Re: HP 5480A, or, obscure HP instruments

[Peter Brown]

--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From: cu...@charter.net
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 09:23:06 -0500
Subject: Re: HP 5480A, or, obscure HP instruments / was Re: More on manuals 
plus rescue

On 8/22/2015 8:14 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
 
> 
> It only helps a little though and when eBay eliminated wildcard matching
> awhile back, they also reduced the maximum query length. What I /really/
> don't like about eBay's current search system, is how it substitutes
> keywords internally. If I search for "Compaq", I don't want results for
> "HP", and likewise if I search for "HP", I don't want results for
> "Compaq"...
> 

[Straying towards test equipment part]

Was there any resolution to the original request for HP5480A service 
information?

I have fiches for this instrument as follows

1. 5480A - Signal Analyzer Operating manual Part 1 - 05480-90014(fiche) - 2 
fiches, 60 pages per fiche
2. 5480A/B - Signal Analyzer system vol 1System service manual - 
05480-90015(fiche) 7 fiches, 60 pages per fiche
3. 5480A/B - Signal Analyzer system operating and service manual - 
05480-90025(fiche) 5 fiches, 60 pages per fiche
4. 5480A/B - Signal Analyzer with 5485A, 5486AB, 5487A, 5488A service Volume 2, 
3 and 4 - 05480-90016(fiche) 8 fiches, 60 pages per fiche

.. but no way of printing them out

[On topic part]

Is there a cost effective / group accessible method for making manuals that 
were originally supplied on fiche available to the group?

Regards

Peter
  

Re: Sign magnitude, one's complement, two's complement

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 22, 2015, at 10:31 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
> On 08/22/2015 06:26 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
> than the usual rule).
>>> 
>>> I recall the "integer multiply" feature (i.e. optional) available
>>> on the 6000.  IXi  Xj*Xk, but it didn't provide any more precision
>>> than the usual unnormalized double-precision multiply  DXi  Xj*Xk,
>>> but saved some time spent fiddling with exponent fields.
>> 
>> ???  Never heard of any such thing.  IXi Xj*Xk is a defined opcode,
>> but it's simply a synonym for Dxi Xj*Xk.
> 
> Well, we were always the guinea pig for QSEs in SSD.  It's not described in 
> the Cyber 70 docs, but we had Cybers fitted with the option.  It did make its 
> way into the 170s however:
> 
> In 60456100A, re: the 42 instruction (page 4-24, second column):
> 
> "This instruction is used in multiple-precision floating-point calculations.  
> This instruction also provides for integer multiplication capabilities where 
> both operands have an exponent value of plus or minus zero and neither 
> coefficient has been normalized.  The integer result sent to Xi is *48 bits 
> with a 60-bit sign extension* (emphasis mine)."

Ok, but that is simply the standard 6000 series double multiply.  That's not an 
optional feature; the behavior you describe is how it always works and why 
IXX*X is a synonym for DXX*X.  All that's going on here is that the exponent 
field remains zero, so it acts as an extended sign field.

paul

FYI gmane cctalk group

[Al Kossow]

just noticed this

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.announce/23246/match=gmane+comp+hardware+vintage

From: Mailing List Manager  gmane.org>
Subject: New group gmane.comp.hardware.vintage
Newsgroups: gmane.announce
Date: 2015-05-19 10:57:19 GMT (13 weeks, 6 days, 3 hours and 39 minutes ago)

The newsgroup gmane.comp.hardware.vintage has been created.
The subject of the first message posted was

 Subject: Re: EPROM dumps for HP Draftmaster II 7596A

This newsgroup corresponds to the cctalk mailing list.

Description: Classic Computing Talk (non-public).

http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.hardware.vintage>
nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.hardware.vintage>

RE: FYI gmane cctalk group

[dwight]

 
> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 07:38:25 -0700
> From: a...@bitsavers.org
> To: gene...@classiccmp.org; classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
> cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: FYI gmane cctalk group
> 
> just noticed this
> 
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.announce/23246/match=gmane+comp+hardware+vintage
> 
> From: Mailing List Manager  gmane.org>
> Subject: New group gmane.comp.hardware.vintage
> Newsgroups: gmane.announce
> Date: 2015-05-19 10:57:19 GMT (13 weeks, 6 days, 3 hours and 39 minutes ago)
> 
> The newsgroup gmane.comp.hardware.vintage has been created.
> The subject of the first message posted was
> 
>   Subject: Re: EPROM dumps for HP Draftmaster II 7596A
> 
> This newsgroup corresponds to the cctalk mailing list.
> 
> Description: Classic Computing Talk (non-public).
> 
> http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.hardware.vintage>
> nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.hardware.vintage>
> 
What does " This newsgroup corresponds to the cctalk mailing list."mean?Dwight  
  

RE: FYI gmane cctalk group

[Jay West]

That means they are copying the list without permission.

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2015 10:22 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: RE: FYI gmane cctalk group


 
> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 07:38:25 -0700
> From: a...@bitsavers.org
> To: gene...@classiccmp.org; classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: FYI gmane cctalk group
> 
> just noticed this
> 
>
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.announce/23246/match=gmane+comp+hardware+vint
age
> 
> From: Mailing List Manager  gmane.org>
> Subject: New group gmane.comp.hardware.vintage
> Newsgroups: gmane.announce
> Date: 2015-05-19 10:57:19 GMT (13 weeks, 6 days, 3 hours and 39 minutes
ago)
> 
> The newsgroup gmane.comp.hardware.vintage has been created.
> The subject of the first message posted was
> 
>   Subject: Re: EPROM dumps for HP Draftmaster II 7596A
> 
> This newsgroup corresponds to the cctalk mailing list.
> 
> Description: Classic Computing Talk (non-public).
> 
> http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.hardware.vintage>
> nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.hardware.vintage>
> 
What does " This newsgroup corresponds to the cctalk mailing
list."mean?Dwight =

VMS7.3 dismount of a device with pagefile before shutdown?

[Holm Tiffe]

Hi,

I've managed to relaocate the pagefile.sys of my VMS7.3 to the secondary
disk disk1$dia1 because of space considerations of the first disk (380MB
total, free blocks 228672 now).

I've seen complaints of the system that the disk wasn't properly dismounted
after each reboot and would be rebuild. A hint from my friend Vaxman was,
to mount the disk with the option /NOREBUILD in SYPAGSWPFILES.COM so it
looks like this now:

$ MOUNT/SYSTEM/NOASSIST/NOREBUILD DISK1$DIA1: DATA1
$ RUN SYS$SYSTEM:SYSGEN
 INSTALL DISK1$DIA1:[SYSEXE]PAGEFILE1.SYS/PAGEFILE  
 EXIT
$ EXIT

Is there an other way to properly dismount the drive at the shutdown?
My home directory lives on the 2nd disk too..and I think /NOREBUILD
supresses the warning message, but not the problem at all..


Regards,

Holm
-- 
  Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
 Freiberger Straße 42, 09600 Oberschöna, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, i...@tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741

Re: In Realtime: Saving 25,000 Manuals — August 15, 2015

[Dave Woyciesjes]

On 08/21/2015 08:08 PM, Liam Proven wrote:

On 15 August 2015 at 13:03, Liam Proven  wrote:

http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683

Apologies if this is old news...



Some pictures, from sun-rescue:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/albums/72157657277241785/page1


I'm curious, what percentage of thier stock was saved?

--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.

Re: In Realtime: Saving 25,000 Manuals — August 15, 2015

[Jason Scott]

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Dave Woyciesjes 
wrote:

> On 08/21/2015 08:08 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> On 15 August 2015 at 13:03, Liam Proven  wrote:
>>
>>> http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683
>>>
>>> Apologies if this is old news...
>>>
>>
>>
>> Some pictures, from sun-rescue:
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/albums/72157657277241785/page1
>>
>> I'm curious, what percentage of thier stock was saved?


If you go by "unique manuals", 95-99%.
If you go by "total number of manuals, including duplicates", probably
25-30%.

Re: In Realtime: Saving 25,000 Manuals — August 15, 2015

[Ethan Dicks]

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 2:19 PM, Jason Scott  wrote:
>>> I'm curious, what percentage of thier stock was saved?
>
> If you go by "unique manuals", 95-99%.
> If you go by "total number of manuals, including duplicates", probably
> 25-30%.

Heroic!

-ethan

RE: De-yellowing

[Ali]

> If you're talking about rattle-can painting, I can believe that.
> 
> But there's painting using professional spray gear, as well as powder-
> coating.  Rattle-can was never intended as anything but an "any idiot
> can do it" proposition.
> 


Hi Chuck,

Actually I was talking about professional spray gear in a vented hood. I agree 
spray can is definitely a non-starter but so is powder coating for most people. 
My point was in the general hobbyist community most of us have access to spray 
cans or at best a spray gun. A few of us may have access to an oven (through a 
body shop for example) and very high end paint but then the cost begins to go 
up exponentially. Even then there is texture to worry about and color matching. 
Given these limitations painting a case is really not feasible for most of us. 
Retrobright while imperfect is good for the occasional times when you want to 
show off your gear (sort of like waxing and buffing the chrome on the old car 
to a super shine before taking it to an auto show). Paint offers a bit of a 
better look but with its own tradeoffs. 

We ma all just have to live with yellow gear ;).

-Ali

Re: VMS7.3 dismount of a device with pagefile before shutdown?

[Peter Coghlan]

Holm Tiffe wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've managed to relaocate the pagefile.sys of my VMS7.3 to the secondary
> disk disk1$dia1 because of space considerations of the first disk (380MB
> total, free blocks 228672 now).
>
> I've seen complaints of the system that the disk wasn't properly dismounted
> after each reboot and would be rebuild. A hint from my friend Vaxman was,
> to mount the disk with the option /NOREBUILD in SYPAGSWPFILES.COM so it
> looks like this now:
>
> $ MOUNT/SYSTEM/NOASSIST/NOREBUILD DISK1$DIA1: DATA1
> $ RUN SYS$SYSTEM:SYSGEN
>  INSTALL DISK1$DIA1:[SYSEXE]PAGEFILE1.SYS/PAGEFILE  
>  EXIT
> $ EXIT
>
> Is there an other way to properly dismount the drive at the shutdown?

If you are using @SYS$SYSTEM:SHUTDOWN to shut down, this should issue a
DISMOUNT /ABORT /OVERRIDE=CHECKS (optionally /CLUSTER and /UNLOAD) for each
disk that is mounted.  However, this only marks the disk for dismount and the
disk might not actually get dismounted if there are processes still accessing
files (including the pagefile) on the disk by the time the CPU is halted.

You might see some messages at shutdown time saying that the disk has been
marked for dismount or maybe there might be a message saying it couldn't be
dismounted?

It works ok for me with VAX/VMS 5.5-2 on a VAXstation 3100 but I have a pagefile
on the system disk as well as a pagefile on a second disk and this setup may
be less likely to end up with a system process which cannot be stopped grimly
hanging on to the pagefile on the second disk at shutdown time (because the
system processes will most likely get pagefile allocations in the pagefile on
the system disk, not the pagefile on the second disk.) 

>
> My home directory lives on the 2nd disk too..and I think /NOREBUILD
> supresses the warning message, but not the problem at all..
>

The /NOREBUILD means don't rebuild the free space cache.  If the free space
cache is not rebuilt after the disk is improperly dismounted, the result is
that not all of the free space on the disk will be available for use.  There
will not be damage to the filesystem or data loss.  The missing free space
can be recovered using SET VOLUME /REBUILD at some more convenient time after
booting instead of having MOUNT /REBUILD hold up the boot process.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

Looking for some shipping help with a M33 teletype

[Randy Dawson]

I posted this about a week or so ago.

I bought a teletype in Elkorn, Wisconsin and need a volunteer to help with the 
shipping;

Take it off the pedestal;
Put the shipping bolt in the printer;
Watch craters and freighters, that they have plenty of foam to cushion the unit.

I will pay you for this service...

Thanks,

Randy Dawson
  

Re: De-yellowing

[William Donzelli]

> Actually I was talking about professional spray gear in a vented hood. I 
> agree spray can is definitely a non-starter but so is powder coating for most 
> people. My point was in the general hobbyist community most of us have access 
> to spray cans or at best a spray gun. A few of us may have access to an oven 
> (through a body shop for example) and very high end paint but then the cost 
> begins to go up exponentially. Even then there is texture to worry about and 
> color matching. Given these limitations painting a case is really not 
> feasible for most of us.

A low end single-action Badger or Paasche airbrush set is pretty inexpensive.

--
Will

Re: De-yellowing

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/24/2015 11:37 AM, Ali wrote:

I was working on a Sharp brand tabletop copier.  I was surprised to find 
that the thing was "painted" with a very fine (almost like fine sand) 
texture.  So there are surprises.


I'm not into the de-yellowing thing myself.  There's no evidence that 
de-yellowing improves the durability of objects.  A museum curator 
preparing an exhibit might well use a water-based acrylic that can 
easily be washed off.


As the old real-estate line goes, "You'll never notice with the shades 
drawn and the lights out".


--Chuck

RE: De-yellowing

[tony duell]

> I'm not into the de-yellowing thing myself.  There's no evidence that
> de-yellowing improves the durability of objects.  A museum curator

Precisely my view, as I said a couple of days ago. If there is some
way to 'stabilise' the plastic so it doesn't go brittle or just fall apart
on its own then I would consider trying it. But not a cosmetic colour
change that will not make my VT100 or whatever last any longer.

> preparing an exhibit might well use a water-based acrylic that can
> easily be washed off.

Which would be, I think, totally useless for an object which is going to be
handled and used, like most classic computers here.

-tony

Re: De-yellowing

[William Donzelli]

> I'm not into the de-yellowing thing myself.  There's no evidence that
> de-yellowing improves the durability of objects.  A museum curator preparing
> an exhibit might well use a water-based acrylic that can easily be washed
> off.

That is what the Air and Space Museum has done for a while - a very
thin wax coat covers the original, untouched finish, and a new paint
job is applied onto the wax. Apparently it is easy to strip off, thus
a reversible portion of a restoration, but I think the paint is not
durable at all (which is why you should not touch things in museums
unless given permission).

I am not a fan of the Retrobrite process, although I have never tried
it out. In my mind it just seems wrong.

--
Will

Re: De-yellowing

[COURYHOUSE]

and I  will add...   the Retrobrite...  we are  not  sure  what the long  
term effect   is
 It  would be a real bummer if  50  years  from  now the object 
decomposes OH N 
 
Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
In a message dated 8/24/2015 12:37:14 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
wdonze...@gmail.com writes:

> I'm  not into the de-yellowing thing myself.  There's no evidence that
>  de-yellowing improves the durability of objects.  A museum curator  
preparing
> an exhibit might well use a water-based acrylic that can  easily be washed
> off.

That is what the Air and Space Museum has  done for a while - a very
thin wax coat covers the original, untouched  finish, and a new paint
job is applied onto the wax. Apparently it is easy  to strip off, thus
a reversible portion of a restoration, but I think the  paint is not
durable at all (which is why you should not touch things in  museums
unless given permission).

I am not a fan of the Retrobrite  process, although I have never tried
it out. In my mind it just seems  wrong.

--
Will

Re: HP 5480A, or, obscure HP instruments

[Tothwolf]

On Mon, 24 Aug 2015, Peter Brown wrote:

Was there any resolution to the original request for HP5480A service 
information?


I have fiches for this instrument as follows

1. 5480A - Signal Analyzer Operating manual Part 1 - 05480-90014(fiche) - 2 
fiches, 60 pages per fiche
2. 5480A/B - Signal Analyzer system vol 1System service manual - 
05480-90015(fiche) 7 fiches, 60 pages per fiche
3. 5480A/B - Signal Analyzer system operating and service manual - 
05480-90025(fiche) 5 fiches, 60 pages per fiche
4. 5480A/B - Signal Analyzer with 5485A, 5486AB, 5487A, 5488A service Volume 2, 
3 and 4 - 05480-90016(fiche) 8 fiches, 60 pages per fiche

.. but no way of printing them out

[On topic part]

Is there a cost effective / group accessible method for making manuals 
that were originally supplied on fiche available to the group?


Possibly. I'll email you some contact information off-list.

Re: In Realtime: Saving 25,000 Manuals — August 15, 2015

[Tothwolf]

On Mon, 24 Aug 2015, Jason Scott wrote:

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Dave Woyciesjes  
wrote:

On 08/21/2015 08:08 PM, Liam Proven wrote:

On 15 August 2015 at 13:03, Liam Proven  wrote:


http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683

Apologies if this is old news...


Some pictures, from sun-rescue:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/albums/72157657277241785/page1


I'm curious, what percentage of thier stock was saved?


If you go by "unique manuals", 95-99%.
If you go by "total number of manuals, including duplicates", probably 
25-30%.


Possibly more. When I spoke to Becky last Thursday, she mentioned several 
local people wanted to come pick up whatever was left. I have no idea if 
that has actually happened though.

So, what's the deal with DigiBarn?

[Ian Finder]

Hey all-

I've always wondered about this.

Their website hasn't seen a proper update in years, and it looks like they
have a lot of choice hardware donated to them that they may not be
maintaining... Is it open to the public?

Are people actively volunteering there to make sure this stuff is shown
some love and not falling into disrepair? Keeping leaky batteries,
capacitors, rust at bay, and doing repairs? Imaging disks?

They have some very worthwhile examples of machines but I haven't seen much
from them as an organization in years!

I'm sure lots of people would be willing to help if they are
under-resourced.

Thanks,

- Ian

-- 
   Ian Finder
   ian.fin...@gmail.com

Re: De-yellowing

[Chris Elmquist]

I recently restored several VT100 that were extremely yellowed as well
as filthy dirty.

I put the plastics in my bathtub and sprayed them heavily with "Krud
Kutter", intending only to remove the dirt.  To my surprise, much of
the yellowing came off too.   It didn't return them to their pristine
original color but significantly reduced the yellowing as a tea colored
runoff pooled in the bottom of the tub.

https://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/krud-kutter/cleaners-and-stain-removers/original-krud-kutter

I rinsed with clear water and hit them again with a soaking of the Krud
Kutter and more "tea" came off.  After a third try, no more tea and so
I quit.  They look really good now and I shined up the brown plastic
areas with some "Armor All" which gives it a nice shine.

I did four VT100 this way with the same results on all of them.

I don't think any of this was harsh to the plastics and so I will use
it again on other yellowed stuff.

Chris
-- 
Chris Elmquist

Re: De-yellowing

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 24, 2015, at 7:28 PM, Chris Elmquist  wrote:
> 
> I recently restored several VT100 that were extremely yellowed as well
> as filthy dirty.
> 
> I put the plastics in my bathtub and sprayed them heavily with "Krud
> Kutter", intending only to remove the dirt.  To my surprise, much of
> the yellowing came off too.   

Sometimes yellow is color change of the plastic, and sometimes it's just crud.  
Our current home was rather yellow inside when we moved in.  After I sprayed 
everything with windex and wiped it all down, it was back to white.  The yellow 
was simply a large amount of tobacco residue from the chain smoking late owner.

paul

RE: De-yellowing

[Ali]

> I recently restored several VT100 that were extremely yellowed as well
> as filthy dirty.
> 
> I put the plastics in my bathtub and sprayed them heavily with "Krud
> Kutter", intending only to remove the dirt.  To my surprise, much of
> the yellowing came off too.   It didn't return them to their pristine
> original color but significantly reduced the yellowing as a tea colored
> runoff pooled in the bottom of the tub.

Chris,

Do you have pictures? I wonder if one of the main ingredients maybe H2O2.
Also how long ago did you do this? There may not have been enough time for a
return to the yellow color.

-Ali

Re: De-yellowing

[Chris Elmquist]

On Monday (08/24/2015 at 07:41PM -0400), Paul Koning wrote:
> 
> > On Aug 24, 2015, at 7:28 PM, Chris Elmquist  wrote:
> > 
> > I recently restored several VT100 that were extremely yellowed as well
> > as filthy dirty.
> > 
> > I put the plastics in my bathtub and sprayed them heavily with "Krud
> > Kutter", intending only to remove the dirt.  To my surprise, much of
> > the yellowing came off too.   
> 
> Sometimes yellow is color change of the plastic, and sometimes it's just 
> crud.  Our current home was rather yellow inside when we moved in.  After I 
> sprayed everything with windex and wiped it all down, it was back to white.  
> The yellow was simply a large amount of tobacco residue from the chain 
> smoking late owner.

oh yes-- I'm very aware of the yellow you get from tobacco smoke and this
was not that.  There was no residue inside the units or any associated
sticky or tar evidence either.

You could also tell where there was more yellowing due to orientation of
the units--  as if they were facing a window or flourescent lights, etc.

Chris
-- 
Chris Elmquist

Re: De-yellowing

[Chris Elmquist]

On Monday (08/24/2015 at 04:43PM -0700), Ali wrote:
> > I recently restored several VT100 that were extremely yellowed as well
> > as filthy dirty.
> > 
> > I put the plastics in my bathtub and sprayed them heavily with "Krud
> > Kutter", intending only to remove the dirt.  To my surprise, much of
> > the yellowing came off too.   It didn't return them to their pristine
> > original color but significantly reduced the yellowing as a tea colored
> > runoff pooled in the bottom of the tub.
> 
> Chris,
> 
> Do you have pictures? I wonder if one of the main ingredients maybe H2O2.
> Also how long ago did you do this? There may not have been enough time for a
> return to the yellow color.

I don't have any pictures--  no before/after sort of thing as I am
usually done with these projects before I think about taking pictures.
I'm not big on that.

I did this a little over a year ago and they look the same today as
they did when I finished putting them back together.   Not that this is
any evidence of how they will look in 30 more years but there's a good
chance I will be done with them by then any way...

Chris
-- 
Chris Elmquist

Re: De-yellowing

[TeoZ]

Sometimes the yellow coming off is just the degraded plastic. Even a mild 
cleaning just removes the surface layer of degraded plastic.


-Original Message- 
From: Chris Elmquist

Sent: Monday, August 24, 2015 7:56 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: De-yellowing

On Monday (08/24/2015 at 04:43PM -0700), Ali wrote:

> I recently restored several VT100 that were extremely yellowed as well
> as filthy dirty.
>
> I put the plastics in my bathtub and sprayed them heavily with "Krud
> Kutter", intending only to remove the dirt.  To my surprise, much of
> the yellowing came off too.   It didn't return them to their pristine
> original color but significantly reduced the yellowing as a tea colored
> runoff pooled in the bottom of the tub.

Chris,

Do you have pictures? I wonder if one of the main ingredients maybe H2O2.
Also how long ago did you do this? There may not have been enough time for 
a

return to the yellow color.


I don't have any pictures--  no before/after sort of thing as I am
usually done with these projects before I think about taking pictures.
I'm not big on that.

I did this a little over a year ago and they look the same today as
they did when I finished putting them back together.   Not that this is
any evidence of how they will look in 30 more years but there's a good
chance I will be done with them by then any way...

Chris
--
Chris Elmquist 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations?

[steve shumaker]

On 8/22/2015 6:31 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 08/22/2015 02:14 PM, Al Kossow wrote:



No, I haven't the faintest idea where you would even find a copy today.


I did find a reference to the CCVS suite of tests for sequential I/O:

http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA019757 



TOG lists the 1985 suite as the standard validation for COBOL, but the 
link goes to NCC and thence to a 404.


One used to be able to get such stuff from the USDOC, but I doubt that 
they would know what you were talking about today.


I suspect that there's a reel of tape somewhere with the damned things 
on it.


--Chuck







Actually, with a little digging on DTIC I found another reference 
9actaully several - the full manual is there -  and ended up on NTIS 
which shows it *still* available although when you click the link the 
product number gives an error and suggests you contact customer 
service:. Al?



https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/dashboard/searchResults.xhtml?searchQuery=ADA024912


steve

Re: So, what's the deal with DigiBarn?

[COURYHOUSE]

I  wrote them  with an Osborne  question  as we   got a osborne 1 but it 
was later and slicker  and   they   replied  other than that I  do not  know.
 
Seems we are getting hit  with  computers  with handles on  them  this  
month.  A RS  4P  showed up today!
 
 
Ed Sharpe archivist  for SMECC
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 8/24/2015 3:30:06 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
ian.fin...@gmail.com writes:

Hey  all-

I've always wondered about this.

Their website hasn't seen  a proper update in years, and it looks like they
have a lot of choice  hardware donated to them that they may not be
maintaining... Is it open to  the public?

Are people actively volunteering there to make sure this  stuff is shown
some love and not falling into disrepair? Keeping leaky  batteries,
capacitors, rust at bay, and doing repairs? Imaging  disks?

They have some very worthwhile examples of machines but I  haven't seen much
from them as an organization in years!

I'm sure  lots of people would be willing to help if they  are
under-resourced.

Thanks,

- Ian

-- 
Ian Finder
ian.fin...@gmail.com

Re: In Realtime: Saving 25,000 Manuals — August 15, 2015

[Dave Woyciesjes]

On 08/24/2015 02:19 PM, Jason Scott wrote:

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Dave Woyciesjes 
wrote:


On 08/21/2015 08:08 PM, Liam Proven wrote:


On 15 August 2015 at 13:03, Liam Proven  wrote:


http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683

Apologies if this is old news...




Some pictures, from sun-rescue:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/albums/72157657277241785/page1

 I'm curious, what percentage of thier stock was saved?



If you go by "unique manuals", 95-99%.
If you go by "total number of manuals, including duplicates", probably
25-30%.


Wow, a lot fo work. Wish I was close enough to help. Good job.

--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.

Re: (OT?) Copyright and IP

[Tony Aiuto]

Yes. Information by itself has no behavior.

Water and electricity are especially bad analogies, because they are both
tangible. When you use the water or charge, it is gone. You can't take one
water molecule have share it between 100 people. You can, however, share
the same bit of information to an infinite number of others. So maybe it is
not "information wants to be free", it's that "Information is a Tribble.
Turn your back and you have more information."

On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 12:23 AM, drlegendre .  wrote:

> "This goes directly against how information
> behaves, which is to flow freely. "
>
> Information has neither preference nor intent, nor any other inherent
> behavioral characteristic(s).
>
> You could make a water or electricity analogy - but both of those are most
> often regulated, channeled, stored-up and rationed-out out as needed.
>
> As much as I find appeal in the notion that "Information wants to be free",
> information, per se, cannot want for anything at all.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 7:13 AM, Alexis Kotlowy <
> thrashb...@kaput.homeunix.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi List,
> >
> > This relates to the ongoing discussion about vintage computer software
> > copyright.
> >
> > A year or so ago I did some Beta videotape backups for the Australian
> > Computer Society. They're of keynote speeches at the 10th Australian
> > Computer Conference in 1983. One that I'd like to mention is by Tania
> > Amochev from (then) Control Data Corporation, titled Information
> > Services of the Future.
> >
> > In it, things we now call data mining and Google AdSense are discussed,
> > and the potential of data services in general (this is in 1983). One
> > thing that struck me was the contrast between traditional copyright of
> > material items, and how such ideas don't apply very well to non-material
> > information.
> >
> > I was left with the impression that the idea of "Intellectual Property"
> > is in some ways an attempt to force information to be treated like
> > materials, which is an easy way to put a value information, but also
> > allows it to be hoarded. This goes directly against how information
> > behaves, which is to flow freely. This free-flow of information allows
> > more information to be derived or generated, enhancing productivity and
> > overall knowledge.
> >
> > To quote: "Information is diffusive - it leaks. The more it leaks, the
> > more of it there is. Information is aggressive, even imperialistic. It
> > simply breaks out of its unnatural bonds, the bonds of secrecy in which
> > 'thing minded' people try to lock it. So secrecy, property rights,
> > confidentiality, all enshrined in Western thought and law, are not
> > particularly effective restraints on information."
> >
> > This is not a cry to abolish copyright and intellectual property laws,
> > but to highlight some of the inadequacies of the thought process behind
> > these laws when dealing with high speed, global information.
> >
> > Does anyone have any thoughts? If there was a massive shift in the
> > fundamental philosophy of how information should be valued, where would
> > you like that shift to go? For example, is there a way to pay
> > programmers and similar professions by the quality of their work, rather
> > than just the number of lines of code they write. How do you measure the
> > quality of information?
> >
> > I'll see if I can get permission to have the six keynote addresses put
> > online, because they're all fascinating.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Alexis.
> >
> > P.S., if this is way off topic, my apologies.
> >
>

Re: SA-800/801 saga continues / schematic request

[Jay Jaeger]

On 8/23/2015 9:39 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:

> 
> When I connect up drive "X", the +24V series pass transistor gets very
> warm and the +24V drops to around +8.5V (regardless of whether or not
> the stepper motor leads are connected).   On the circuit board, a
> Shugart ASIC 16270-1 gets quite hot, and is clearly dead.  This chip is
> labeled WR/CHNL in an SA-850 schematic, and is listed in the Shugart
> spares catalog as "IC, Write Channel".  It is indeed fed from the +24V
> line on pin 15, and connects to the erase and center tap terminals on
> the head.  [I have not measured the head to see if it was damaged - nope
> not].  I expect that if I pull that chip, the board will not overload
> the +24V supply.
> 
> When I connect up drive "Y", the +24V series pass transistor on the
> power supply gets very hot, but nothing on the circuit board gets hot at
> all, and the +24V drops to 0.  The board measures as a dead short with
> an ohmmeter (even "X" shows *some* resistance).  The stepper driver IC,
> a standard part UNL2074 (quad darlington power transistors in a 14-pin
> DIP no less) has a suspicious bump on its head, so I will probably start
> by pulling it and see what changes (I hope that is it), and if that is
> the issue, I will also check the voltage clamping diodes in the output
> circuit and the stepper windings and the 7404 that drives it to make
> sure it wasn't collateral damage.  I expect regardless of the cause, the
> dead short will be not *too* difficult to find and correct.
> 
> So, now the saga of the Altos power supply is fully understood.  It was
> the second drive from the DSD-440 that actually killed it.  Fortunately,
> the DSD-440 power supply was apparently robust enough to put up with the
> abuse.
> 
> With a little luck, I can make one whole SA-801 out of the pair
> (focusing on "Y" since I have no source for that 16270 ASIC), and then
> use the mechanism of "X" with the board from the Altos SA-800 to make a
> working SA-800 for the Altos.
> 
> JRJ
> 

Some GOOD NEWS for a change. I pulled the UNL2074 from drive "Y", and
the short remained. The next most obvious component for a dead short was
actually a little 4.7uf filter capacitor - and indeed that was the
culprit. The board from drive "X" donated its corresponding capacitor,
as the odds of me fixing that board are not very good, owing to the
16270-1 Shugart ASIC. Returned the UNL2074 back into the board on "Y".

Erased (with a tape eraser for open reel tapes back in the 60's),
formatted a floppy and tested, including interchange with the original
second drive in the Altos, and all is well.

Tomorrow I get to test the 2nd 801 (drive "X") mechanism with the board
from drive "Y". I expect it will be fine as well. Then I can swap out
the electronics from the original first Altos drive onto drive "Y" (they
are plug compatible that way) to get another working drive.

BTW, the replacement FD-1791B-02 (I actually tested to) did help with
the hung floppy controller after errors syndrome - it happened
significantly less often that with a FD-1791B-01 .

JRJ

Re: Osborne O1 Keyboard issues

[Jules Richardson]

On 08/23/2015 03:28 AM, drlegendre . wrote:

Howdy gents,

Working away on the recently acquired Osborne 1. Seems there's something
wrong with the KB - and if I didn't know better, I'd say it's a case of
shorted contacts.

The KB connector is 24 pins, double row header like a short floppy or IDE
header.

On the KB side, there are two "shorted" groups of pins. Group one is 2X
shortred pins, group two is 5X shorted pins.


I just prodded mine with a meter, and the only continuity I get is between 
pins 2 and 23 (numbered as follows, looking into the keyboard connector, 
with the cable exiting toward the right)


 _
| nc 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 nc nc |
| nc 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 nc |==
 -


Thing is, this KB is not really built to be serviced, best as I can tell.


Yeah, I just opened the case on mine, and it's a pretty nasty design - 
cheap as possible :-( Wish I'd tried that keyboard on my system now so you 
knew it had problems!



With such limited access, I don't see many avenues other than flushing with
solvent(s) and hoping for the best.


Yeah, I'd do that first - or maybe soapy water followed by a flush with 
distilled, then leave it for a week or so to dry. Can't hurt.


If that doesn't work... break the melted plastic bits off, take the thing 
apart, clean the membrane. Reassemble and put blobs of glue where the 
melted plastic bits were. If you have a drill press, counter-sink the holes 
on the underside of the metal plate first; it'll give the glue more plastic 
to adhere to.


If gluing doesn't work out... urgh. The switch bodies do seem to have a 
little lip around the edges where they rest up against the membrane, so it 
would be possible to slot metal bars down between the rows (secured at 
either end somehow to the metal 'baseplate' below) in order to keep the 
switches from falling out - but it would certainly be a bit of a project!


Nasty keyboard, though! I expect mine will go the same way at some point :/

cheers

Jules

Re: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations?

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/24/2015 05:31 PM, steve shumaker wrote:


Actually, with a little digging on DTIC I found another reference
9actaully several - the full manual is there -  and ended up on NTIS
 which shows it *still* available although when you click the link
the product number gives an error and suggests you contact customer
service:. Al?


https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/dashboard/searchResults.xhtml?searchQuery=ADA024912


Thanks for that--I ran into that one too.

Considering that it's listed as a 9 track tape, how likely do you think 
that the good souls at NTIS even know what the heck that is--much less 
being able to provide it?


--Chuck

Re: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations?

[steve shumaker]

On 8/24/2015 6:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 08/24/2015 05:31 PM, steve shumaker wrote:


Actually, with a little digging on DTIC I found another reference
9actaully several - the full manual is there -  and ended up on NTIS
 which shows it *still* available although when you click the link
the product number gives an error and suggests you contact customer
service:. Al?


https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/dashboard/searchResults.xhtml?searchQuery=ADA024912 



Thanks for that--I ran into that one too.

Considering that it's listed as a 9 track tape, how likely do you 
think that the good souls at NTIS even know what the heck that 
is--much less being able to provide it?


--Chuck




No clue - but I've found some seriously old stuff lurking there in the 
past.  If anyone would know tape it ought to be these folks.  The fact 
that it's still in the catalog is encouraging.  Perhaps they archived it 
to different media and didn't update the link -  certainly worth an 
inquiry. Did your DTIC search catch  the user manual?


Steve

Re: Osborne O1 Keyboard issues

[drlegendre .]

Hi Jules,

Oh, no worries - I'd have taken it in this condition whether or not you
were aware of the issues. After all, it +was+ a gift, and a very generous
one at that; not just in terms of materiel, but in terms of your time
spent, as well.

On the bright side, I may be able to send you some bootable media, if you
still need it. Another kind cctalk'er sent me a pair of bootable O1 discs,
one DBASEII and one WordStar.

I figure I'll go the solvent flush route, using tri-chlor, and see where
that goes. But honestly, I don't know what could be causing so many 'stuck'
keys on this thing! One would hope for (easily clear-able) contaminants,
but it might be more than that. As a previous poster noted, he felt it may
be due to the cord keeping several keys depressed during storage. That
might be worth investigating, if I can find a kb matrix map in the
(incomplete!) service docs.

As ever, my fear is that the materials won't withstand the solvent, even if
it's tri-chlor, and I'll end up washing away every hope of survival. Water
might be OK, but I'd have to grab a couple gals of distilled first.

Ultimately, the dreaded R&R is the option. Not sure if I have the
patience...

-L

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 8:27 PM, Jules Richardson <
jules.richardso...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 08/23/2015 03:28 AM, drlegendre . wrote:
>
>> Howdy gents,
>>
>> Working away on the recently acquired Osborne 1. Seems there's something
>> wrong with the KB - and if I didn't know better, I'd say it's a case of
>> shorted contacts.
>>
>> The KB connector is 24 pins, double row header like a short floppy or IDE
>> header.
>>
>> On the KB side, there are two "shorted" groups of pins. Group one is 2X
>> shortred pins, group two is 5X shorted pins.
>>
>
> I just prodded mine with a meter, and the only continuity I get is between
> pins 2 and 23 (numbered as follows, looking into the keyboard connector,
> with the cable exiting toward the right)
>
>  _
> | nc 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 nc nc |
> | nc 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 nc |==
>  -
>
> Thing is, this KB is not really built to be serviced, best as I can tell.
>>
>
> Yeah, I just opened the case on mine, and it's a pretty nasty design -
> cheap as possible :-( Wish I'd tried that keyboard on my system now so you
> knew it had problems!
>
> With such limited access, I don't see many avenues other than flushing with
>> solvent(s) and hoping for the best.
>>
>
> Yeah, I'd do that first - or maybe soapy water followed by a flush with
> distilled, then leave it for a week or so to dry. Can't hurt.
>
> If that doesn't work... break the melted plastic bits off, take the thing
> apart, clean the membrane. Reassemble and put blobs of glue where the
> melted plastic bits were. If you have a drill press, counter-sink the holes
> on the underside of the metal plate first; it'll give the glue more plastic
> to adhere to.
>
> If gluing doesn't work out... urgh. The switch bodies do seem to have a
> little lip around the edges where they rest up against the membrane, so it
> would be possible to slot metal bars down between the rows (secured at
> either end somehow to the metal 'baseplate' below) in order to keep the
> switches from falling out - but it would certainly be a bit of a project!
>
> Nasty keyboard, though! I expect mine will go the same way at some point :/
>
> cheers
>
> Jules
>
>

Somewhat OT: RIP Robert "Bob" Hall, Jr. (Jan 5th 1957 - July 28th 2015)

[drlegendre .]

Friends,

I know some of us knew Bob Hall, an amazing character, who spent the last
decade of his life crusading for the restoration of US manufacturing and
railing against the perils of the Giant in the East - among other things.

Sadly, I learned only today that Bob passed away on July 28th, 2015, due to
intractable pancreatic cancer. Our friend was a tender 61 years in age.

You can find a page, with an obit here: http://tinyurl.com/paspfax

Rest in Peace, Bob.. your 'dispatches from the front' will be missed. We
need more voices like we had known in Bob hall.

(It seems all of his content has been removed from FB and YT. Might still
remain in archive.org)

Re: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations?

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/24/2015 07:06 PM, steve shumaker wrote:



No clue - but I've found some seriously old stuff lurking there in
the past.  If anyone would know tape it ought to be these folks.  The
fact that it's still in the catalog is encouraging.  Perhaps they
archived it to different media and didn't update the link -
certainly worth an inquiry. Did your DTIC search catch  the user
manual?


I'll start by firing off an inquiry and see if they can stop laughing 
long enough to respond.


--Chuck

Re: 9-Track 1/2" Tape Drive Recommendations?

[steve shumaker]

On 8/24/2015 7:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 08/24/2015 07:06 PM, steve shumaker wrote:



No clue - but I've found some seriously old stuff lurking there in
the past.  If anyone would know tape it ought to be these folks.  The
fact that it's still in the catalog is encouraging.  Perhaps they
archived it to different media and didn't update the link -
certainly worth an inquiry. Did your DTIC search catch  the user
manual?


I'll start by firing off an inquiry and see if they can stop laughing 
long enough to respond.


--Chuck





and report back!  I'm curious to know.

steve

Re: So, what's the deal with DigiBarn?

[steve shumaker]

On 8/24/2015 3:30 PM, Ian Finder wrote:

Hey all-

I've always wondered about this.

Their website hasn't seen a proper update in years, and it looks like they
have a lot of choice hardware donated to them that they may not be
maintaining... Is it open to the public?

Are people actively volunteering there to make sure this stuff is shown
some love and not falling into disrepair? Keeping leaky batteries,
capacitors, rust at bay, and doing repairs? Imaging disks?

They have some very worthwhile examples of machines but I haven't seen much
from them as an organization in years!

I'm sure lots of people would be willing to help if they are
under-resourced.

Thanks,

- Ian

   
I run into the owner occasionally.  Between family commitments and 
significant work related travel, he's been over committed for over two 
years.  Bruce lurks here when he has time/access.


steve

RE: FYI gmane cctalk group

[dwight]

I see. Why would they do that?
Dwight

 
> From: jw...@classiccmp.org
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: FYI gmane cctalk group
> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 10:34:03 -0500
> 
> That means they are copying the list without permission.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight
> Sent: Monday, August 24, 2015 10:22 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
> Subject: RE: FYI gmane cctalk group
> 
> 
>  
> > Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 07:38:25 -0700
> > From: a...@bitsavers.org
> > To: gene...@classiccmp.org; classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> cctalk@classiccmp.org
> > Subject: FYI gmane cctalk group
> > 
> > just noticed this
> > 
> >
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.announce/23246/match=gmane+comp+hardware+vint
> age
> > 
> > From: Mailing List Manager  gmane.org>
> > Subject: New group gmane.comp.hardware.vintage
> > Newsgroups: gmane.announce
> > Date: 2015-05-19 10:57:19 GMT (13 weeks, 6 days, 3 hours and 39 minutes
> ago)
> > 
> > The newsgroup gmane.comp.hardware.vintage has been created.
> > The subject of the first message posted was
> > 
> >   Subject: Re: EPROM dumps for HP Draftmaster II 7596A
> > 
> > This newsgroup corresponds to the cctalk mailing list.
> > 
> > Description: Classic Computing Talk (non-public).
> > 
> > http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.hardware.vintage>
> > nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.hardware.vintage>
> > 
> What does " This newsgroup corresponds to the cctalk mailing
> list."mean?Dwight   =
> 
> 
  

Re: [GreenKeys] Somewhat OT: RIP Robert "Bob" Hall, Jr. (Jan 5th 1957 - July 28th 2015)

[drlegendre .]

Hey Virgil / anyone who might know & care,

I'd known the man for well over a decade - first made his acquaintance when
he became a customer of the boutique Hi-End audio outfit I used to work
for. Spent a lot of phone-time working with him, trying to get various
issues sorted out in his system. Only met in person on one occasion, when
he came to visit in St. Paul..

But that was all well over ten years back, and we've stayed in-touch -
loosely at times - ever since. A few years back, when car trouble stranded
my wife in the Chicagoland area, Bob was nice enough to "take over" and see
her through to a safe place to stay, and get her vehicle repaired. At that
time, it had been at least two or three years since we'd last spoken, and
the moment I called on him he was just "right there" to do whatever was
needed to help - and quite late at night, for that matter. I think I phoned
him at around 11-12PM.

Since those days, we'd mostly kept in touch via his dollartothegiant@gmail
dispatches - but all of that stopped, very suddenly, about two months ago.
It was around that time when I received a note from him, mentioning that he
was in hospital with end-stage pancreatic cancer. Of course, I mailed him
immediately - and he called me the next morning, but I missed it. Then we
played a round of tag' - and that was the last of him.

Really sorry to know he's gone. We need more men like him, in this great
nation of ours.

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Virgil Bierschwale 
wrote:

> I've got his stuff here at Keep America At Work.
>
> I knew he was bad, but I had NOT heard this and I'm very sorry to hear
> this.
>
> http://keepamericaatwork.com/category/bob-hall/
>
> I never had the opportunity to meet him, but we exchanged emails
> frequently and I wish I had been able to meet him.
>
> Virgil
> Keep America At Work
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 9:33 PM, drlegendre . 
> wrote:
>
>> Friends,
>>
>> I know some of us knew Bob Hall, an amazing character, who spent the last
>> decade of his life crusading for the restoration of US manufacturing and
>> railing against the perils of the Giant in the East - among other things.
>>
>> Sadly, I learned only today that Bob passed away on July 28th, 2015, due
>> to intractable pancreatic cancer. Our friend was a tender 61 years in age.
>>
>> You can find a page, with an obit here: http://tinyurl.com/paspfax
>>
>> Rest in Peace, Bob.. your 'dispatches from the front' will be missed. We
>> need more voices like we had known in Bob hall.
>>
>> (It seems all of his content has been removed from FB and YT. Might still
>> remain in archive.org)
>>
>>
>>
>> __
>> GreenKeys mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:greenk...@mailman.qth.net
>>
>> 2002-to-present greenkeys archive:
>> http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/greenkeys/
>> 1998-to-2001 
>> greenkeys archive:
>> http://mailman.qth.net/archive/greenkeys/greenkeys.html
>> Randy Guttery's 2001-to-2009 GreenKeys Search Tool:
>> http://comcents.com/tty/greenkeyssearch.html
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
>

Re: FYI gmane cctalk group

[Doug Jackson]

This about screen pretty much sums it up.

http://gmane.org/about.php

-

Free software is mainly developed on mailing lists. Mailing lists have 
many advantages over other forms of communication, but they have two 
weaknesses: It's difficult to follow discussions in a sensible way, and 
mailing list archives (when they exist) have a tendency to disappear 
over time.


Severalmailing list archives exist, but 
these are all hidden under a web interface. Reading mail that way is not 
convenient. Reading mail as if it were news is convenient.


This is what Gmane offers. Mailing lists are funneled into news groups. 
This isn't a new idea; several mail-to-news gateways exist. What's new 
with Gmane is that no messages are ever expired from the server, and the 
gateway is bidirectional. You can post to some of these mailing lists 
without being subscribed to them yourself, depending on whether the 
mailing lists allow non-subscribers to post or not.


In addition, Gmane doesspam detection 
,cross-post handling 
, has aTMDA-fueled encryption/forwarding 
service , aweb interface 
, respectsX-No-Archive 
, suppliesRSS feeds 
, usesSPF , 
gatherstraffic statistics , and has a 
real-time indexingsearch engine .


Not all mailing lists allow non-subscribers to post, and some are 
moderated. Gmane requires that users post to Gmane groups using a valid 
e-mail address, and requires a one-timeauthorization 
per group.


To read the mailing lists stored in Gmane, point your news reader 
tonews.gmane.org .


To get a new mailing list added,use the subscription form 
. Almost any mailing list can be added. 
Just includesubscription information . Mailing 
list archives can beimported into Gmane.


Discussion about the Gmane hierarchy takes place on thegmane.discuss 
newsgroup.


At present, the Gmane hierarchy is heavily dominated by computer-related 
mailing lists, which reflects the interests of the initial user base. 
However, Gmane is not meant to be a service exclusively for IT people. 
Feel free to suggest non-computer-related mailing lists.


To get in touch with the Gmane administrators, send a mail toLars Magne 
Ingebrigtsen .


Gmane has been in full operation since February 11th 2002, after a one 
month test period. And the "g" in "Gmane" is silent.



 Background

I've tried to gather some thoughts on Gmane here. It's been running now 
for almost half a year, and it's about time to summarize the experience 
somewhat.


My main reason for setting up Gmane in the first place was my annoyance 
with the concept of mailing lists. I've always preferred newsgroups -- 
they have a nice interface; they can be archived in a convenient format; 
and they can be searched (via DejaNews/Google). Mailing lists have a 
lousy interface, and if they have an archive at all, it's always hidden 
behind some web-based monstrosity. And they never allow searching.


So I started Gmane, and gathered the mailing lists I was vaguely 
interested in. Many, many other lists were requested by other users and 
added by me and the other Gmane administrators. There's now more than 
two thousand lists here. If I'm looking for discussion on any given 
topic (for instance -- buffer overflows in the libc resolver library), I 
just have my news reader display all the Gmane groups, and, more often 
than not, all the relevant mailing lists are already there, and I find 
what I'm looking for.




Makes sense to me :-)

Doug



On 25/08/2015 1:20 PM, dwight wrote:

I see. Why would they do that?
Dwight

  

From: jw...@classiccmp.org
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: FYI gmane cctalk group
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 10:34:03 -0500

That means they are copying the list without permission.

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2015 10:22 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: RE: FYI gmane cctalk group


  

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 07:38:25 -0700
From: a...@bitsavers.org
To: gene...@classiccmp.org; classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts

cctalk@classiccmp.org

Subject: FYI gmane cctalk group

just noticed this



http://article.gmane.org/gmane.announce/23246/match=gmane+comp+hardware+vint
age

From: Mailing List Manager  gmane.org>
Subject: New group gmane.comp.hardware.vintage
Newsgroups: gmane.announce
Date: 2015-05-19 10:57:19 GMT (13 weeks, 6 days, 3 hours and 39 minutes

ago)

The newsgroup gmane.comp.hardware.vintage has been crea

Re: FYI gmane cctalk group

[Eric Christopherson]

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015, Al Kossow wrote:
> just noticed this
> 
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.announce/23246/match=gmane+comp+hardware+vintage
> 
> From: Mailing List Manager  gmane.org>
> Subject: New group gmane.comp.hardware.vintage
> Newsgroups: gmane.announce
> Date: 2015-05-19 10:57:19 GMT (13 weeks, 6 days, 3 hours and 39 minutes ago)
> 
> The newsgroup gmane.comp.hardware.vintage has been created.
> The subject of the first message posted was
> 
>  Subject: Re: EPROM dumps for HP Draftmaster II 7596A
> 
> This newsgroup corresponds to the cctalk mailing list.
> 
> Description: Classic Computing Talk (non-public).
> 
> http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.hardware.vintage>
> nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.hardware.vintage>
> 

We're also on http://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&r=1&w=2 .

-- 
Eric Christopherson

Re: [GreenKeys] Somewhat OT: RIP Robert "Bob" Hall, Jr. (Jan 5th 1957 - July 28th 2015)

[Virgil Bierschwale]

I've got his stuff here at Keep America At Work.

I knew he was bad, but I had NOT heard this and I'm very sorry to hear this.

http://keepamericaatwork.com/category/bob-hall/

I never had the opportunity to meet him, but we exchanged emails frequently
and I wish I had been able to meet him.

Virgil
Keep America At Work


On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 9:33 PM, drlegendre .  wrote:

> Friends,
>
> I know some of us knew Bob Hall, an amazing character, who spent the last
> decade of his life crusading for the restoration of US manufacturing and
> railing against the perils of the Giant in the East - among other things.
>
> Sadly, I learned only today that Bob passed away on July 28th, 2015, due
> to intractable pancreatic cancer. Our friend was a tender 61 years in age.
>
> You can find a page, with an obit here: http://tinyurl.com/paspfax
>
> Rest in Peace, Bob.. your 'dispatches from the front' will be missed. We
> need more voices like we had known in Bob hall.
>
> (It seems all of his content has been removed from FB and YT. Might still
> remain in archive.org)
>
>
>
> __
> GreenKeys mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:greenk...@mailman.qth.net
>
> 2002-to-present greenkeys archive:
> http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/greenkeys/
> 1998-to-2001 greenkeys archive:
> http://mailman.qth.net/archive/greenkeys/greenkeys.html
> Randy Guttery's 2001-to-2009 GreenKeys Search Tool:
> http://comcents.com/tty/greenkeyssearch.html
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Re: [GreenKeys] Somewhat OT: RIP Robert "Bob" Hall, Jr. (Jan 5th 1957 - July ...

[COURYHOUSE]

sad  to lose a good person at a young  age
Ed#
 
 
In a message dated 8/24/2015 9:47:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
vbier...@gmail.com writes:

I've got  his stuff here at Keep America At Work.

I knew he was bad, but I had  NOT heard this and I'm very sorry to hear  
this.

http://keepamericaatwork.com/category/bob-hall/

I never  had the opportunity to meet him, but we exchanged emails frequently
and I  wish I had been able to meet him.

Virgil
Keep America At  Work


On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 9:33 PM, drlegendre .   wrote:

> Friends,
>
> I  know some of us knew Bob Hall, an amazing character, who spent the  
last
> decade of his life crusading for the restoration of US  manufacturing and
> railing against the perils of the Giant in the East  - among other things.
>
> Sadly, I learned only today that Bob  passed away on July 28th, 2015, due
> to intractable pancreatic cancer.  Our friend was a tender 61 years in 
age.
>
> You can find a page,  with an obit here: http://tinyurl.com/paspfax
>
> Rest in Peace,  Bob.. your 'dispatches from the front' will be missed. We
> need more  voices like we had known in Bob hall.
>
> (It seems all of his  content has been removed from FB and YT. Might still
> remain in  archive.org)
>
>
>
>  __
>  GreenKeys mailing list
> Home:  http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys
> Help:  http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post:  mailto:greenk...@mailman.qth.net
>
> 2002-to-present greenkeys  archive:
> http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/greenkeys/
>  1998-to-2001 greenkeys archive:
>  http://mailman.qth.net/archive/greenkeys/greenkeys.html
> Randy  Guttery's 2001-to-2009 GreenKeys Search Tool:
>  http://comcents.com/tty/greenkeyssearch.html
>
> This list hosted  by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list:  http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Side issue Bevatron PDP-8 Classic & teletype control? and great print/scan cheap

[COURYHOUSE]

 
Any Northern Calif  folk  (current or   Ex)   that might  have  been around 
  the  BEVATRON   -   Okthis  thing   had  pdp-8 computers  ( the  
classic  first model rack  mounted) and teletypes  hooked  to it
 
I am  finding very little info on it... 
 
Just  scanning  stuff on Crocker's Cracker   (the   60 incher) here tonight 
and putting together blueprints.
if  you want a  from the  store  solution  try the  hp 7612  scans and 
prints in excess of  11x17
on sale  less then 200 bucks!  I  highly  recommend the  Microsoft labs  
stitcher  program.  I have  had   some  scans  with  some  pretty crappy 
alignment and I made  one giant beauty of a blueprint.
 
The  7612  also prints  beautiful 11x17  color   prints to go in displays  
here  for the  museum.