Re: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout

[Pontus Pihlgren]

Quite a coincidence, Mattis showed me one of those just last 
week. Can't remember the system name though. A green 
terminal/micro computer combination.

Perhaps Mattis will fill in the details.

/P

On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 06:21:29PM -0500, Jay West wrote:
> I have two "flippy organizers" (that's around 20 floppies each) full of
> these oddball floppies.
> 
> Picture at
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638@N02/22020178558/in/dateposted/
> 
> They are 8", hard sectored, and the sectors are on the outer edge rather
> than the hub, and there is an odd cutout on one edge that goes inside the
> drive.
> 
> I know I don't have a machine that uses these, so they are available for
> trade.
> 
> J
> 
> 

Re: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout

[Mattis Lind]

söndag 18 oktober 2015 skrev dwight :

> I think it was Wang that used the outside holes.
> Dwight
>
>
And the Incoterm intelligent terminals used them as well.

 http://www.datormuseum.se/peripherals/terminals/incoterm-spd-20-20

/Mattis


> > Subject: Re: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird
> cutout
> > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org 
> > From: ccl...@sydex.com 
> > Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 16:30:16 -0700
> >
> > On 10/17/2015 04:21 PM, Jay West wrote:
> > > I have two "flippy organizers" (that's around 20 floppies each) full
> > > of these oddball floppies.
> > >
> > > Picture at
> > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638@N02/22020178558/in/dateposted/
> > >
> > >  They are 8", hard sectored, and the sectors are on the outer edge
> > > rather than the hub, and there is an odd cutout on one edge that goes
> > > inside the drive.
> > >
> > > I know I don't have a machine that uses these, so they are available
> > > for trade.
> >
> > Memorex 651 floppies:
> >
> >
> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/memorex/disc/651.60-05_651floppyOEM.pdf
> >
> > --Chuck
>

Re: PDP8 / ETOS

[Rick Murphy]

At 01:22 PM 10/17/2015, David Gesswein wrote:

On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 11:03:51PM -0400, Rick Murphy wrote:

System users guide pg 4-10. Fortran IV. Real time functions and floating
point processor functions are not currently supported. The internal
device handlers for high speed reader/punch and card reader are not 
supported.

Device independent I/O must be used to access these devices.

I don't know if that means the floating point instrutions won't work but
the software emulator fallback will or any attempt to use floating 
point will

fail.


The Fortran IV compiler emits FPP code, so what that has to mean is 
that you can't use a hardware floating point unit and must use the 
built-in emulator. That makes sense, as the FPP code has built-in 
15-bit addresses that won't get swizzled by the ETOS time-sharing option.


Guess I'll try to get a round tuit and bring up ETOS on my PiDP-8 to 
see if it can be made to work.

-Rick

Re: PDP8 / ETOS

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-10-18 12:37, Rick Murphy wrote:

At 01:22 PM 10/17/2015, David Gesswein wrote:

On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 11:03:51PM -0400, Rick Murphy wrote:

System users guide pg 4-10. Fortran IV. Real time functions and floating
point processor functions are not currently supported. The internal
device handlers for high speed reader/punch and card reader are not
supported.
Device independent I/O must be used to access these devices.

I don't know if that means the floating point instrutions won't work but
the software emulator fallback will or any attempt to use floating
point will
fail.


The Fortran IV compiler emits FPP code, so what that has to mean is that
you can't use a hardware floating point unit and must use the built-in
emulator. That makes sense, as the FPP code has built-in 15-bit
addresses that won't get swizzled by the ETOS time-sharing option.

Guess I'll try to get a round tuit and bring up ETOS on my PiDP-8 to see
if it can be made to work.


I decided to look into this a couple of days ago, since the basic 
workings of FRTS includes using interrupts, which is not possible if 
running under time sharing. That would also imply that it would not be 
possible to use F4 under RTS-8, which I had some memory of that it 
actually is possible.


To sum things up: The FPP-8 can usually not be used when in timesharing. 
First of all, you use IOTs to control the FPP, and all IOTs are trapped 
when in user mode. Second, as you note, the FPP-8 uses 15-bit addresses, 
which would make it impossible to use with virtual memory.


Also, the interrupt system is not available when in user mode.

However, FRTS actually have code to detect if it is running under RTS-8, 
and do not use the interrupt system in that case, but adopts. Also, 
since the FPP-8 IOTs are caught by RTS-8, and do not do anything, FRTS 
actually believes you are on a system without an FPP-8, even if you 
actually have one. So, FRTS will always use the FPP-8 emulator in this 
situation.


MULTOS-8 hook in to the same functionality, making FRTS believe it is 
running under RTS-8, which means that F4 programs will actually work 
under MULTOS-8, including ADVENT. I don't know if ETOS also implements 
the bits needed to make it look like OS/8 programs are actually under 
RTS-8. If it does, ADVENT should be possible to run under ETOS as well. 
Otherwise not.


Finally, as I noted, the FPP-8 is not that possible to use in user mode, 
both because of the IOT instructions being caught, and the 15-bit 
addressing. However, the FPP-8A have a mode where it only allows memory 
accesses within the same field, and will trap out if any memory 
reference goes to another field. With some work, and code, I think it 
could be possible to actually have access to the FPP-8 from user mode, 
if you have an FPP-8A, but I have never tried this, as I lack the hardware.


Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

Re: Atari Unix

[Stefan Skoglund (lokal användare)]

lör 2015-10-17 klockan 10:01 -0400 skrev et...@757.org:

> I was always under the impression that a few of them made it out
> there?
> 
> I have a TT030 and actually was just looking at it last night. It has
> a 
> VME slot (as they call it) that has a dual serial port board
> installed. I 
> think it has a modem port. I know it's not compatible with normal ST 
> softwar,e has VGA, does not use a ps2 keyboard but uses an ST
> keyboard, 
> and has real SCSI versus ACSI!
> 
> Strange computers. Doesn't look quite as cool as the Mega 2/4 IMHO
> but 
> still interesting!
> 

The specs makes me think that it is a bit more powerfull than a Sun
3/80 (and 280 too.)
The ECL monitor reminds me about Sun Sun2/3/4:era bwtwo.

About the same resolution.

Remark: how much did a 1280x1024 capable ecl-monitor cost around 1990 ?

Re: Atari Unix

[Stefan Skoglund (lokal]

sön 2015-10-18 klockan 17:16 +0200 skrev Stefan Skoglund (lokal
användare):
> The specs makes me think that it is a bit more powerfull than a Sun
> 3/80 (and 280 too.)
> The ECL monitor reminds me about Sun Sun2/3/4:era bwtwo.
> 
> About the same resolution.
> 
> Remark: how much did a 1280x1024 capable ecl-monitor cost around 1990
> ?

I checked out the end customer/oem price list.

Sun wanted 1988 4000 $ for a high resolution monitor with cable and
board (bwtwo.)

I would be surprised if a monitor only at that time was around 2000 $.

JAMMA board video hookup

[Jules Richardson]

OK, so it's sort-of computery. I snagged a JAMMA arcade board from a 
recycling pile a couple of days ago (this is an m68k-based early 90's 
board). Supposedly it's faulty, but I don't know the nature of the fault - 
maybe it's just RAM or a reset problem or something, so I figured I'd put a 
little bit of time into it.


Anyway, I'm having a hard time finding details about the video output - I 
know it's negative composite sync (I got the manual, which says that much), 
and I *think* it's TTL levels (right?), but I'm not sure about frequencies. 
Then there's the RGB outputs - analog, but I'm not seeing anything that 
tells me peak voltages.


I suppose the question is, what's the easiest display to try and hook this 
up to? I've monitors with an assortment of inputs (VGA, EGA, CGA, MDA, 
mono-composite), and I think there's a CRT TV kicking around that has a 
composite input too (and maybe S-video, not sure).  It doesn't bother me if 
the quality's not great; I'm just interested in whatever's quickest to 
interface to at this stage, just to see if I can get something working.


cheers

Jules

Re: JAMMA board video hookup

[Zane Healy]

Google "Super-Gun", as that's how you typically hook one up outside of an 
arcade cabinet.  I think most arcade cabinets use CGA monitors.

BTW, it looks like Component video has made its way to Super-Guns (I was at the 
"Portland Retro Game Expo" yesterday).

If nothing else, you'll need a JAMMA harness so you can wire something up 
yourself.

What board?  There are sites out on the net with repair logs for some boards.

Zane




On Oct 18, 2015, at 8:32 AM, Jules Richardson  
wrote:

> 
> OK, so it's sort-of computery. I snagged a JAMMA arcade board from a 
> recycling pile a couple of days ago (this is an m68k-based early 90's board). 
> Supposedly it's faulty, but I don't know the nature of the fault - maybe it's 
> just RAM or a reset problem or something, so I figured I'd put a little bit 
> of time into it.
> 
> Anyway, I'm having a hard time finding details about the video output - I 
> know it's negative composite sync (I got the manual, which says that much), 
> and I *think* it's TTL levels (right?), but I'm not sure about frequencies. 
> Then there's the RGB outputs - analog, but I'm not seeing anything that tells 
> me peak voltages.
> 
> I suppose the question is, what's the easiest display to try and hook this up 
> to? I've monitors with an assortment of inputs (VGA, EGA, CGA, MDA, 
> mono-composite), and I think there's a CRT TV kicking around that has a 
> composite input too (and maybe S-video, not sure).  It doesn't bother me if 
> the quality's not great; I'm just interested in whatever's quickest to 
> interface to at this stage, just to see if I can get something working.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Jules

Re: JAMMA board video hookup

[Jules Richardson]

On 10/18/2015 10:41 AM, Zane Healy wrote:

Google "Super-Gun", as that's how you typically hook one up outside of
an arcade cabinet.


Ah, totally overkill at this stage, though.


 I think most arcade cabinets use CGA monitors.


My guess is that it's most likely all TV-rate signaling, and so there might 
be a way of just throwing a handful of resistors into a pot (etc.) and 
getting a (poor-quality, perhaps!) signal out the other end that I can just 
feed into one of the displays that I have here.


The JAMMA pinouts are readily available, so wiring for the controls isn't a 
problem - I'm just not finding anything that provides details about the 
video signal.



If nothing else, you'll need a JAMMA harness so you can wire something
up yourself.


I've actually got some suitable edge connectors sitting in the junk pile (I 
don't have a 56-pin one, but a couple of butchered shorter ones 
side-by-side will do for testing).  The manual that I obtained with the 
board lists the DIP switch settings for free play mode, so I don't think I 
need to worry about simulating coin boxes either (although I think those 
are just TTL inputs, so a couple of debounced switches would do).



What board?  There are sites out on the net with repair logs for some
boards.


It came from an Aero Fighters cab - board says "IT-19-02" in the corner. 
I've no idea if it was a one-off for this game or if other games used the 
same board with different firmware.


cheers

Jules

Re: JAMMA board video hookup

[Zane Healy]

On Oct 18, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Jules Richardson  
wrote:

> It came from an Aero Fighters cab - board says "IT-19-02" in the corner. I've 
> no idea if it was a one-off for this game or if other games used the same 
> board with different firmware.

If you can get it working, it should be a fun game!  I love Aero Fighters 2 & 3 
(aka Sonic Wings) on the Neo Geo.

Looks like this page might have some details to help.

Zane

Re: Data General NOVA 4/C help

[Henk Gooijen]

Thanks Rod,

I feel stupid ... It would have been a simple check to see whether
the floppy drive actually rotates the floppy [dumb, dumb, dumb].
I did transport the disk drive very carefully ... The trip was not
bumpy, and most of it was on a (smooth) highway.
Keeping fingers crossed.

Checking the drive belts is a good idea!  May have fallen off,
I have seen that before on DEC drives (RX01, RX02). Whether the
hard disk has a self test, I don't know (yet).
I have the terminal connected that was used with the system,
a Dasher D200. I am pretty sure that the connection is correct,
but now I start having doubts.

Floppy diskette still OK is the big question. Interesting system,
I need to study the documentation!

greetz,
- Henk


-Oorspronkelijk bericht- 
From: Rod Smallwood 
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 11:50 PM 
To: gene...@classiccmp.org ; discuss...@classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Data General NOVA 4/C help 

Whilst I have no experience of DG systems I am familar with drives of 
that era.
The red label is important. If you did not put the shipping locks in we 
must assume it travelled without.

Thats not good. If the journey was not too bumpy then you may be ok.

I have seen floppy drives with shipping locks but its not usual. So the 
floppy drive might be a good place to start.  The drive may be fine but 
disks do not last forever. I would want to be sure the actual disk was ok.



Does it have any kind of power on self test?

As it appears that system does not boot nor do you get any out put on a 
terminal.
(You do have a terminal  attached) perhaps a good  mechanical check of 
the floppy drive.

Things like belts and rubber components are worth a look.

Rod



On 17/10/2015 21:16, Henk Gooijen wrote:

I picked up the NOVA 4 last Thursday. I had help carrying all the stuff
(disassembled) downstairs from the attic. At home I had to unload the van
single-handed. Went well, although I felt my back that evening ...

Today, I cleaned the rack, as all boxes were still on the floor. There
was little dust, the machine was well taken care of.
After the cleaning I mounted the hard disk drive on the slides. The hard
drive is a model 6101-S2 (12.5 MB fixed disk). On the top plate of the
hard disk is an 8" Qume floppy disk drive mounted. The hard disk and
the floppy disk form one unit, never seen this construction before!
The colored twisted-pair flatcable from the floppy drive goes to the
hard disk and another colored twisted-pair flat cable goes to the
NOVA 4/C computer, connecting on a paddle board using an edge connector.

See my website: www.pdp-11.nl/dg/nova4/nova4.html
After everything was connected I applied mains. The fans start to run,
so far so good. Then I switch on the NOVA and then the hard disk unit.
The POWER LED on the NOVA and on the hard disk is lit. I can hear the
hard disk "hum", and when the humming sound stops after a few seconds
the READY LED is lit.
However, when I press RESET on the NOVA and then PR.LOAD, the READY LED
on the disk flashes momentarily (brief), but nothing further happens.

On the disk drive are (behind the panel) two small switches. One has
the text "NORM" and "PROT", the other has several texts (forgotten),
but with that switch you can set the hard disk as device 0 and the
floppy drive device 1, or the hard disk as device 1 and the floppy
disk as device 0. Basically you can set the boot device, as the machine
starts from device 0. I have this from the accompanying documentation.

When I put that switch in the other position and press RESET and then
PR.LOAD on the NOVA, the floppy disk LED is lit for a few seconds,
but I do not hear a head load ("clunk"), nor head stepping sounds.
Of course, the floppy drive is loaded with a floppy disk. The label
on the floppy says "opstart" (Dutch for start up). As the floppy disk
access LED turn on, I guess that I can say that the NOVA itself is OK.

As far as I know, I have the BERG connector put back on the pins
where it was before I did the disassembly. That cable connects to the
terminal. The question might be whether it was on the correct pins
for starters. I do not get any character(s) on the Dasher D200 terminal
that came with the system. For that reason, I assume that the terminal
settings match the settings for the NOVA.

One more remark. On the hard disk is a red label glued. The text on
it says "remove 2 shipping brackets before operating unit unlock
pivot arm (see over)". On the rear side of the label is a drawing
that shows the "front left corner". At the side is a screw (???) to
lock/unlock the head(s). However, I just don't understand the drawing
and cannot localize that screw.
I mailed the previous owner whether he remembers something ...

Anybody has info on the 6101-S2 disk drive? A drawing of those
shipping rackets, and more info about head locks?

Thanks,
- Henk

RE: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU

[Robert Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter
> Coghlan
> Sent: 16 October 2015 23:45
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: RE: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU
> 
> >
> > Thanks very much for this. Interesting that there is a fuse inside.
> > You would think the casing would be designed to allow the fuse to be
> > replaced somehow.
> >
> 
> That's not the original fuse either.  I managed to blow that one when I
was
> trying to find the original problem with the PSU.  I was having a really
bad day
> and I somehow managed to clip the scope ground lead onto the negative end
of
> the rectified mains smoother instead of the negative of one of the output
> smoothers.
> The original fuse had wire ended caps pressed on to it and I was unable to
get
> them off so I ended up soldering loops of wire around the replacement fuse
> instead.
> 
> It looks like the case was originally designed to be held together with a
single
> screw.  Perhaps it was later decided that this was insufficient to keep it
from
> coming apart and exposing dangerous voltages if dropped from a height and
it
> was decided to glue it together instead?
> 
> I can sort of see why it might not be a priority to make the fuse
replacable.
> Firstly, someone might try to replace it with a 13A plug fuse.  Secondly,
if the
> fuse did blow, there would likely be other components damaged.  Sadly, it
> might be cheaper to get a replacement unit from stock than to pay someone
> capable of repairing it properly and ensuring it's safety afterwards.
> 
> Regards,
> Peter Coghlan.

I had another go today, but I fail to see how you managed to pry this thing
apart without causing much more damage than appears in your photo. What kind
of tool did you use?

Regards

Rob

Re: Data General NOVA 4/C help

[Jay Jaeger]

On 10/17/2015 3:16 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
> I picked up the NOVA 4 last Thursday. I had help carrying all the stuff
> (disassembled) downstairs from the attic. At home I had to unload the van
> single-handed. Went well, although I felt my back that evening ...
> 
> Today, I cleaned the rack, as all boxes were still on the floor. There
> was little dust, the machine was well taken care of.
> After the cleaning I mounted the hard disk drive on the slides. The hard
> drive is a model 6101-S2 (12.5 MB fixed disk). On the top plate of the
> hard disk is an 8" Qume floppy disk drive mounted. The hard disk and
> the floppy disk form one unit, never seen this construction before!
> The colored twisted-pair flatcable from the floppy drive goes to the
> hard disk and another colored twisted-pair flat cable goes to the
> NOVA 4/C computer, connecting on a paddle board using an edge connector.

My Nova 4 and Eclipse S/140 have a 6100 DG winchester hard disk with the
floppy on a hinge sitting over the hard disk, as a single unit.  I think
it is the same family as yours (DG calls them "ECHO" in some of the
docs). Mine (I have one on my Nova 4 and one on my S/140) are labelled
"6100" for the model.  My controller is labelled "DISC LOGIC NOVA"
10700089102 (you might have to slide the board out to see that
107 number, but often a flashlight will allow you to see it
while it is still fully in the machine).

> 
> See my website: www.pdp-11.nl/dg/nova4/nova4.html
> After everything was connected I applied mains. The fans start to run,
> so far so good. Then I switch on the NOVA and then the hard disk unit.
> The POWER LED on the NOVA and on the hard disk is lit. I can hear the
> hard disk "hum", and when the humming sound stops after a few seconds
> the READY LED is lit.

If that is the case, then your hard disk is likely pretty functional (it
may not be fully functional, but the READY light is a very very good
sign).  If the spindle or head lock were present, then I would not
expect that the READY light would come on.

The humming is the spindle startup.  If you hear the disk spinning, then
the spindle is not locked. ;)  If the drive is 100% quiet after the hum
part, then there is probably something not right.  ;)

> However, when I press RESET on the NOVA and then PR.LOAD, the READY LED
> on the disk flashes momentarily (brief), but nothing further happens.
> 

See below regarding the Virtual Console.

> On the disk drive are (behind the panel) two small switches. One has
> the text "NORM" and "PROT", the other has several texts (forgotten),
> but with that switch you can set the hard disk as device 0 and the
> floppy drive device 1, or the hard disk as device 1 and the floppy
> disk as device 0. Basically you can set the boot device, as the machine
> starts from device 0. I have this from the accompanying documentation.
> 

My 6100 is the same.

> When I put that switch in the other position and press RESET and then
> PR.LOAD on the NOVA, the floppy disk LED is lit for a few seconds,
> but I do not hear a head load ("clunk"), nor head stepping sounds.
> Of course, the floppy drive is loaded with a floppy disk. The label
> on the floppy says "opstart" (Dutch for start up). As the floppy disk
> access LED turn on, I guess that I can say that the NOVA itself is OK.
> 
> As far as I know, I have the BERG connector put back on the pins
> where it was before I did the disassembly. That cable connects to the
> terminal. The question might be whether it was on the correct pins
> for starters. I do not get any character(s) on the Dasher D200 terminal
> that came with the system. For that reason, I assume that the terminal
> settings match the settings for the NOVA.

My NOVA/4 has a console ROM (DG calls it a Virtual Console - VC) that
works over the serial port.  That you are seeing no characters is NOT a
good sign.

The Virtual Console on the Nova/4 is very similar to the S/140, so you
can look at bitsavers .../pdf/dg/eclipse in the S140 Programmer's
Reference for guidance.

So, you might start by seeing if the VC is operating.  If it isn't, then
you should presumably fix that first and just leave the disk drive
turned off.

Naturally, the VC "Cells" are different  for the S/140.  For the NOVA 4:

0-3  AC0 - AC3
4Return address
5Stack pointer
6Frame pointer
7Bit 15 (LSB) Interrupt enable
10   MAP Status word
11   Switch Register
12   Bit 15 (LSB) is the carry bit


My boot sequence from the virtual console on the S/140 goes like this
(the "!" is the Virtual console prompt - see below)

!11A xx 1000dd [ is newline - this loads the switch reg.]
!1000ddL

where "dd" is the device: 33 for the hard disk or floppy (depending upon
the switch setting) and 22 is mag tape. The leading "1" indicates a
"channel" (DMA) device.  PR Load presumably does essentially the same thing.

> 
> One more remark. On the hard disk is a red label glued. The text on
> it says "remove 2 shipping brackets before operating unit unlo

Re: Data General NOVA 4/C help

[Jay Jaeger]

On 10/18/2015 11:48 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
> Thanks Rod,
> 
> I feel stupid ... It would have been a simple check to see whether
> the floppy drive actually rotates the floppy [dumb, dumb, dumb].
> I did transport the disk drive very carefully ... The trip was not
> bumpy, and most of it was on a (smooth) highway.
> Keeping fingers crossed.
> 
> Checking the drive belts is a good idea!  May have fallen off,
> I have seen that before on DEC drives (RX01, RX02). Whether the
> hard disk has a self test, I don't know (yet).
> I have the terminal connected that was used with the system,
> a Dasher D200. I am pretty sure that the connection is correct,
> but now I start having doubts.
> 
> Floppy diskette still OK is the big question. Interesting system,
> I need to study the documentation!
> 
> greetz,
> - Henk
> 
> 

On one of my two hard drives, there is a tendency for the belt to spin
off on startup, too.

JRJ

RE: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU

[Tothwolf]

On Sun, 18 Oct 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote:

I had another go today, but I fail to see how you managed to pry this 
thing apart without causing much more damage than appears in your photo. 
What kind of tool did you use?


My usual technique to deal with these sort of brick and wall-wart PSUs 
that are glued together is to carefully squeeze their plastic sides in a 
small padded vise to break the glue joint. With practice, you can split 
one of these open with little to no damage. Don't be tempted to use a 
mallet as you could with really old linear transformer wall-warts though. 
The g-forces generated by a mallet will break components off of a pc board 
in a switchmode PSU.

RE: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU

[tony duell]

> > I had another go today, but I fail to see how you managed to pry this
> > thing apart without causing much more damage than appears in your photo.
> > What kind of tool did you use?
> 
> My usual technique to deal with these sort of brick and wall-wart PSUs
> that are glued together is to carefully squeeze their plastic sides in a
> small padded vise to break the glue joint. With practice, you can split

If possible you want to squeeze the 'inner member' of the joint. So what I
do is put the jaws of the vice just to one side of the seam and squeeze, and
if that doesn't help then turn the whole thing over and sqeeze on the other
side of the seam.

> one of these open with little to no damage. Don't be tempted to use a
> mallet as you could with really old linear transformer wall-warts though.
> The g-forces generated by a mallet will break components off of a pc board
> in a switchmode PSU.

Or the other old trick for linear PSU bricks (again, don't try it with SMPSUs)
-- hold the cables about 2' from the unit and swing it round so that it hits
the bench or floor. That often cracks them open with suprisingly little damage.

Oh for the days when we had screws holding such things together!

-tony

Re: Data General NOVA 4/C help

[R SMALLWOOD]

Ok good
   I don't think the heads will load until the floppy disk is 
turning. 
If its a belt driven drive (most 8" drives were) replace the belt anyway.
I have seen plenty of drives where the belt has become sticky and glued itself
to one of the drive wheels.  It tries to turn and breaks. 
So clean off any residue on the drive wheels.

I am short on DG knowledge but the norm was disk present plus door closed would 
cause motor start 
either as a drive function or via a CPU interrupt.  


Original message
>From : henk.gooi...@hotmail.com
Date : 18/10/2015 - 16:48 (UTC)
To : cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject : Re: Data General NOVA 4/C help

Thanks Rod,

I feel stupid ... It would have been a simple check to see whether
the floppy drive actually rotates the floppy [dumb, dumb, dumb].
I did transport the disk drive very carefully ... The trip was not
bumpy, and most of it was on a (smooth) highway.
Keeping fingers crossed.

Checking the drive belts is a good idea!  May have fallen off,
I have seen that before on DEC drives (RX01, RX02). Whether the
hard disk has a self test, I don't know (yet).
I have the terminal connected that was used with the system,
a Dasher D200. I am pretty sure that the connection is correct,
but now I start having doubts.

Floppy diskette still OK is the big question. Interesting system,
I need to study the documentation!

greetz,
- Henk


-Oorspronkelijk bericht- 
From: Rod Smallwood 
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 11:50 PM 
To: gene...@classiccmp.org ; discuss...@classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Data General NOVA 4/C help 

Whilst I have no experience of DG systems I am familar with drives of 
that era.
The red label is important. If you did not put the shipping locks in we 
must assume it travelled without.
Thats not good. If the journey was not too bumpy then you may be ok.

I have seen floppy drives with shipping locks but its not usual. So the 
floppy drive might be a good place to start.  The drive may be fine but 
disks do not last forever. I would want to be sure the actual disk was ok.


Does it have any kind of power on self test?

As it appears that system does not boot nor do you get any out put on a 
terminal.
(You do have a terminal  attached) perhaps a good  mechanical check of 
the floppy drive.
Things like belts and rubber components are worth a look.

Rod



On 17/10/2015 21:16, Henk Gooijen wrote:
> I picked up the NOVA 4 last Thursday. I had help carrying all the stuff
> (disassembled) downstairs from the attic. At home I had to unload the van
> single-handed. Went well, although I felt my back that evening ...
>
> Today, I cleaned the rack, as all boxes were still on the floor. There
> was little dust, the machine was well taken care of.
> After the cleaning I mounted the hard disk drive on the slides. The hard
> drive is a model 6101-S2 (12.5 MB fixed disk). On the top plate of the
> hard disk is an 8" Qume floppy disk drive mounted. The hard disk and
> the floppy disk form one unit, never seen this construction before!
> The colored twisted-pair flatcable from the floppy drive goes to the
> hard disk and another colored twisted-pair flat cable goes to the
> NOVA 4/C computer, connecting on a paddle board using an edge connector.
>
> See my website: www.pdp-11.nl/dg/nova4/nova4.html
> After everything was connected I applied mains. The fans start to run,
> so far so good. Then I switch on the NOVA and then the hard disk unit.
> The POWER LED on the NOVA and on the hard disk is lit. I can hear the
> hard disk "hum", and when the humming sound stops after a few seconds
> the READY LED is lit.
> However, when I press RESET on the NOVA and then PR.LOAD, the READY LED
> on the disk flashes momentarily (brief), but nothing further happens.
>
> On the disk drive are (behind the panel) two small switches. One has
> the text "NORM" and "PROT", the other has several texts (forgotten),
> but with that switch you can set the hard disk as device 0 and the
> floppy drive device 1, or the hard disk as device 1 and the floppy
> disk as device 0. Basically you can set the boot device, as the machine
> starts from device 0. I have this from the accompanying documentation.
>
> When I put that switch in the other position and press RESET and then
> PR.LOAD on the NOVA, the floppy disk LED is lit for a few seconds,
> but I do not hear a head load ("clunk"), nor head stepping sounds.
> Of course, the floppy drive is loaded with a floppy disk. The label
> on the floppy says "opstart" (Dutch for start up). As the floppy disk
> access LED turn on, I guess that I can say that the NOVA itself is OK.
>
> As far as I know, I have the BERG connector put back on the pins
> where it was before I did the disassembly. That cable connects to the
> terminal. The question might be whether it was on the correct pins
> for starters. I do not get any character(s) on the Dasher D200 terminal
> that came with the system. For that reason, I assume that the terminal

Re: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout

[Eric Smith]

Did the disks for the original IBM 23FD "Minnow" floppy disk also have
the sector/index hole near the edge, like the Memorex 650/651?  The
Minnow was used as a read-only device for loading microcode, and the
disks were only factory written. I haven't seen an actual Minnow disk,
but since Memorex was one of the companies making plug-compatible
equipment, I wouldn't be surprised if they designed the 650/651 medium
to be mechanically interchangeable with the 23FD disks.

The Memorex 650/651 supported read/write use, and had more than twice
the formatted capacity of the 23FD, so the on-disk format clearly
didn't match the 23FD.

Nice blog post on fixing a 1401 memory bug...

[Lyle Bickley]

I'm forwarding a blog post written by a member of the CHM 1401 Restoration Team.
Excellent description (with pictures) of how 1401 memory is addressed, etc.:

http://www.righto.com/2015/10/repairing-50-year-old-mainframe-inside.html

Cheers,
Lyle
-- 
73  AF6WS
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

ADVENT on TSX-Plus system?

[Charles]

I have a PDP-11/23+ with 4 MB RAM and two RL02 drives. I can boot RT-11XM, 
then run VBGEXE and start ADVENT with no problem.


But TSX-Plus 6.50, at least the version I have, has to run over RT-11SJ, and 
VBGEXE reports "Wrong version". And ADVENT won't run by itself (without 
VBGEXE), whether SJ or XM.


So is there any way to run ADVENT while running TSX-Plus?

thanks
Charles

Re: ADVENT on TSX-Plus system?

[ben]

On 10/18/2015 12:02 PM, Charles wrote:

I have a PDP-11/23+ with 4 MB RAM and two RL02 drives. I can boot
RT-11XM, then run VBGEXE and start ADVENT with no problem.

But TSX-Plus 6.50, at least the version I have, has to run over RT-11SJ,
and VBGEXE reports "Wrong version". And ADVENT won't run by itself
(without VBGEXE), whether SJ or XM.

So is there any way to run ADVENT while running TSX-Plus?

thanks
Charles


Create a PDP8 simulator ... :-)
Runs and ducks.

RE: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU

[Robert Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony
duell
> Sent: 18 October 2015 18:36
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: RE: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU
> 
> 
> 
> > > I had another go today, but I fail to see how you managed to pry
> > > this thing apart without causing much more damage than appears in your
> photo.
> > > What kind of tool did you use?
> >
> > My usual technique to deal with these sort of brick and wall-wart PSUs
> > that are glued together is to carefully squeeze their plastic sides in
> > a small padded vise to break the glue joint. With practice, you can
> > split
> 
> If possible you want to squeeze the 'inner member' of the joint. So what I
do is
> put the jaws of the vice just to one side of the seam and squeeze, and if
that
> doesn't help then turn the whole thing over and sqeeze on the other side
of the
> seam.
> 
> > one of these open with little to no damage. Don't be tempted to use a
> > mallet as you could with really old linear transformer wall-warts
though.
> > The g-forces generated by a mallet will break components off of a pc
> > board in a switchmode PSU.
> 
> Or the other old trick for linear PSU bricks (again, don't try it with
SMPSUs)
> -- hold the cables about 2' from the unit and swing it round so that it
hits the
> bench or floor. That often cracks them open with suprisingly little
damage.
> 
> Oh for the days when we had screws holding such things together!
> 
> -tony
> =

Great idea to use a vice, never thought of that. Will give it a go.

Thanks

Rob

Re: Data General NOVA 4/C help

[Henk Gooijen]

Thanks Jay and Rod,

you gave me a lot of pointers to check. I agree that getting
a console working is on top of the todo list. However, I better
put on old clothes for next Saturday. I want to have at least
a look at the head lock and shipping bracket, but do not want
to remove the disk out of the rack again. Although I can lift
it on my own, I did feel my back that evening :-/
So, it will be sliding out the drive and then crawl under it,
laying on the floor removing the bottom cover ...

Haven't thought about looking in the eclipse folder on bitsavers!
Gonna look for that Virtual Console. The papers that came with
the system tell about a single letter to start the application,
not xL, so there might be a console ROM.
I can probe the header pins on the "multiplexer" paddle board
to which the terminal connects with a "BERG" header. There are
just 3 wires, so that must be RxD, TxD and GND.

tnx!
- Henk

Monochrome ECL monitors, circa 1990 - was Re: Atari Unix

[Toby Thain]

On 2015-10-18 11:16 AM, Stefan Skoglund (lokal användare) wrote:

lör 2015-10-17 klockan 10:01 -0400 skrev et...@757.org:


I was always under the impression that a few of them made it out
there?

I have a TT030 and actually was just looking at it last night. It has
a
VME slot (as they call it) that has a dual serial port board
installed. I
think it has a modem port. I know it's not compatible with normal ST
softwar,e has VGA, does not use a ps2 keyboard but uses an ST
keyboard,
and has real SCSI versus ACSI!

Strange computers. Doesn't look quite as cool as the Mega 2/4 IMHO
but
still interesting!



The specs makes me think that it is a bit more powerfull than a Sun
3/80 (and 280 too.)
The ECL monitor reminds me about Sun Sun2/3/4:era bwtwo.

About the same resolution.

Remark: how much did a 1280x1024 capable ecl-monitor cost around 1990 ?




I was using Macintosh high res mono screens around that time. I found a 
price from Jan 2, 1989:


Sigma Laserview for SE, 1664x1200, presumably including the interface 
card: $2295


And a lot more prices from Feb 16, 1987:

Megascreen Plus, 1024x900 $2495

Page 46: http://ur1.ca/o2qyo


--Toby

RE: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU

[Peter Coghlan]

>
> I had another go today, but I fail to see how you managed to pry this thing
> apart without causing much more damage than appears in your photo. What kind
> of tool did you use?
>

Stuff sometimes looks better in a photo than it does in real life.  There are
all sorts of nicks and gouges and the two halves don't mate up anything like
as well as they originally did.

It's a long time since I originally opened it so I don't remember exactly what
I used.  Probably jewellers screwdrivers initially, slightly larger flat-bladed
screwdrivers, pen knife, an old scissors, blunt old cutlery knives, that sort of
thing.  Unfortunately, there is a small step at the seam so it is not really
possible to cut along it with a sharp blade without cutting through part of the
case too.  Also, the glue seemed to be nearly as hard as the case material and
that didn't help either.

I do remember that it was very difficult to open and took a long time over more
than one sitting.  I think I managed to get started in a few locations but even
after freeing both ends completely, it still would not budge until I managed to
break it all the way along one of the long sides as well.  I recall making very
slow but visible progress along one side or end for a while but eventually I
would come to a point where I could not seem to get any further and I would
have to start again at a different location.  Before I got to that point, I
tried the slamming it onto concrete trick as well but that made no impression
on it except it probably contributed to the broken track that manifested later.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

Re: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/18/2015 10:50 AM, Eric Smith wrote:

Did the disks for the original IBM 23FD "Minnow" floppy disk also
have the sector/index hole near the edge, like the Memorex 650/651?
The Minnow was used as a read-only device for loading microcode, and
the disks were only factory written. I haven't seen an actual Minnow
disk, but since Memorex was one of the companies making
plug-compatible equipment, I wouldn't be surprised if they designed
the 650/651 medium to be mechanically interchangeable with the 23FD
disks.

The Memorex 650/651 supported read/write use, and had more than
twice the formatted capacity of the 23FD, so the on-disk format
clearly didn't match the 23FD.


To the best of my recollection, the Minnow used disks with 8 sector 
holes.  I don't recall the modulation scheme, but FM would be reasonable.


--Chuck

"Farm" slang terms

[Eric Christopherson]

Hi, all. I'm looking for information on slang terms with the word "farm"
in them, relating to computaters; especially the origins of such terms.
I've known "cube farm" (a bunch of cubicles where office workers work)
and "render farm" (a cluster of computers used for graphics rendering in
parallel) for a long time, but just recently I found a reference to
"link farm" as meaning "an incremental backup consisting mostly of links
(most likely hard links) to the relevant files in the preceding
iteration of the backup"; but this page
 says
"a website with little or no content, consisting of mostly (or entirely)
links to other websites."

So, does anyone know what the first such "farm" slang term was, and when
and where it originated? And how about other terms with "farm" in them?
(I came across a new one the other day, but of course I've forgotten it
now.)

-- 
Eric Christopherson

RE: "Farm" slang terms

[tony duell]

> 
> So, does anyone know what the first such "farm" slang term was, and when
> and where it originated? And how about other terms with "farm" in them?
> (I came across a new one the other day, but of course I've forgotten it
> now.)

Not likely to be used much now (well, not outside members of this list) but
an array of transputers (often) interconnected by C004 link switches was often
called a 'Transputer farm'

-tony

Re: "Farm" slang terms

[Mouse]

> [...] just recently I found a reference to "link farm" as meaning "an
> incremental backup consisting mostly of links (most likely hard
> links) to the relevant files in the preceding iteration of the
> backup"; but this page [...] says "a website with little or no
> content, consisting of mostly (or entirely) links to other websites."

I would say that, rather that specifically either of those, it is "a
collection of links to elsewhere and little else", where "link" is a
deliberately vague term.  In particular, I have heard/seen, and used,
it to refer to a directory containing symbolic links to elsewhere and
little/nothing else; my phrasing above is an attempt to capture the
common pattern behind these three uses.

No, I don't know anything significant about the history of any such
terms.  But you might want to look at the Jargon File
(http://www.catb.org/jargon/); it has three entries with "farm" in
their names, which you might be interested in.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

RE: "Farm" slang terms

[Fred Cisin]

So, does anyone know what the first such "farm" slang term was, and when
and where it originated? And how about other terms with "farm" in them?
(I came across a new one the other day, but of course I've forgotten it
now.)


Going back a ways, it originated with growing crops.  Then, it began being 
used for some other agricultural uses, such as a "pig farm".


Later, it began to be used for moderately open land, with collections of 
other stuff, such as a group of windmills became a "wind farm" (Altamont 
pass).


From there, it evolved into collections of anything, such as "server 

farm", and even "cube farm".

Re: "Farm" slang terms

[Eric Christopherson]

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015, Eric Christopherson wrote:
> Hi, all. I'm looking for information on slang terms with the word "farm"
> in them, relating to computaters; especially the origins of such terms.
> I've known "cube farm" (a bunch of cubicles where office workers work)
> and "render farm" (a cluster of computers used for graphics rendering in
> parallel) for a long time, but just recently I found a reference to
> "link farm" as meaning "an incremental backup consisting mostly of links
> (most likely hard links) to the relevant files in the preceding
> iteration of the backup"; but this page
>  says
> "a website with little or no content, consisting of mostly (or entirely)
> links to other websites."

On top of that, FOLDOC has a slightly different meaning again
:

"(file system, Unix)   A directory tree that contains mostly symbolic
links to files in a master directory tree of files. Link farms save
space when one is maintaining several nearly identical copies of the
same source tree - for example, when the only difference is
architecture-dependent object files. They also mean that changes to the
master tree are instantly visible in the link farm. Good text editors
provide the option to replace a link with a new version of the target
file when saving thus allowing the farm to have its own versions of just
those files that differ from the master tree."

This sounds like it just might be an old-school programming practice; I
at least have never seen it in any open-source projects. I've also never
seen this discussed in any text editor documentation; but I know some
editors (perhaps optionally) do remove the existing file before writing
its replacement, which would do what the entry suggests. I just tried it
in Vim on OS X, and both in the case of hard links and symbolic links it
kept the link intact and updated the contents of the original.

> 
> So, does anyone know what the first such "farm" slang term was, and when
> and where it originated? And how about other terms with "farm" in them?
> (I came across a new one the other day, but of course I've forgotten it
> now.)
> 
> -- 
> Eric Christopherson

-- 
Eric Christopherson

Re: "Farm" slang terms

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/18/2015 12:46 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:


Later, it began to be used for moderately open land, with collections
of other stuff, such as a group of windmills became a "wind farm"
(Altamont pass).


I recall a room full of a hundred or more disk drives being referred to 
as a disk farm--but I don't think the usage was standard.


--Chuck

RE: Atari Unix

[ethan]

I have a TT030 and actually was just looking at it last night. It has
a VME slot (as they call it) that has a dual serial port board
installed. I think it has a modem port.

That is an AppleTalk port.


Nope. My TT030 has 2 modem ports (RS232), then 2 more serial ports via VME 
card. The appletalk looking thing is on the side:


http://i.imgur.com/VrUCdGx.jpg

Before it was given to me, I had heard there was a 5 terminal unix 
something or other for the 030 and they used the 4 ports to drive 
termianls. It was random, most of my Atari ST stuff is a long term loan 
from a friend that knows I tinker with them. All of his Atari ST equipment 
is probably from NASA surplus auction.

Re: Data General NOVA 4/C help

[Jay Jaeger]

On 10/18/2015 1:32 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
> Thanks Jay and Rod,
> 
> you gave me a lot of pointers to check. I agree that getting
> a console working is on top of the todo list. However, I better
> put on old clothes for next Saturday. I want to have at least
> a look at the head lock and shipping bracket, but do not want
> to remove the disk out of the rack again. Although I can lift
> it on my own, I did feel my back that evening :-/
> So, it will be sliding out the drive and then crawl under it,
> laying on the floor removing the bottom cover ...
> 

Yup.  I know that drill only too well.

> Haven't thought about looking in the eclipse folder on bitsavers!
> Gonna look for that Virtual Console. The papers that came with
> the system tell about a single letter to start the application,
> not xL, so there might be a console ROM.
> I can probe the header pins on the "multiplexer" paddle board
> to which the terminal connects with a "BERG" header. There are
> just 3 wires, so that must be RxD, TxD and GND.
> 
> tnx!
> - Henk
> 
> 

Re: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout

[Eric Smith]

> To the best of my recollection, the Minnow used disks with 8 sector holes.
> I don't recall the modulation scheme, but FM would be reasonable.

Sure, but were the holes on the outside, like the Memorex, or near the
spindle, like all later 8-inch floppy drives?

Haul of the weekend

[jwsmobile]

A run to a dark corner of Orange County yielded a Sun 4-260 and a 
DecServer 550.  After loading the 4-260 the DecServer 550 seemed like a 
feather.


Also in the pile to be collected, a stash of Hitachi ESDI drives of some 
sort (full high 500mb)  Probably will be selling them.


The storage circumstances was a bit rangy but beggars can't be choosers.

Thanks
Jim

Re: Haul of the weekend

[Pontus Pihlgren]

I might be interested in smaller ESDI (<500MB) if they are in 
decent condition.

/P

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 02:00:07PM -0700, jwsmobile wrote:
> 
> A run to a dark corner of Orange County yielded a Sun 4-260 and a
> DecServer 550.  After loading the 4-260 the DecServer 550 seemed
> like a feather.
> 
> Also in the pile to be collected, a stash of Hitachi ESDI drives of
> some sort (full high 500mb)  Probably will be selling them.
> 
> The storage circumstances was a bit rangy but beggars can't be choosers.
> 
> Thanks
> Jim

Re: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/18/2015 01:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

To the best of my recollection, the Minnow used disks with 8 sector
holes. I don't recall the modulation scheme, but FM would be
reasonable.


Sure, but were the holes on the outside, like the Memorex, or near
the spindle, like all later 8-inch floppy drives?


My recollection is on the outside.  Makes sense, too--far easier to get 
those punched accurately.


--Chuck

Re: "Farm" slang terms

[Eric Christopherson]

On Oct 18, 2015 3:08 PM, "Chuck Guzis"  wrote:
>
> On 10/18/2015 12:46 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>
>> Later, it began to be used for moderately open land, with collections
>> of other stuff, such as a group of windmills became a "wind farm"
>> (Altamont pass).
>
>
> I recall a room full of a hundred or more disk drives being referred to
as a disk farm--but I don't think the usage was standard.
>
> --Chuck
>

That's listed in the Jargon File too; and from there I learned of the
phenomenon of walking disks.

Re: JAMMA board video hookup

[Jules Richardson]

On 10/18/2015 11:48 AM, Zane Healy wrote:


On Oct 18, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Jules Richardson  
wrote:


It came from an Aero Fighters cab - board says "IT-19-02" in the corner. I've 
no idea if it was a one-off for this game or if other games used the same board with 
different firmware.


If you can get it working, it should be a fun game!  I love Aero Fighters 2 & 3 
(aka Sonic Wings) on the Neo Geo.

Looks like this page might have some details to help.


Linky not appearing :-(

I just hooked the board up to a PSU and a speaker, and it makes promising 
tuneful noises (at ear-bleeding volume*) - so it seems like basic CPU, RAM 
and ROM are there at least.


* I've no idea what the original impedance would have been, or how many a 
typical cab had (more than one?).


cheers

Jules

RE: "Farm" slang terms

[Dave Wade]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
> Guzis
> Sent: 18 October 2015 21:09
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> 
> Subject: Re: "Farm" slang terms
> 
> On 10/18/2015 12:46 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> 
> > Later, it began to be used for moderately open land, with collections
> > of other stuff, such as a group of windmills became a "wind farm"
> > (Altamont pass).
> 
> I recall a room full of a hundred or more disk drives being referred to as
a disk
> farm--but I don't think the usage was standard.
> 
> --Chuck

I seem to remember that as well, but from earlier as you say. Looking at
Wikipedia 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antenna_farm

I can see that Antenna Farms is an older term, dating back to at least 1950,
but of course as antenna's are usually in fields..

Dave
G4UGM

RE: "Farm" slang terms

[Fred Cisin]

On Sun, 18 Oct 2015, Dave Wade wrote:

I can see that Antenna Farms is an older term, dating back to at least 1950,
but of course as antenna's are usually in fields..


It gradually evolved from agricultural to ANYTHING,
and then from fields to ANY space.


Does it correlate with the decline of actual FARMING?

Re: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout

[Paul Berger]

On 2015-10-18 6:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 10/18/2015 01:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

To the best of my recollection, the Minnow used disks with 8 sector
holes. I don't recall the modulation scheme, but FM would be
reasonable.


Sure, but were the holes on the outside, like the Memorex, or near
the spindle, like all later 8-inch floppy drives?


My recollection is on the outside.  Makes sense, too--far easier to 
get those punched accurately.


--Chuck
Page 518 of IBM's 360 and Early 370 systems says "On Minnow, the start 
fo a sector had been indicated by eight sector holes uniformly spaced 
around the outer edge of the disk"


It goes on to say that when the first read/write drive was developed 
(Igar) the hard sector holes where dropped in favour of more usable 
surface are.  I have seen the diskettes for minnow and and they where 
considerably less floppy than the later diskette.


It is hardly surprising that Memorex followed this scheme in those days 
they where famous poaching engineers and producing clones of IBM storage 
products.  I remember a customer having a Memorex disk unit on a string 
of 3370s and I think you could have swapped parts between the Memorex 
unit and a 3370.

Re: JAMMA board video hookup

[Zane Healy]

On Oct 18, 2015, at 3:16 PM, Jules Richardson  
wrote:

> On 10/18/2015 11:48 AM, Zane Healy wrote:
>> 
>> On Oct 18, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Jules Richardson  
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> It came from an Aero Fighters cab - board says "IT-19-02" in the corner. 
>>> I've no idea if it was a one-off for this game or if other games used the 
>>> same board with different firmware.
>> 
>> If you can get it working, it should be a fun game!  I love Aero Fighters 2 
>> & 3 (aka Sonic Wings) on the Neo Geo.
>> 
>> Looks like this page might have some details to help.
> 
> Linky not appearing :-(
> 
> I just hooked the board up to a PSU and a speaker, and it makes promising 
> tuneful noises (at ear-bleeding volume*) - so it seems like basic CPU, RAM 
> and ROM are there at least.
> 
> * I've no idea what the original impedance would have been, or how many a 
> typical cab had (more than one?).


If you get that far, then it may have been a monitor problem, rather than a 
board problem.  Or the board problem is in the video circuitry.

Here is the link I meant to send.

http://hacks.slashdirt.org/hw/supergun/

Even now typical cabinets only have one JAMMA board.

I've been researching a project I'm getting ready to start in on.  I want to 
make some custom arcade controllers as I love the old 8-bit game systems, but 
the old controllers are *painfully* bad.  As a result I've come across these 
things on a few pages.  You can find them cheaper on eBay.  It looks like they 
do what you want.

http://www.focusattack.com/gonbes-gbs-8220-v3-cga-ega-yuv-to-vga-arcade-hd-converter-pcb/

Right now I'm stuck on figuring out the best option for housing my controller.  
The first will be a simple Atari joystick replacement that replaces the 
joystick with 4 Happ arcade buttons and two fire buttons (so it can be used for 
either Atari 2600 or 7800.  That's child's play, a good housing isn't.

Zane

Re: JAMMA board video hookup

[ben]

On 10/18/2015 5:12 PM, Zane Healy wrote:

On Oct 18, 2015, at 3:16 PM, Jules Richardson
 wrote:


On 10/18/2015 11:48 AM, Zane Healy wrote:


On Oct 18, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Jules Richardson
 wrote:


It came from an Aero Fighters cab - board says "IT-19-02" in
the corner. I've no idea if it was a one-off for this game or
if other games used the same board with different firmware.


If you can get it working, it should be a fun game!  I love Aero
Fighters 2 & 3 (aka Sonic Wings) on the Neo Geo.

Looks like this page might have some details to help.


Linky not appearing :-(

I just hooked the board up to a PSU and a speaker, and it makes
promising tuneful noises (at ear-bleeding volume*) - so it seems
like basic CPU, RAM and ROM are there at least.

* I've no idea what the original impedance would have been, or how
many a typical cab had (more than one?).



If you get that far, then it may have been a monitor problem, rather
than a board problem.  Or the board problem is in the video
circuitry.

Here is the link I meant to send.

http://hacks.slashdirt.org/hw/supergun/

Even now typical cabinets only have one JAMMA board.

I've been researching a project I'm getting ready to start in on.  I
want to make some custom arcade controllers as I love the old 8-bit
game systems, but the old controllers are *painfully* bad.  As a
result I've come across these things on a few pages.  You can find
them cheaper on eBay.  It looks like they do what you want.

http://www.focusattack.com/gonbes-gbs-8220-v3-cga-ega-yuv-to-vga-arcade-hd-converter-pcb/

 Right now I'm stuck on figuring out the best option for housing my
controller.  The first will be a simple Atari joystick replacement
that replaces the joystick with 4 Happ arcade buttons and two fire
buttons (so it can be used for either Atari 2600 or 7800.  That's
child's play, a good housing isn't.

Zane


If you can make a copy of the roms. If you find a FPGA clone board
of the game, you still need roms.
Ben.

Re: ADVENT on TSX-Plus system?

[Jerry Weiss]

On Oct 18, 2015, at 1:29 PM, ben  wrote:
> 
> On 10/18/2015 12:02 PM, Charles wrote:
>> I have a PDP-11/23+ with 4 MB RAM and two RL02 drives. I can boot
>> RT-11XM, then run VBGEXE and start ADVENT with no problem.
>> 
>> But TSX-Plus 6.50, at least the version I have, has to run over RT-11SJ,
>> and VBGEXE reports "Wrong version". And ADVENT won't run by itself
>> (without VBGEXE), whether SJ or XM.
>> 
>> So is there any way to run ADVENT while running TSX-Plus?
>> 
>> thanks
>> Charles
> 

Charles 
It should directly in TSX-Plus .   Make sure your current memory limit is  56K. 
 
See below for my attempt. BTW TSX should only use RT11 to “boot”.
TSX doesn’t run over RT11SJ in this version.  TSX replaces all the OS code.

.sh memory
…...
Current job memory limit = 56Kb
Maximum job memory limit = 64Kb

.sh ver
6.20
.run advent

WELCOME TO ADVENTURE!!  WOULD YOU LIKE INSTRUCTIONS?

YES
SOMEWHERE NEARBY IS COLOSSAL CAVE, WHERE OTHERS HAVE FOUND FORTUNES IN
TREASURE AND GOLD, THOUGH IT IS RUMORED THAT SOME WHO ENTER ARE NEVER
…….
THIS PROGRAM WAS ORIGINALLY DEVELOPED BY WILLIE CROWTHER.  MOST OF THE
FEATURES OF THE CURRENT PROGRAM WERE ADDED BY DON WOODS (DON @ SU-AI).
THE CURRENT VERSION WAS DONE BY MIKE WESTON.

YOU ARE STANDING AT THE END OF A ROAD BEFORE A SMALL BRICK BUILDING.
AROUND YOU IS A FOREST.  A SMALL STREAM FLOWS OUT OF THE BUILDING AND
DOWN A GULLY.

> Create a PDP8 simulator ... :-)
> Runs and ducks.
> 
> 
> 

If you want authenticity, then a PDP10 and a ASR33 are required….


Happy Spelunking

Jerry

Re: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/18/2015 03:56 PM, Paul Berger wrote:


It goes on to say that when the first read/write drive was developed
 (Igar) the hard sector holes where dropped in favour of more usable
 surface are.  I have seen the diskettes for minnow and and they
where considerably less floppy than the later diskette.


The Memorex 650 accommodated 64 tracks/cylinders instead of the later 
and more customary 77.  It's worthwhile noting that the 651 implements 
FM on the drive--there's no "raw data" signal output.



It is hardly surprising that Memorex followed this scheme in those
days they where famous poaching engineers and producing clones of IBM
storage products.  I remember a customer having a Memorex disk unit
on a string of 3370s and I think you could have swapped parts between
the Memorex unit and a 3370.


IBM occupied a large segment of the market and was a favorite target for 
lots of followers.  If you just observe the passage of Memorex through 
the history of acquisitions and being acquired and sold, it's truly 
amazing that Memorex still exists--as a brand of Imation.


--Chuck

Re: PDP8 / ETOS

[Rick Murphy]

At 08:37 AM 10/18/2015, Johnny Billquist wrote:

I decided to look into this a couple of days ago, since the basic 
workings of FRTS includes using interrupts, which is not possible if 
running under time sharing. That would also imply that it would not be 
possible to use F4 under RTS-8, which I had some memory of that it 
actually is possible.


To sum things up: The FPP-8 can usually not be used when in 
timesharing. First of all, you use IOTs to control the FPP, and all 
IOTs are trapped when in user mode. Second, as you note, the FPP-8 
uses 15-bit addresses, which would make it impossible to use with 
virtual memory.


Also, the interrupt system is not available when in user mode.

However, FRTS actually have code to detect if it is running under 
RTS-8, and do not use the interrupt system in that case, but adopts. 
Also, since the FPP-8 IOTs are caught by RTS-8, and do not do 
anything, FRTS actually believes you are on a system without an FPP-8, 
even if you actually have one. So, FRTS will always use the FPP-8 
emulator in this situation.


MULTOS-8 hook in to the same functionality, making FRTS believe it is 
running under RTS-8, which means that F4 programs will actually work 
under MULTOS-8, including ADVENT. I don't know if ETOS also implements 
the bits needed to make it look like OS/8 programs are actually under 
RTS-8. If it does, ADVENT should be possible to run under ETOS as 
well. Otherwise not.


Sounds like it's possible, if MULTOS-8 can give a user a full 32k to 
work with.


Finally, as I noted, the FPP-8 is not that possible to use in user 
mode, both because of the IOT instructions being caught, and the 
15-bit addressing. However, the FPP-8A have a mode where it only 
allows memory accesses within the same field, and will trap out if any 
memory reference goes to another field. With some work, and code, I 
think it could be possible to actually have access to the FPP-8 from 
user mode, if you have an FPP-8A, but I have never tried this, as I 
lack the hardware.


That's not going to help anything using Fortran-IV, of course. The 
library and user code assumes that "virtual" addresses are the same as 
physical ones. And IOTs aren't "not possible" - they just need to be 
trapped and emulated by the OS.


It wouldn't be all that hard to add support for a FPP to a timesharing 
system as a UUO that knows how to map the user's field to something the 
FPP could use, then locking that field in core, as the FPP will 
continue to DMA from it while executing FPP instructions.


To support even this simple FPP mode would require the underlying OS to 
handle the housekeeping, as the FPP startup needs to know the physical 
field of the active parameter table, which a timeshared user wouldn't 
know.


Seems like a lot of work given the number of FPPs in the wild.

Also, not just FPP8-A has that feature. The "same field as the APT" bit 
is also implemented by the FPP-12. This makes me wonder what 
application there was for this.


Of course, you don't need the hardware to experiment with this. The 
SIMH FPP-8A implementation is as compatible to the hardware as I could 
make it - everything but the maintenance mode IOTs are implemented.

-Rick

Re: PDP8 / ETOS

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-10-19 03:04, Rick Murphy wrote:

At 08:37 AM 10/18/2015, Johnny Billquist wrote:


I decided to look into this a couple of days ago, since the basic
workings of FRTS includes using interrupts, which is not possible if
running under time sharing. That would also imply that it would not be
possible to use F4 under RTS-8, which I had some memory of that it
actually is possible.

To sum things up: The FPP-8 can usually not be used when in
timesharing. First of all, you use IOTs to control the FPP, and all
IOTs are trapped when in user mode. Second, as you note, the FPP-8
uses 15-bit addresses, which would make it impossible to use with
virtual memory.

Also, the interrupt system is not available when in user mode.

However, FRTS actually have code to detect if it is running under
RTS-8, and do not use the interrupt system in that case, but adopts.
Also, since the FPP-8 IOTs are caught by RTS-8, and do not do
anything, FRTS actually believes you are on a system without an FPP-8,
even if you actually have one. So, FRTS will always use the FPP-8
emulator in this situation.

MULTOS-8 hook in to the same functionality, making FRTS believe it is
running under RTS-8, which means that F4 programs will actually work
under MULTOS-8, including ADVENT. I don't know if ETOS also implements
the bits needed to make it look like OS/8 programs are actually under
RTS-8. If it does, ADVENT should be possible to run under ETOS as
well. Otherwise not.


Sounds like it's possible, if MULTOS-8 can give a user a full 32k to
work with.


Yes, it does. Not that this really is the important point I was making, 
but anyway...
The point I was making was that FRTS detects if it is running in the 
background of RTS-8, and patches itself to not use the interrupt system 
in this case. And MULTOS-8 made sure to cause FRTS to think that it is 
running in the background of RTS-8, so that the patches are applied, 
thus making it also able to run under MULTOS-8.


Memory requirements and availability is a different story, but yes, 
ADVENT will require the full 32K, as far as I remember.



Finally, as I noted, the FPP-8 is not that possible to use in user
mode, both because of the IOT instructions being caught, and the
15-bit addressing. However, the FPP-8A have a mode where it only
allows memory accesses within the same field, and will trap out if any
memory reference goes to another field. With some work, and code, I
think it could be possible to actually have access to the FPP-8 from
user mode, if you have an FPP-8A, but I have never tried this, as I
lack the hardware.


That's not going to help anything using Fortran-IV, of course. The
library and user code assumes that "virtual" addresses are the same as
physical ones. And IOTs aren't "not possible" - they just need to be
trapped and emulated by the OS.


No, you are wrong.
Yes, the IOTs just "needs to be implemented". That is the easy part. The 
memory mapping is not. However, the mode in the FPP-8A that restricts 
the FPP code to only allow access within the current field will then 
trap out if the code tries to access anything outside, and the addresses 
are still 15 bits. This means that the OS can then handle this as a page 
fault (field fault?), and swap in the correct field, and then resume 
FPP-8 execution. However, like I said, I have not tried actually 
implementing anything like this, since I don't even have the hardware. 
And I suspect it might be a headache since I guess addresses are still 
absolute, meaning and field relocations done by the OS needs to somehow 
be done for the FPP-8 code as well. Not sure how you'd do that, but I 
think people with enough creativity could maybe come up with some 
solution. I would have to re-read the documentation to see how well I 
remember this stuff...



It wouldn't be all that hard to add support for a FPP to a timesharing
system as a UUO that knows how to map the user's field to something the
FPP could use, then locking that field in core, as the FPP will continue
to DMA from it while executing FPP instructions.


That would prevent more than one user using the FPP-8, though. Doable, 
but not really that useful if you want a timesharing system for more 
than one user.



To support even this simple FPP mode would require the underlying OS to
handle the housekeeping, as the FPP startup needs to know the physical
field of the active parameter table, which a timeshared user wouldn't know.


Not to mention you'd have to figure out how to manage if the FPP wants 
to run in field 0, which the OS needs for its own use...



Seems like a lot of work given the number of FPPs in the wild.


Agreed.


Also, not just FPP8-A has that feature. The "same field as the APT" bit
is also implemented by the FPP-12. This makes me wonder what application
there was for this.


I didn't know the FPP-12 had that. Interesting. Yes, I wonder if 
anything ever used it.



Of course, you don't need the hardware to experiment with this. The SIMH
FPP-8A implem

Re: PDP8 / ETOS

[ben]

On 10/18/2015 8:43 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
thus making it also able to run under MULTOS-8.


Memory requirements and availability is a different story, but yes,
ADVENT will require the full 32K, as far as I remember.


I think a few changes where made a few years back, It could be a bit
smaller now with the latest code.


 Johnny



Ben.

Re: PDP8 / ETOS

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-10-19 04:58, ben wrote:

On 10/18/2015 8:43 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:

thus making it also able to run under MULTOS-8.

Memory requirements and availability is a different story, but yes,
ADVENT will require the full 32K, as far as I remember.


I think a few changes where made a few years back, It could be a bit
smaller now with the latest code.


That would be interesting to check out. You know where I could find it?

Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

Re: PDP8 / ETOS

[ben]

On 10/18/2015 9:08 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:

On 2015-10-19 04:58, ben wrote:

On 10/18/2015 8:43 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:

thus making it also able to run under MULTOS-8.

Memory requirements and availability is a different story, but yes,
ADVENT will require the full 32K, as far as I remember.


I think a few changes where made a few years back, It could be a bit
smaller now with the latest code.


That would be interesting to check out. You know where I could find it?

 Johnny


Last version 2009 2.4
http://www.rickmurphy.net/advent/index.html
Ben.

Re: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout

[Jon Elson]

On 10/18/2015 08:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:


IBM occupied a large segment of the market and was a 
favorite target for lots of followers.  If you just 
observe the passage of Memorex through the history of 
acquisitions and being acquired and sold, it's truly 
amazing that Memorex still exists--as a brand of Imation.
As 3rd party vendors in the IBM plug-compatible arena went, 
Memorex was pretty large.  We had an IBM shop at Washington 
University, but after the CPUs, practically the whole room 
went to Memorex-supported gear.  They get 3330-compatible 
drives, later upgraded to 3350-compatible, and maybe later 
upgraded again.  They used Memorex 3674 controllers (they 
had 2 of them).  They had at least one Memorex 1270 com 
controller.  They had two 370/145s with AMS/Intersil 1 Meg 
memory units, installed and supported by Memorex.  I can't 
recall specifics, but I think there were other memorex units 
there, too.


Jon

Re: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/18/2015 08:39 PM, Jon Elson wrote:


As 3rd party vendors in the IBM plug-compatible arena went, Memorex
was pretty large.  We had an IBM shop at Washington University, but
after the CPUs, practically the whole room went to Memorex-supported
gear. They get 3330-compatible drives, later upgraded to
3350-compatible, and maybe later upgraded again.  They used Memorex
3674 controllers (they had 2 of them).  They had at least one Memorex
1270 com controller. They had two 370/145s with AMS/Intersil 1 Meg
memory units, installed and supported by Memorex.  I can't recall
specifics, but I think there were other memorex units there, too.


I had a friend who worked for Telex back in day; she lost her job when 
Telex girded itself for the legal dustup against IBM.  (Telex sued IBM 
for anti-competitive practices; IBM countersued for copyright 
infringement.)  This was back in the day that it seemed that everyone 
was suing IBM.


Telex was acquired by Memorex back in the 80s.

--Chuck

Re: Data General NOVA 4/C help

[R SMALLWOOD]

Hi
 If the terminal is rs232 get a break out box if you don't already have one.
If terminal plug is a 25way D type connect pins 2 and 3 then see if you get an 
echo back.
Some times the terminal looks for a control signal but 99% of the time pins 2,3 
and 7 (ground) are all you need
Speed, parity and stop bits are probably ok if the terminal was part of the 
system 
The BOB will tell you if the CPU serial port is alive. LEDS on pins 2 and 3 
should be on.

Once the terminal is running then you should get some kind of response from the 
system.

Rod




Original message
>From : cu...@charter.net
Date : 18/10/2015 - 20:26 (UTC)
To : cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject : Re: Data General NOVA 4/C help

On 10/18/2015 1:32 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
> Thanks Jay and Rod,
> 
> you gave me a lot of pointers to check. I agree that getting
> a console working is on top of the todo list. However, I better
> put on old clothes for next Saturday. I want to have at least
> a look at the head lock and shipping bracket, but do not want
> to remove the disk out of the rack again. Although I can lift
> it on my own, I did feel my back that evening :-/
> So, it will be sliding out the drive and then crawl under it,
> laying on the floor removing the bottom cover ...
> 

Yup.  I know that drill only too well.

> Haven't thought about looking in the eclipse folder on bitsavers!
> Gonna look for that Virtual Console. The papers that came with
> the system tell about a single letter to start the application,
> not xL, so there might be a console ROM.
> I can probe the header pins on the "multiplexer" paddle board
> to which the terminal connects with a "BERG" header. There are
> just 3 wires, so that must be RxD, TxD and GND.
> 
> tnx!
> - Henk
> 
>