

That's what I've been working with so far, but I was wondering if it would
last without going gummy. If they're happy with it for the long term, that
sounds like it would be good for this too.


> From: Corey Cohen

> I like to use a product called SuperLube that I get at the gun store.
> It's synthetic and I find it doesn't like to pickup dust

Thanks for the tip; I'll see if I can find any here. Oddly enough, I had
found something called Hoppe's Lubricating Oil on my shelf - it's for
firearms and fishing reels, and explicitly claims that it "will not gum [or]
harden", which also sounds like it might similar to the above, and just
what's called for.

I had seen reference online to people using synthetic automatic transmission
fluid, but the stuff I looked at claimed to "stop leaks", which makes it
sounds like it contains some agent which hardens (or at least coagulates) when
exposed to air (although I would assume there was some exposure to air in the
transmission?), which is definitely not what is wanted!

Noel

Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 04/19/2016 08:52 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

> Thanks very much for taking the time to do that; my only concern is
> to wonder if their experience is applicable, since these things are
> turning an order of magnitude faster than old household fans.

Is it really that extreme?  Most US AC induction motors seem to be
spec-ed in the neighborhood of 1750 or 3500 RPM.  Series-wound
'universal" motors of course, are very different animals.

--Chuck

Re: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL

[ethan]

I agree. I'm just glad I don't have to find the space or lift the damn thing
:-)


Compared to IBM, Sun big iron, Cray big iron the SGI Origin 2000/Onyx2 and 
Challenge XL/Onyx are very friendly fridge sized computers! They roll 
easy, they're lightweight and not overbuilt. They use a simple 220v or 
240v or whatever outlet, and have bad-ass bargraphs on the front LCDs of 
the CPU load.


I think they're the best of the newer large computers!


The Onyx is rad. However it's cool-to-weight ratio suffers with comparison
to an Indy or O2. So, that's why I own those, instead. The Tezro is a bit
in-between. It's about 2x to 3x the size of an O2, but it's still smaller
than an Onyx. However, that Onyx sounds like it's decked out with the
RealityEngine and the A/V option board (Sirrus) that was really fun &
flexible before digital video ruled.


If I could find a cheap Tezro I'd have to add it to my collection.

The Octane (green, R12K, dual video) is heavy as hell. I mean, it's 
innocent looking and plastic and stuff. But oh man, so heavy. I gave away 
the dual 24" widescreen CRT 1920x1200 SGI monitors that came with it :-/ 
They were getting flyback arcing to frame. At the time I didn't know what 
it was but now after reparing arcade monitors I could remediate it.




--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL

[Ian Finder]

I love the Onyx rack.

Ethan wrote:
> I think they're the best of the newer large computers

They're something splendidly entertaining about a big honkin' graphical
workstation that you can roll up to and poke around the GUI on.

I have one of the full rack 3-phase ones in Seattle which, like the one I
gave away, has the Audio option.
J.P. (kiwigeek) helped me re-wire it to split phase, and I love showing
people Quake, Maya and Photoshop on this giant behemoth from 1993.

I hope the Chicago Onyx gets the love in it's new home that it deserves,
and I'm pretty confident that it will.

12 i860s to run the graphics! How absurd!

If we're rambling about SGIs now, my all time fav. is the Indigo 2 R1000
Max Impact. You see one, and it looks normal enough, but when you pop that
cover- there is so much logic packed into that box! It's one of the densest
machines I've ever encountered...


Cheers,

- Ian

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:07 AM,  wrote:

> I agree. I'm just glad I don't have to find the space or lift the damn
>> thing
>> :-)
>>
>
> Compared to IBM, Sun big iron, Cray big iron the SGI Origin 2000/Onyx2 and
> Challenge XL/Onyx are very friendly fridge sized computers! They roll easy,
> they're lightweight and not overbuilt. They use a simple 220v or 240v or
> whatever outlet, and have bad-ass bargraphs on the front LCDs of the CPU
> load.
>
> I think they're the best of the newer large computers!
>
> The Onyx is rad. However it's cool-to-weight ratio suffers with comparison
>> to an Indy or O2. So, that's why I own those, instead. The Tezro is a bit
>> in-between. It's about 2x to 3x the size of an O2, but it's still smaller
>> than an Onyx. However, that Onyx sounds like it's decked out with the
>> RealityEngine and the A/V option board (Sirrus) that was really fun &
>> flexible before digital video ruled.
>>
>
> If I could find a cheap Tezro I'd have to add it to my collection.
>
> The Octane (green, R12K, dual video) is heavy as hell. I mean, it's
> innocent looking and plastic and stuff. But oh man, so heavy. I gave away
> the dual 24" widescreen CRT 1920x1200 SGI monitors that came with it :-/
> They were getting flyback arcing to frame. At the time I didn't know what
> it was but now after reparing arcade monitors I could remediate it.
>
>
>
> --
> Ethan O'Toole
>
>


-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.fin...@gmail.com

Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)

[Tapley, Mark]

On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:52 AM, Noel Chiappa  wrote:

> Speaking of orientation, though: these fans, like most PDP-11 fans, send air
> downwards. I was thinking of flipping them, to send the heat upwards (its
> 'natural' direction), but after pondering a bit, I'm not sure this is a good
> idea: the air-flow on the intake side is diffuse, whereas on the output, it's
> a concentrated, directed blast - better for cooling boards, etc.

I share the sentiment. However, in many cases thermal engineers actually had 
something to do with the original design and they also know about heat rising. 
I would be careful about second-guessing the design, at least on 
well-engineered systems.

I reversed the fan on my NeXT 040 Cube a long time ago. That way air goes out 
through the Optical drive port, and does not pull dust into it. Shortly 
thereafter, I started getting very occasional read errors on the SCSI bus. I 
thought through the air pathway, and sure enough the SCSI chip was now 
*down*stream of the power supply. I put the fan back to its original 
orientation, and no problems since.  (The optical drive doesn’t work anyway, 
but I understand that is not a rare problem and in this case I don’t believe it 
is related to dust.)
- Mark

Re: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, et...@757.org wrote:
> > Why does blowing on them help? (mosture? cleaning action?)
> The moisure makes the connection work better or something, so that is
> where it comes from.  Cleaning the contacts is best, and if it's a NES you
> can replace the "finger module" or the slots on other systems.

It seems like both sides can get worn out.  I've seen carts that'd have
problems wherever you took them, even on nearly new NES units.  On the other
hand I've seen well-worn NES systems that could barely play a brand-new
cart.  I'm guessing that's where replacing the finger module would really
give you a new lease on life for your NES.

> > Are some better than others in terms of longevity?
> The card edge connectors would probably be where the reliability comes in.

It looked like some were plated with gold, some with tin, and others I
couldn't really tell (copper?  brass?).  I'm guessing gold-plated edge
connectors would be great, but who knows, maybe gold is too soft.  I'm not a
metallurgist or a EE, so I'm just speculating.

> A lot of the older game system carts you will find the labels coming off
> or deteriorating.  It depends on how they were stored I'd guess.  Moisture
> and heat.

Selling reproduction labels sounds like a cool side-job for someone with an
extra dye-sub printer laying around. 

> I think it was used more because the intro cost to the system was cheaper. 
> Floppy drives were expensive, you could sell carts to people with basic
> systems.

I didn't think of that.  That makes a lot of sense.  I was just a kid in the
80's.  Business sense wasn't something I had a lot of at 8 years old. :-)

> There were units for some of the game systems like the SNES that sat on
> top, and allowed you to copy the rom cart contents to floppy disks.

Yes!  I remember those.  I was in Jr.  High and I remember going to some
older kid's house (spoiled rich kid with a huge computer lab).  One of the
many things he owned that made my 12 year old eyes bug out was one of the
units you are describing.  He'd rent all the new games from Blockbuster
Video and then copy them off to 1.44MB 3.5" floppies.  They were always
called something like "Super Mega Duper" or some take-off on the game
console name with a bit of Asian flare from Hong Kong where they were made. 
What I wonder is where did people get them?  My family was too poor for such
things, but I still wonder where that kid got that gadget in the
pre-internet era.  Ads in the back of magazines or something ?

> > Remember the ones like Starfox for the SNES that had coprocessors embedded
> > on them? Those were neat.
> Yes, I think there were only two for the SNES but I could be wrong.

I think I remember reading the same thing somewhere. 

> Check out Pitfall II on the Atari 2600, it has a sound processor in the
> cart.

I just did. Neat. Here's the key excerpt from Wikipedia:

"The version developed for the Atari 2600 featured a four-part harmony music
soundtrack throughout the game, a first for the Atari 2600 platform.  This
was accomplished by building a custom chip called the "DPC" chip into the
cartridge.  This was also designed by game author David Crane."

How many game designers of today could/would design their own silicon?  I'm
thinking there isn't a Unity module for that. :-)

> The next year the costs were so much lower it was a neglible price cut,
> but had the pins been left there it would have allowed more memory space
> to be accessable in the cart leading to tons of expansion possibilities.

That was probably some business-weasels' idea.  They ruin everything.  Look
what they did to Commodore.  The could not physically produce and sell
enough Amigas when they died.  How can you f-up a business like that?  Wait
don't tell me, you let some Ivy-league CEO load up on debt, cut corners on
production, screw your vendors & partners, stall and cut R&D then just
continue making old hardware, and finally allow the trademark to be pass
through so many idle hands that the name becomes meaningless.  That seemed
to do it for Commodore.

> Yep, have a 4 slot MVS at home and run a 161 in 1 cart in it.

I have one of those MVS conversion consoles.  I would have got an AES, but
uhhh, not for the prices they go for.  I'd probably have to spend 2-10x as
much to get the same collection.  I just have 5 "real" carts of my favorites
(Samurai Showdown and the like).  I rarely use them as I also have the Stone
Age Gamer 161-in-1 rig.

> gonna embrace the video-games-are-beanie-babies thing. 

Same here.  Carts do make people more conducive to getting obsessive like
this, though.  You don't often see people getting that excited over 20 year
old (and probably corrupt floppies) PC game original materials.

> Some of the N64 and SNES games are more now than they were new.

Some Zelda games comes to mind.  I've seen the raw carts go pretty cheap
($15-20 bucks on ebay $20-50 bucks at local used shops), but some of the
special editions where people still h

Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)

[Eric Korpela]

On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 7:45 PM, drlegendre .  wrote:

> Forgive my ignorance..
>
> What could possibly justify a cost of $25,000 (US) for a liter of this
> Braycote material? Of course, I'm extrapolating - $25/gm, assuming
> 1000gm/l.
>

First, I'm not trying to justify it outside of special circumstances.  I'm
sure Castrol will tell you that it's difficult to manufacture (they spend a
lot of money figuring out how to make it without using CFCs).  It does have
special properties that the less expensive alternatives do not, primarily
it will not dry or gum up unless the building burns down.

>
> Sounds like a government contract rate to me. MoS2 and TFE-rich lubricants
> have been readily available for decades - and while they tend to be on the
> pricier side, I've seen nothing that touches $25-28/gm.
>

I think nothing justifies it until you're using it in a machine that is one
of a kind or worth spending that kind of money.  Other cheaper MoS2 and
TFE-rich lubricants don't necessarily have the chemical inertness, lifetime
or low vapor pressure.  If it still works after 25 years in orbit, it'll
work on your fan

Given that much of the physical damage to my micros and minis is from
incompatibility of the original (i.e. cheap) materials with each other or
degradation with time, if I had the cash to do so I would set a "thou shalt
use no petroleum based lubricants" rule and a "thou shalt use only
fluoropolymer elastomers" rule for replacement of rubber parts.

flea markets (was Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???)

[Al Kossow]

On 4/18/16 4:36 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> John Craig experienced a process that a friend called "the inevitable decline 
> of flea-markets".

two things have killed the electronics ones off in the Bay Area

eBay

and the nail in the coffin

the state of California requiring a sales number if you sell more than 3 times 
in a year.
https://www.boe.ca.gov/info/temporary_sellers.htm

I tried selling at "Foothill" once last year and the experience was so foul I 
decided never
to try it again.

Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)

[Eric Korpela]

On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 8:39 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

> What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale oil?
>

Quite a bit more than Braycote, I'm sure.  And it would be nowhere near as
good.  But if I were restoring a $25,000 machine, spending $250 on 10 grams
of Braycote wouldn't seem outrageous.  Sure it's more expensive the going
to the Texico station for a can of motor oil, but it's also not going to
eat through the decaying rubber belts within a few years.


>
> I'm very careful with PTFE-enhanced lubricants, such as TriFlow--they
> tend, for me, at least, to get gummy.


Braycote isn't a PTFE-enhanced petroleum based lubricant.  Those have all
the disadvantages of the base lubricant (which can evaporate or change
chemically), but with added PTFE.



>   A good petroleum oil should last
> decades in this particular application.


Probably.  You just shouldn't get it (or its evaporation or decomposition
products) on anything that that might react badly to them or get too warm.

RE: flea markets (was Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???)

[Ali]

> two things have killed the electronics ones off in the Bay Area
> 
> eBay

Well, eBay is killing itself slowly. Every year they make more and more
onerous and anti-buyer rules and policies. That coupled with the fact that
shipping rates are becoming unbearable is going to end eBay in electronics
in a few more years.

I know of a couple of flea markets here in SoCal but none are dedicated to
electronics and even when someone is selling electronics it is usually crap.
The reality is that this is a closed community for better or worse and the
numbers keep shrinking.

-Ali

Re: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL

[ethan]

They're something splendidly entertaining about a big honkin' graphical
workstation that you can roll up to and poke around the GUI on.


Only the Onyx series has graphics :-) Most of ours at NASA were headless 
with nothing but a serial console, and lots of CPUs. They crunched 
satellite data all day. 96 Processors on Origin 3800, Normally 32 IIRC on 
the Challenge XLs.



I have one of the full rack 3-phase ones in Seattle which, like the one I
gave away, has the Audio option.


I didn't know there was a 3 phase option. Was it an Onyx2 or Onyx?

My Cray uses 5 of the Sun E1 style Pioneer Magnetics 5000 watt 48vdc 
PSUs, and even it was single phase (although I had it sitting across 3 
phases just to get the power to it over a 30 amp cable.)



J.P. (kiwigeek) helped me re-wire it to split phase, and I love showing
people Quake, Maya and Photoshop on this giant behemoth from 1993.


Very cool!


If we're rambling about SGIs now, my all time fav. is the Indigo 2 R1000
Max Impact. You see one, and it looks normal enough, but when you pop that
cover- there is so much logic packed into that box! It's one of the densest
machines I've ever encountered...


Yes, crammed full. The video cards are stuffed!

--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???

[Evan Koblentz]

Sellam why has he retired??


I didn't say that. He simply stepped back from owning/managing VCF. 
He'll still be at VCF West and we invited him to be an exhibit judge.

ISO: VAX 11/750 RDM (L0006) and/or ECKAL diagnostic listing

[Josh Dersch]

Hey all --

Finally got the power supplies in my 11/750 humming again (after numerous
failures) and generally things are looking good -- it passes microverify (I
get the '%%' output at power-up) and most diagnostics (that I can run
without an RDM) are passing.

The ECKAL (Cache/TB) Diagnostic is failing, however; it runs for about a
second and then spits out:

3488   06

I have a spare L0003 board and it exhibits exactly the same behavior (also
swapped in a spare L0002, no change).  Socketed chips have been removed,
cleaned and replaced to no effect.

I'd like to track down an RDM (L0006) module (even if just to borrow one)
to run the more advanced diagnostics.  Failing that, a listing of the ECKAL
diagnostic would be very helpful in figuring out what it's reporting...

Thanks as always,
Josh

Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???

[william degnan]

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 1:29 PM, Evan Koblentz  wrote:

> Sellam why has he retired??
>>
>
> I didn't say that. He simply stepped back from owning/managing VCF. He'll
> still be at VCF West and we invited him to be an exhibit judge.
>

exhibit judge?

-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg 
Youtube: @billdeg 
Unauthorized Bio 

Re: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL

[JP Hindin]

On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, et...@757.org wrote:

They're something splendidly entertaining about a big honkin' graphical
workstation that you can roll up to and poke around the GUI on.


Only the Onyx series has graphics :-) Most of ours at NASA were headless with 
nothing but a serial console, and lots of CPUs. They crunched satellite data 
all day. 96 Processors on Origin 3800, Normally 32 IIRC on the Challenge XLs.



I have one of the full rack 3-phase ones in Seattle which, like the one I
gave away, has the Audio option.


I didn't know there was a 3 phase option. Was it an Onyx2 or Onyx?


The original Onyx ('Terminator') generally only had 3-phase if it had the 
VME backplane package added. Mine came from Boeing and had the VME cage 
(and a bunch of custom hardware of which I have no real understanding what 
it interfaces to), but it runs just fine on single-phase.


For convenience I, uh, replace all the honking great TwistLoks, et al, 
with NEMA50P oven plugs. Both the plugs and the receptacles are cheaper 
than dirt and easily sourced even in a town of 4,000 people in Iowa. So 
when I use the Onyx I have (which is in my office) I unplug the oven (in 
the kitchenette) and plug in the Onyx.


I'm reasonably certain that this is not what the engineers had intended, 
but due to their skill, it works a treat.


My Cray uses 5 of the Sun E1 style Pioneer Magnetics 5000 watt 48vdc 
PSUs, and even it was single phase (although I had it sitting across 3 phases 
just to get the power to it over a 30 amp cable.)


Yea, that's kind of my next trick. The J90 has some big-ass power cables I 
need to put NEMA50s on.


Which reminds me - what the heck is the trick to getting the two cabinets 
to interlock? I can get the front tabs hooked in between the two cabs, but 
for the LIFE of me I can't get the back to get it to sit the IOS cabinet's 
inner frame inside the processing cabinet's outer.


 - JP

Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???

[Evan Koblentz]

Sellam why has he retired??




I didn't say that. He simply stepped back from owning/managing VCF. He'll
still be at VCF West and we invited him to be an exhibit judge.


exhibit judge?


We haven't had judging at VCF East, but Sellam always did at West and 
we'll probably continue it this summer.

Re: Vintage Computer Festivals???

[Marvin Johnston]

From: Evan Koblentz 

> For VCF-West, I have a ridiculous amount of crap to dispose of

Looking forward to seeing you there. I encourage you to sell as much as
possible in consignment as long as it's on-topic. :)

**
Evan,

One thing I ALWAYS looked forward to at the VCF shows was being able to 
"get rid" of excess stuff by selling it. Another big benefit was the 
socializing that always took place. Selling through a consignment table 
removes most of the motivation for me to attend.


I have some friends here in SB who are planning on attending who want me 
to go with them. One of them suggested putting in a Craigslist ad to 
sell out of the van at the event or after hours :). Regardless, I have 
mixed feelings about attending.


My current thought is to see about attending VCF Midwest since they 
appear to be combining a flea market with exhibitors.


I'm not trying to change your mind, but I am trying to make clear my 
reasons for attending this type of show.


Marvin

Re: Manual for DEC 433au

[Laurens Vets]

On 2016-04-16 18:07, Glen Slick wrote:

On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 5:44 AM, Robert Jarratt
 wrote:
Anyone got the following document: DIGITAL Personal Workstation 
System

Reference and Maintenance Guide



Only thing I managed to find so far:
http://www.cilinder.be/docs/digitalpwsau/miatasg.zip

Download and unzip that, then start at:
miatasg\dpws_aau\Service\Aaudpwssg.htm

DIGITAL Personal Workstation System Reference and Maintenance Guide
a/au-Series

It's a collection of html pages, not a single pdf manual, and not
super friendly, but better than nothing.


Unfortunately, I never got/found the pdf of that manual :(

Btw, cilinder.be is my site, I only keep it in the air for the old 
documentation.

Microscience HH-1090 MFM hard disk manuals

[Philip Pemberton]

Hi there,

Does anyone happen to have any manuals kicking around for Microscience
MFM hard disk drives?

One for the HH-1090 would be very nice -- especially if it includes
service information (read: schematics).

I have, as the gentleman said, a cunning plan... however, a little more
information would save me a lot of effort.

Thanks,
-- 
Phil.
classic...@philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

Re: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Ian Finder wrote:
> They're something splendidly entertaining about a big honkin' graphical
> workstation that you can roll up to and poke around the GUI on.

No doubt.  The main thing to me is that they aren't "boring" business
machines.  They were made to do fun creative things on them.  SGI was also
about the only company who, at the time, made a Unix variant that cared
about graphics and sound.  I like to compare them with machines of the same
age (ie..  within a few months) from Sun.  Let's see, I have $2500 and it's
1993 or so.  Do I want a SPARCstation IPX with 8-bit graphics and mono sound
or an SGI Indy - no freakin' contest whatsoever in my mind.

I wrote Sun off after they turned their backs on SunOS.  Unfortunately, I
had to work with their gear and live through e-cache errors and the whole
sordid extended death ending with the ignominious demise of being bought by
one of your software vendors.  Ugh.  Of course, watching SGI under Rick
Belluzo (I hated that guy) wasn't much easier.  "Ohhh, I'm ex-Microsoft so
let's make Windows NT workstations." Ugh, Puh!, Bleh  grrraaat idea,
guys.  I wish the board could be retroactively fired for that.  I guess some
folks feel the same way about DEC under Robert Palmer.

> split phase, and I love showing people Quake, Maya and Photoshop on this
> giant behemoth from 1993.

Don't forget all the awesome texture demos you could do with those machines
that had enough TRAM.

> 12 i860s to run the graphics! How absurd!

Those processors showed up in the weirdest places.  I remember seeing them
on DEC SCSI controllers quite a bit, too.

> If we're rambling about SGIs now, my all time fav.  is the Indigo 2 R1000
> Max Impact.  You see one, and it looks normal enough, but when you pop
> that cover- there is so much logic packed into that box!  It's one of the
> densest machines I've ever encountered...

I had one of those for years and used it as my main workstation for 2-3
years.  You are right about the density.  I know the SGI Indy also had some
ridiculous number of PCB layers, too.  SGI engineers must have liked to go
vertical.  My fav (by a nose hair) is the O2.  The UMA and CRM graphics were
revolutionary at the time and still rock rather hard (1GB of 24-bit video
memory in 1996 anyone? Sun? HP? Didn't think so...). 

About the only thing in the 1990's that had the media grunt of an SGI was a
NeXT Cube with the fancy DSP board.  However, they didn't have enough decent
software for it.  It was just too $$$.  Macs had plenty of software, but the
graphics options often sucked (especially for video) until 3rd party vendors
started releasing cheap capture boards in the late 90's. The Quadra 840AV and
660AV were the only exceptions to what I considered a fairly mundane run of
machines. At least they weren't beige, though.  

-Swift

Re: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL

[ethan]

The original Onyx ('Terminator') generally only had 3-phase if it had the VME 
backplane package added. Mine came from Boeing and had the VME cage (and a 
bunch of custom hardware of which I have no real understanding what it 
interfaces to), but it runs just fine on single-phase.


Ah okay.

For convenience I, uh, replace all the honking great TwistLoks, et al, with 
NEMA50P oven plugs. Both the plugs and the receptacles are cheaper than dirt 
and easily sourced even in a town of 4,000 people in Iowa. So when I use the 
Onyx I have (which is in my office) I unplug the oven (in the kitchenette) 
and plug in the Onyx.


I like the twistlocks so much, would never let em go!

Yea, that's kind of my next trick. The J90 has some big-ass power cables I 
need to put NEMA50s on.


I put 30A twist locks on them, they were cut from the prior owner on mine 
(the plugs were hacked off but there is plenty of power cable.)


Which reminds me - what the heck is the trick to getting the two cabinets to 
interlock? I can get the front tabs hooked in between the two cabs, but for 
the LIFE of me I can't get the back to get it to sit the IOS cabinet's inner 
frame inside the processing cabinet's outer.


Man up! Mine is J932 so the CPU cabinet is about 2.5' - 3' deeper than the 
disk cabinet. There are these silver square box things with screw holes on 
opposing sides. Screw one side of them to one side, and swing the cabinets 
together. The floor needs to be fairly level. I usually find it's easier 
to push the disk rack around so I mate the disk rack to the CPU rack. I 
assume the CPU Rack on a J916 is quite a bit lighter (but not light.) 
There are screw holes for that hook together block on both sides. Maybe I 
just finger tighten the one on the CPU rack because it's hard to access - 
can't quite remember.




--
Ethan O'Toole

Imlac PDS-1 source code

[Seth Morabito]

While arranging some shelves, I came across an Imlac PDS-1 printset
that I rescued from somewhere (I don't remember where)

What I didn't realize was that in the back of the printset was some
assembler source code for David Bloodgood's "Imlac terminal emulator
program".

Photos here:

  http://imgur.com/a/QrV4T

I haven't found this online. Is it interesting to anyone? Would anyone
like a scan of it?

-Seth
-- 
Seth Morabito
s...@loomcom.com

Compugraphic MCS5 typesetter monitor needed

[Sellam Abraham]

I'm seeking the monitor for a Compugraphic MCS5 typesetter.  If anyone has 
one of these and is willing to let it go, please contact me directly.

Thanks!

--

Sellam Abraham VintageTech
--
International Man of Intrigue and Dangerhttp://www.vintagetech.com

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.  The truth is always simple.


   * * * NOTICE * * *

Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has
been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered 
reliable for any purpose either express or implied.  The contents of
this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational 
purposes only.  The right of the people to be secure in their papers
against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated.

Re: Imlac PDS-1 source code

[Josh Dersch]

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Seth Morabito  wrote:

> While arranging some shelves, I came across an Imlac PDS-1 printset
> that I rescued from somewhere (I don't remember where)
>
> What I didn't realize was that in the back of the printset was some
> assembler source code for David Bloodgood's "Imlac terminal emulator
> program".
>
> Photos here:
>
>   http://imgur.com/a/QrV4T
>
> I haven't found this online. Is it interesting to anyone? Would anyone
> like a scan of it?
>

I'd love a scan of it, I have an Imlac PDS-1D and wrote an emulator for it
awhile back (still need to polish that up:
http://rottedbits.blogspot.com/2013/07/simlac-v00-is-ready-for-human.html)

There's precious little software out there for this thing, so any new stuff
is welcome news!

- Josh



>
> -Seth
> --
> Seth Morabito
> s...@loomcom.com
>

strangest systems I've sent email from

[Swift Griggs]

Here's my top 3 weirdest devices I've ever sent email through, just for fun:

1. The AlphaSmart "Dana" which was a strange laptop-like device which ran
   PalmOS.  The email client was Eudora for PalmOS.

2. Sony eVilla BeIA appliance using some kind of (crappy) built-in mail
   application. 

3. Sharp Wizard handheld organizer over a serial TTY connected to a 386/SX
   with optional math co-processor installed so it could run ...  Xenix. 
   Logged in via simple built-in vt100 terminal app on the wizard at 2400
   BPS to the Unix box.  Used 'elm' to send the mail.


That Sharp Wizard was a helluva organizer for it's time.  The main feature
was that it takes AAA batteries and thus I was actually able to afford to
run the thing in college by getting rechargables.  It had a nice keyboard
and the display was readable in the sunlight, too.  No backlight, though.

-Swift

Re: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits

[Andrew Burton]

- Original Message - 
From: "Swift Griggs" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 3:53 PM
Subject: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits



> Seen the crazy prices for rare Neo Geo carts? $400 bucks for "Twinkle Star
> Sprites" ? Sure!
>
> -Swift


Heh! I knew someone around 15 years ago that paid £700 for a rare Japanese
Neo Geo cartridge. (No, I can't recall which game)

Another cartridge related question I'd like to throw open to the collective:
what about cartridges that have internal saves on them, such as Super Mario
World (SNES) or Micro Machines (Megadrive)? Does playing them regularly
really recharge the battery/non-volatile RAM so they continue to keep the
saves intact?
I usually play my cart games with saves on every year and that seems to keep
the saves intact (Donkey Kong Country 1 (SNES) is about 22 years old now and
I bought the game at it's UK launch).


Regards,
Andrew Burton
aliensrcoo...@yahoo.co.uk
www.aliensrcooluk.com

Re: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits

[Andrew Burton]

- Original Message - 
From: 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits


> > Remember the ones like Starfox for the SNES that had coprocessors
embedded
> > on them? Those were neat.
>
> Yes, I think there were only two for the SNES but I could be wrong. Check
> out Pitfall II on the Atari 2600, it has a sound processor in the cart.
>
> --
> Ethan O'Toole
>

Sorry, you are wrong. I own  three SNES games that use the SFX chip:
Starfox, Stunt Race FX and Yoshi's Island (SFX chip used for sprite rotation
and 3D objects, such as doors that fell towards the screen). There was to be
a Stunt Race FX 2 game, but I believe it was cancelled and never released.


The Megadrive had a few games too, with the SVP (Sega Virtua Processor)
chip: Virtua Fighter (I think?), Virtua Racing (definately) and Vectorman (I
think?).


 Regards,
Andrew Burton
aliensrcoo...@yahoo.co.uk
www.aliensrcooluk.com

Re: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Andrew Burton wrote:
> Sorry, you are wrong.  I own  three SNES games that use the SFX chip:
> Starfox, Stunt Race FX and Yoshi's Island (SFX chip used for sprite
> rotation and 3D objects, such as doors that fell towards the screen). 

Cool.  I thought there were only two as well.  Glad to be corrected, then. 
I don't remember Stunt Race FX, but I sure loved Starfox.

> The Megadrive had a few games too, with the SVP (Sega Virtua Processor)
> chip: Virtua Fighter (I think?), Virtua Racing (definately) and Vectorman (I
> think?).

Oh I never heard about that one.  I believe I have one of those titles for
the Sega 32X, too.  However, it probably had enough grunt to play it as-is.
I'm not sure if the 32X had any 3D hardware. 

-Swift

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Paul Koning]

> On Apr 19, 2016, at 4:15 PM, Mike Stein  wrote:
> 
> I finally found my micrometer; is there a cross-reference of pin # vs. depth 
> or just a list of standard depths for ACE keys somewhere?

Look here, http://www.hpcworld.com/mobile/km/pocketcutup/index.html, click "See 
the manual", it's at the bottom of the first page.

Looks like a neat little machine.  I don't have one (or any knowledge of these 
devices), but if I needed keys like that I'd consider it.

paul

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Mike Stein]

I finally found my micrometer; is there a cross-reference of pin # vs. depth or 
just a list of standard depths for ACE keys somewhere?

m

Re: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits

[Geoffrey Oltmans]

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Swift Griggs 
wrote:

>
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, et...@757.org wrote:
> > > Why does blowing on them help? (mosture? cleaning action?)
> > The moisure makes the connection work better or something, so that is
> > where it comes from.  Cleaning the contacts is best, and if it's a NES
> you
> > can replace the "finger module" or the slots on other systems.
>
> It seems like both sides can get worn out.  I've seen carts that'd have
> problems wherever you took them, even on nearly new NES units.  On the
> other
> hand I've seen well-worn NES systems that could barely play a brand-new
> cart.  I'm guessing that's where replacing the finger module would really
> give you a new lease on life for your NES.
>
>
I bought an NES back in the day brand-new ( I guess that would have been
about 1988) and as an anally-retentive pre-teen I never had problems with
any of the cartridges that I spent my hard-earned lawn mowing money on for
couple of years worth of solid play... that is until I lent them out to
friends that would invariably use the "blow in the cartridge" trick. It
does work, and I suspect that the moisture from your breath is the correct
culprit. Some carts had gold fingers, some tinned, and as I later went on
to work at a local video game swapping business as a teenager I noted that
quite a few of the tin plated edge connector carts were really really
corroded... from people blowing on the carts no doubt.

Nevertheless, later model systems without the ZIF connector never seemed to
have the same issues with carts that the NES had. :)

Re: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits

[Geoffrey Oltmans]

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:53 AM, Swift Griggs  wrote:

>
> I have some 90's consoles in my collection and I fondly remember a few
> systems that took carts that family and friends owned back in the 80's and
> 90's.  I thought the Colecovision Adam was awesome.  My cousin had one and
> I
> was so jealous.  The C64, 80's 8bit Atari PCs, the IBM PC Jr, and others
> all
> had cartridge ports, too.
>

I loved (and still do) the ADAM. It is an under-appreciated machine these
days IMO. Most of the initial launch issues you read about have long since
been corrected by the ravages of time, and what remains are on the whole
pretty solid units.

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Fred Cisin]

On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Mike Stein wrote:
I finally found my micrometer; is there a cross-reference of pin # vs. 
depth or just a list of standard depths for ACE keys somewhere?


Yes.  Called a "depth and space reference" (different for manufacturer, 
and sometimes blank)

5 years ago, we had a similar discussion:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote:

Not sure about tolerances (my brother is a locksmith but I'm not), but
according to...


http://www.locksafesystems.com/depth_and_space.htm#Chicago_Tubular_Space_and_Depth

The depths by number are:
1 - 0.0155"
2 - 0.0310"
3 - 0.0465"
4 - 0.0620"
5 - 0.0775"
6 - 0.093"
7 - 0.1085"
8 - 0.1240"

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[geneb]

On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Fred Cisin wrote:


On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Paul Koning wrote:
Look here, http://www.hpcworld.com/mobile/km/pocketcutup/index.html, click 
"See the manual", it's at the bottom of the first page.
Looks like a neat little machine.  I don't have one (or any knowledge of 
these devices), but if I needed keys like that I'd consider it.


It's a little costly for the amount of need that we have.
What do you think of the Klom imitation of it?


If someone wants to send me a 3D model of a key, I'll try 3D printing one 
to see how that works out.


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Fred Cisin]

On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Paul Koning wrote:

Look here, http://www.hpcworld.com/mobile/km/pocketcutup/index.html, click "See the 
manual", it's at the bottom of the first page.
Looks like a neat little machine.  I don't have one (or any knowledge of 
these devices), but if I needed keys like that I'd consider it.


It's a little costly for the amount of need that we have.
What do you think of the Klom imitation of it?

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[jwsmobile]

Also reference how you counted them, clockwise or counter clockwise.  
There may be a standard, in a recent exercise with Jay West (who knows 
more on this than I do) the locksmith we went to to have some of Jay's 
measured keys made was used to people not recalling when they had the 
codes that Fred references.


A friend with a locksmith made keys from Jay's measurements and they 
have been verified (the measurements) to make keys from scratch w/o a 
master.


thanks
Jim

On 4/19/2016 1:28 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Mike Stein wrote:
I finally found my micrometer; is there a cross-reference of pin # 
vs. depth or just a list of standard depths for ACE keys somewhere?


Yes.  Called a "depth and space reference" (different for 
manufacturer, and sometimes blank)

5 years ago, we had a similar discussion:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote:

Not sure about tolerances (my brother is a locksmith but I'm not), but
according to...

http://www.locksafesystems.com/depth_and_space.htm#Chicago_Tubular_Space_and_Depth 


The depths by number are:
1 - 0.0155"
2 - 0.0310"
3 - 0.0465"
4 - 0.0620"
5 - 0.0775"
6 - 0.093"
7 - 0.1085"
8 - 0.1240"

Re: Seeking immediate rescue of full-rack SGI ONYX near Northbrook, IL

[Jules Richardson]

On 04/19/2016 11:22 AM, Ian Finder wrote:

If we're rambling about SGIs now, my all time fav. is the Indigo 2 R1000
Max Impact. You see one, and it looks normal enough, but when you pop that
cover- there is so much logic packed into that box! It's one of the densest
machines I've ever encountered...


Ditto. I do like mine. Extra TRAM option, 384MB of RAM, 2x4GB disks. It 
gets a little toasty (but it's got the feet for standing it up on its side, 
and I think that helps a little with the heat dissipation - plus it looks a 
lot nicer! :-)


I'm not sure if there was a 'correct' display/keyboard/rodent setup on 
those machines? Mine came with a white keyboard and mouse but granite 
display, and I assume that they should really all be matched.


I still really need to find a purpose for it. Maya would be nice (and if I 
remember right there's evidence that it was originally accessible from that 
machine, but via a long-gone network drive), but I assume that period 
versions are difficult to get hold of.


cheers

Jules

Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)

[Grif]

Did not read the whole thread,  ill chime in with a vote for a tiny drill, an 
insulin syringe and ATF.  done it since the 70s on muffin fans, 10 previous 
years on bronze bushed blower motors.

 Original message 
From: Chuck Guzis  
Date: 04/18/2016  22:22  (GMT-08:00) 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Subject: Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) 

On 04/18/2016 09:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
> "What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale oil?"
> 
> Unless the Braycote products are directly interchangeable with Sperm
> Whale oil, how is your comparison even remotely relevant?
> 
> They are rendered from entirely different sources. Whale oil is a
> natural, animal-derived product that pretty much went out with the
> depletion of the resources (and finally, international treaties).
> P/TFE and MoS2 were formulated in industrial laboratories, and to
> this day, are turned out by industrial processes.
> 
> Am I incorrect?

No, just pointing out that there *are* other oils with very high price
tags--and in years past, could be purchased by the gallon.

ISTR that the antique clock folks still hoard whale oil.

--Chuck

​​​

Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)

[drlegendre .]

ATF.. ATF?!?!? Heresy, heresy!!

Not.

I suppose it depends what we're talking about, Type F or the various grades
of Dexron. But that's what I have in my pump oiler can. Per my
understanding, it's essentially a highly-refined 20W oil with a series of
additives that allow it to serve double-duty as the hydraulic working fluid
in torque converters and automatic transmission clutches.

There are also additives that are permitted in ATF which would be excluded
from crankcase oils, as the latter have a much greater tendency to enter
the environment.

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 8:14 PM, Grif  wrote:

> Did not read the whole thread,  ill chime in with a vote for a tiny drill,
> an insulin syringe and ATF.  done it since the 70s on muffin fans, 10
> previous years on bronze bushed blower motors.
>
>  Original message 
> From: Chuck Guzis 
> Date: 04/18/2016  22:22  (GMT-08:00)
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
>
> On 04/18/2016 09:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
> > "What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale oil?"
> >
> > Unless the Braycote products are directly interchangeable with Sperm
> > Whale oil, how is your comparison even remotely relevant?
> >
> > They are rendered from entirely different sources. Whale oil is a
> > natural, animal-derived product that pretty much went out with the
> > depletion of the resources (and finally, international treaties).
> > P/TFE and MoS2 were formulated in industrial laboratories, and to
> > this day, are turned out by industrial processes.
> >
> > Am I incorrect?
>
> No, just pointing out that there *are* other oils with very high price
> tags--and in years past, could be purchased by the gallon.
>
> ISTR that the antique clock folks still hoard whale oil.
>
> --Chuck
>
> ​​​
>

Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)

[Jon Elson]

On 04/19/2016 08:29 PM, drlegendre . wrote:

ATF.. ATF?!?!? Heresy, heresy!!

Not.

I suppose it depends what we're talking about, Type F or the various grades
of Dexron. But that's what I have in my pump oiler can. Per my
understanding, it's essentially a highly-refined 20W oil with a series of
additives that allow it to serve double-duty as the hydraulic working fluid
in torque converters and automatic transmission clutches.


Not so sure about that, but maybe it is all in the 
additives.  it seems like typical ATF is a LOT thinner than 
20W oil.  Also, it is pretty well known that if you put a 
complete fill of ATF into an engine crankcase, the rings 
will last about 10 miles before the compression goes to zero.


If you put engine oil in the transmission, then the clutches 
will slip.


Jon

Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)

[drlegendre .]

Hey, I'm always ready to learn..

One 'trick' I was taught, was to put a quart of ATF into an auto engine
that was down a quart of oil, and ready for a change. Claim was that it had
superior detergent / surfactant qualities, and would clean things up for
the change. You were supposed to run it for 15-20 minutes or whatever, then
drain the pan.

I never tried it. Also had heard similar 'tricks' that involved adding
diesel fuel to the crankcase prior to oil change. Never tried that one,
either.

I suspect a lot of these hacks originated in the days prior to detergent
oils, when it was understood that sludge would build up inside the motor
without intervention. Same thing with old (30s-50s) motor bikes, where one
was warned off of ever using a detergent oil - as opposed to 30W-50W oils -
as it might break loose all the sludge and plug up the oil system, starving
the bearing surfaces.

Heck if I know.

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 10:00 PM, Jon Elson  wrote:

> On 04/19/2016 08:29 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
>
>> ATF.. ATF?!?!? Heresy, heresy!!
>>
>> Not.
>>
>> I suppose it depends what we're talking about, Type F or the various
>> grades
>> of Dexron. But that's what I have in my pump oiler can. Per my
>> understanding, it's essentially a highly-refined 20W oil with a series of
>> additives that allow it to serve double-duty as the hydraulic working
>> fluid
>> in torque converters and automatic transmission clutches.
>>
>>
>> Not so sure about that, but maybe it is all in the additives.  it seems
> like typical ATF is a LOT thinner than 20W oil.  Also, it is pretty well
> known that if you put a complete fill of ATF into an engine crankcase, the
> rings will last about 10 miles before the compression goes to zero.
>
> If you put engine oil in the transmission, then the clutches will slip.
>
> Jon
>

RE: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits

[Sam O'nella]

I heard someone comment that there is some issue with game boy cartridges now 
and was recommending not buying those anymore. I'm not sure of what the details 
were.. maybe a battery issue? I think if they're bad they won't boot.  Anyone 
know the real details? 

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Dennis Boone]

 > It's a little costly for the amount of need that we have.  What do
 > you think of the Klom imitation of it?

I've got one of the Klom imitations coming.  Report to follow...

If it helps anyone, I can produce Chicago double-sided keys from code.
This sort of thing:

http://www.repeater-builder.com/keyspage/photos/key-2007.jpg

De

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Mike Stein]

- Original Message - 
From: "Paul Koning" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" 
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)



> On Apr 19, 2016, at 4:15 PM, Mike Stein  wrote:
> 
> I finally found my micrometer; is there a cross-reference of pin # vs. depth 
> or just a list of standard depths for ACE keys somewhere?

Look here, http://www.hpcworld.com/mobile/km/pocketcutup/index.html, click "See 
the manual", it's at the bottom of the first page.



Well, that doesn't quite match Fred's numbers below, but close enough:

http://www.locksafesystems.com/depth_and_space.htm#Chicago_Tubular_Space_and_Depth
> The depths by number are:
> 1 - 0.0155"
> 2 - 0.0310"
> 3 - 0.0465"
> 4 - 0.0620"
> 5 - 0.0775"
> 6 - 0.093"
> 7 - 0.1085"
> 8 - 0.1240"

So, assuming I did it right the code for the XX4306 key used in some Cromemco 
models is 5514457; anybody else want to confirm that?

m