DEC VAX parts and 11/34 System for sale
I still have a bunch of vintage computer parts I'd like to find homes for. If you are interested either in components for a DEC VAX or in a PDP 11/34 embedded system complete with card cage, please visit my website for details and contact information. http://www.hpfriedrichs.com/hpfparts/hpfparts.htm I will be posting more items when these have been sold. Regards, Pete AC7ZL
In Realtime: Saving 25,000 Manuals — August 15, 2015
http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 Apologies if this is old news... -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)
Re: In Realtime: Saving 25,000 Manuals
> From: Liam Proven > Apologies if this is old news... Is this Manuals Plus? They said at the start of the year that they were going to close, and I bought a whole bunch of stuff, but then things seemed to go quiet. Noel
Re: In Realtime: Saving 25,000 Manuals — August 15, 2015
I was twittering Jason about it yesterday. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Aug 15, 2015 7:03 AM, "Liam Proven" wrote: > http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 > > Apologies if this is old news... > > -- > Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) >
Re: Booting an IBM MP 3000 S/390 System
On 10 August 2015 at 22:39, Eric Christopherson wrote: > He corrects that in the video itself :) Indeed so. Just watched it through for a second time, actually. Great fun and I too am jealous. :-D -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)
Re: WANTED: HP 3000
Al, I shared the images with J. David Bryan. One of the tapes had a bad spot on it so, there was one file that was unrecoverable. I think he was able to recreate a complete FOS tape. My images are on a system that is currently in storage so, it is not too easy for me to get my hands on them. I also have all the original sub-system tapes. AFIRC they were also imaged. If David can't provide images and they aren't available anywhere else, I try to make them available. See ya, Steve Robertson stee...@ccvn.com On 8/15/2015 8:46 AM, Al Kossow wrote: On 8/15/15 5:35 AM, Steve Robertson wrote: Mike, I have the original 9-track system tapes (FOS), some spare NOS tapes have you imaged all of these tapes? -- Steve Robertson stee...@ccvn.com
Re: WANTED: HP 3000
On 8/15/15 5:56 AM, Steve Robertson wrote: Al, I shared the images with J. David Bryan. One of the tapes had a bad spot on it so, there was one file that was unrecoverable. Ah, good. I was hoping he got copies of them.
Re: WANTED: HP 3000
Mike, I have a complete micro/37 that I'd be willing to part with. It was last booted about 2 years ago when another list member was trying to his a system running. Is is mounted in one of the short / narrow HP racks with 3x670H HPIB drives. I think the total disk size is about 1 Gb. That seems like a ton for a system that small. I also have a HPIB 7980 front loading tape drive, that I would include in the deal. AND... I have the original 9-track system tapes (FOS), some spare NOS tapes (let me know how many you'd like), the original MPE documents on CD, and I could probably dig up some MPE paper documentation as well. I am in western NC but could be coaxed into meeting you somewhere closer (possibly southern Virginia). I'll take an offer but, be warned, I'm not giving it away. Thanks, Steve Robertson stee...@ccvn.com On 8/14/2015 10:01 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: I worked on HP 3000 systems in the late '80s, and would like to find one for my collection. A series 42 would be nice, but a series 37 or micro XE would do. Any leads? I'm already aware of the one on Epay in Florida that's been sitting at $1,725 for the past year. I'm in central PA. Mike Loewenmloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technologyhttp://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ -- Steve Robertson stee...@ccvn.com
Re: WANTED: HP 3000
On 8/15/15 5:35 AM, Steve Robertson wrote: Mike, I have the original 9-track system tapes (FOS), some spare NOS tapes have you imaged all of these tapes?
Re: In Realtime: Saving 25,000 Manuals
This is Manuals Plus. I've been in conversation with them for a lot of the year, talking about the where and when for the final closedown. This is the final closedown, and they're going to start throwing the inventory out Monday. The project I'm doing is to go onsite on Monday and Tuesday and take the unique items in their warehouse (it's estimated at 21,000 but I was being careful) and put it into boxes, and then put those boxes into a nearby storage unit while the next steps are considered/taken. I drove down to Baltimore and back yesterday (Friday), a 500 mile trip, to ensure I could show I was a real human being and going to do this.It is going to be a very busy Monday and Tuesday. On Sat, Aug 15, 2015 at 7:32 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Liam Proven > > > Apologies if this is old news... > > Is this Manuals Plus? They said at the start of the year that they were > going > to close, and I bought a whole bunch of stuff, but then things seemed to go > quiet. > > Noel >
QIC-24 data analysis
This looks like fun.. http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2015/08/qic-24-tape-data-block-format-decoding.html
Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem
On 8/14/2015 11:56 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> There is no play in the spindle at all. Certainly not 1/2 track worth. >> Can't wiggle it at all, no visible wobble, etc. > > Not necessarily play. Anyway, half a track width is just over 10 thou > and I am not sure I could notice that amount of runout by eye. Also > I have learnt by bitter experience to check everything, otherwise you > discover (far too late) that the thing that was 'obviously right and > didn't need checking' was the problem > Except that when the media is aligned to the spindle correctly, the drive performs flawlessly, including exchange with another drive. If the spindle itself were wobbling so much as to cause the other symptoms, I don't see how it could ever work right. > >> The centering cone/clamp has just one continuous spring, all the way around. > > Are you sure. The cone is in 2 parts. Normally there is a spring between them > inside the cone and a (stronger) spring between the cone and the clamp arm. > On these drives, the centering cone (i.e., that which centers the media on the spindle) is actually part of the spindle. The part that comes down onto it is a set of nylon fingers, all one piece, with a spring surrounding them. They call it the "Spindle Hub Clamp". All this latter part does is clamp the media to the spindle. The SA-800 doc makes it hard to see what is going on, but it is at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/shugart/SA8xx/50576-4_SA800_Parts_May77.pdf Page 98, parts 8 (spring), 9 (Hub Clamp assembly) and 11 the plate that screws onto the clamp (part 10) and holds it all in place. I swapped that entire assembly. Unfortunately, there is no detail on part 9. It consists of: A surrounding black plastic piece. The nylon fingers and the flat part they are attached to (all one piece) A black pastic washer A screw, washer and nylock lock nut that holds it all together. Then there is a spring above that, held in place by the hub clamp plate (part 11). As the clamp arm comes down, the nylon fingers splay apart over the centering cone part of the spindle, and finally clamp the media down on the flat part of spindle. >> And, there is no point: I did mention: I swapped those plastic >> centering cones / clamps with the other drive, and it made no difference >> to either drive. > > What exactly did you swap? The cone and internal spring? The obvious spring > on top of it and all the washers? The clamp arm itself (check for burrs round > the hole where the cone spindle goes)? The entire assembly that sits over the hole in the clamping arm. I did indeed check the hole in the clamp arm when I aligned the entire clamp assembly (transverse and up and down) to match the other drive. When I first got the drive, that was closer to the spindle that the other drive, and not really well centered. I did not swap the clamp arm itself (the part that attaches to the door, and fits into holes via pins near the back of the drive. If that is itself warped (hard to see how, it is cast, and has lots of support fillets so it isn't very bendable) or out of dimension somehow, then I probably could not fix it anyway. > > If the cone is alright then it pretty much has to be the spindle itself. Are > you > sure the spindle bearings are correctly fitted with all the parts shown in > the > service manual? > Haven't taken the spindle apart. (Page 6, parts 2 through 10). Not sure I would want to - if it is that worn somewhere, requiring changing out its bearing or the like, then for me the case is probably hopeless. > -tony > My gut feeling about this remains that something interferes with the media centering itself on the cone of the spindle before it gets clamped down. What I am really looking for is someone who had a drive with similar behavior that can say "hey, I had that too, and it was ..". JRJ
Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem
Certainly this thing is old enough. But I don't see how it would ever work if that were the case. When the media is on center, it works flawlessly, including interchange with another drive. One thing I am going to try today is to manually center the media with the AC power disconnected (not spinning), and then mount the clamp and clamp it to see if it works consistently when I do that. I think it will, and if so, then it would eliminate all of the sorts of suggestions I have seen from folks so far. On 8/14/2015 11:58 PM, dwight wrote: > It could be an indication of pot metal failure. > I had one drive that the spindle from the driven side was clearly > swelling. I replaced it from a spare parts drive. > What happens is that the metal has oxidation at grain boundaries. > It is said that it is caused by small amounts of contaminating > metals in the mostly zinc pot metal. > Aluminum has been said to be one of the problem sources. > Dwight > > >
Re: More DEC boards
Hello Paul, I sent you an email, not sure if you received it, maybe antispam? Thanks Andrea
Re: More DEC boards
no, just a lot of emails, and a list member is coming Monday with a 24 or 28 foot truck he wants to fill. On Sat, Aug 15, 2015 at 10:55 AM, shad wrote: > Hello Paul, > I sent you an email, not sure if you received it, maybe antispam? > Thanks > Andrea >
Analog to Digital Converter
I have a number of laboratory instruments that are from the 1990 time frame. They produce digital data that is the digitized signal from a detector, the data can be from 512 to 65K samples long. The ADC used in these instruments is a 16bit 100ksample/sec design. The ADC is in a 3 by 4 inch metal box with a row of pins on each long edge. I think some of them are failing because I get the full 16 bit resolution from one machine, but not the others. This was determined by taking the digital samples and sorting the values and computing the increments between the adjacent values. In some cases the output looked like 14 bit resolution and in one case 6 bit resolution. Does anyone have any experience with this ADC technology? Who was the manufacturer? (There is no id on the outside) What is inside the box? Is it a hybrid circuit? Doug
Analog to Digital Converter
I have a number of laboratory instruments that are from the 1990 time frame. They produce digital data that is the digitized signal from a detector, the data can be from 512 to 65K samples long. The ADC used in these instruments is a 16bit 100ksample/sec design. The ADC is in a 3 by 4 inch metal box with a row of pins on each long edge. I think some of them are failing because I get the full 16 bit resolution from one machine, but not the others. This was determined by taking the digital samples and sorting the values and computing the increments between the adjacent values. In some cases the output looked like 14 bit resolution and in one case 6 bit resolution. Does anyone have any experience with technology? Who was the manufacturer? (There is no id on the outside) What is inside the box? Is it a hybrid circuit? Doug
RE: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem
> Except that when the media is aligned to the spindle correctly, the > drive performs flawlessly, including exchange with another drive. If > the spindle itself were wobbling so much as to cause the other symptoms, > I don't see how it could ever work right. > On these drives, the centering cone (i.e., that which centers the media > on the spindle) is actually part of the spindle. The part that comes > down onto it is a set of nylon fingers, all one piece, with a spring > surrounding them. They call it the "Spindle Hub Clamp". All this > latter part does is clamp the media to the spindle. The SA-800 doc > makes it hard to see what is going on, but it is at In every 8" (and 5.25") drive that I've seen the spindle (the bit driven, maybe indirectly, by the motor) has a female cone on the end. There is then the clamping cone, often plastic which fits into it through the hole in the disk. That plastic part may be shown as one piece in the service manual as individual parts are not available as spares, but most of the time it's actually 2 bits with a spring inside. > Haven't taken the spindle apart. (Page 6, parts 2 through 10). Not > sure I would want to - if it is that worn somewhere, requiring changing > out its bearing or the like, then for me the case is probably hopeless. If it's not the clamping cone then it pretty much has to be the spindle. A comment about pot metal got me thinking. If the cone has swollen due to oxidation of one component of the pot metal, it may be that the plastic cone is compressed too far too early and the media slips out of alignment. I would inspect the metal part of the spindle very carefully. I would check for excessive runout of the conical section. I would look for damage (burrs, etc). Do you have mechanical measuring tools (callipers, etc)? The ball races are most likely standard parts and can be obtained. Other parts may have to be made. > My gut feeling about this remains that something interferes with the > media centering itself on the cone of the spindle before it gets clamped > down. My feeling is similar, that the clamping cone allows the media to slip about before it is finally clamped so that sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't > What I am really looking for is someone who had a drive with similar > behavior that can say "hey, I had that too, and it was ..". Firstly I think it's a long shot that somebody else will have had this and secondly even if they have had the same symptoms it might be due to a different cause. Better to actually work out what is wrong with _your_ drive (sorry, but I have never gone along with the idea of stock faults and cures [1]). [1] May be OK if you have a lot of similar units to repair, say you are a repair shop and you keep seeing the same model of TV come in. Stock faults may then let you get 90% off the bench very quickly. But they are not much help with one-off machines like we tend to get on this list -tony JRJ
Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem
I went and stared at some of my 8" drives for a bit this morning. It occurs to me that if your top guide frame is laterally "warped", the centering of the hub clamp assembly won't work. If you've got a wiggler gauge handy, you may want to see what the deviation is when the hub clamp mates with the spindle hub assembly. While you're at it, you may want to check the spindle hub itself to see if it's not out-of-round. There's a patent 3,898,814 on the Shugart clamping system that many manufacturers licensed. Perhaps it can shed some light. --Chuck
Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem
On 8/14/2015 11:56 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> There is no play in the spindle at all. Certainly not 1/2 track worth. >> Can't wiggle it at all, no visible wobble, etc. > > Not necessarily play. Anyway, half a track width is just over 10 thou > and I am not sure I could notice that amount of runout by eye. Also > I have learnt by bitter experience to check everything, otherwise you > discover (far too late) that the thing that was 'obviously right and > didn't need checking' was the problem > My experiment at manual centering, with the motor off, was not successful - no better results than the normal mounting process, possibly even a bit worse.
Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem
On 8/15/2015 11:51 AM, tony duell wrote: > > In every 8" (and 5.25") drive that I've seen the spindle (the bit driven, > maybe > indirectly, by the motor) has a female cone on the end. There is then the > clamping > cone, often plastic which fits into it through the hole in the disk. Not so on these drives. On the Shugart SA-800 series, the spindle (driven by a belt from a motor) has a MALE cone on the end, and the clamp, from above goes around it (female if you like). The part of the spindle on the media of the side of the deck looks like this: xx x x xx yy xxxxx At one point I thought, MAYBE, there was a little grouve at position "y" that I could catch a blade of an Xacto or tiny screwdriver on on the bad drive, but not the good one - but I am not at all sure of that. If that is true - if there really is a little groove there, then that would well explain the symptoms. It could get off center, and it would NOT precess. I would think that a spindle with a bearing issue would precess, so it would never work during an entire floppy test - it would always exhibit some wobble. > > That plastic part may be shown as one piece in the service manual as > individual parts > are not available as spares, but most of the time it's actually 2 bits with a > spring inside. > > I can see the entire nylon finger piece finger - it is completely exposed except for a small bit under a screw and washer. It has a bunch of fingers attached to a disk - all one nylon piece during manufacture. The fingers can spread out. The fingers have a flat part on them which then presses the media against the flat part of the spindle. They have a spring around the outside of all of the fingers for tension. Besides, as I have explained, I have switched out the entire assembly with the fingers to no avail. >> Haven't taken the spindle apart. (Page 6, parts 2 through 10). Not >> sure I would want to - if it is that worn somewhere, requiring changing >> out its bearing or the like, then for me the case is probably hopeless. > > If it's not the clamping cone then it pretty much has to be the spindle. A > comment > about pot metal got me thinking. If the cone has swollen due to oxidation of > one > component of the pot metal, it may be that the plastic cone is compressed too > far too > early and the media slips out of alignment. The plastic fingers EXPAND on this design, AROUND the spindle, not compress. > > I would inspect the metal part of the spindle very carefully. I would check > for excessive runout > of the conical section. I would look for damage (burrs, etc). Do you have > mechanical measuring > tools (callipers, etc)? No, but I could get some calipers. They aren't expensive. But if that is the problem, it is a lost cause for me to fix anyway. > > The ball races are most likely standard parts and can be obtained. Other > parts may have to > be made. > And I'd have no way to make them. And no point - it isn't like the world is short of these drives. > >> My gut feeling about this remains that something interferes with the >> media centering itself on the cone of the spindle before it gets clamped >> down. > > My feeling is similar, that the clamping cone allows the media to slip about > before it > is finally clamped so that sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't > >> What I am really looking for is someone who had a drive with similar >> behavior that can say "hey, I had that too, and it was ..". > > Firstly I think it's a long shot that somebody else will have had this and > secondly > even if they have had the same symptoms it might be due to a different cause. > Better > to actually work out what is wrong with _your_ drive (sorry, but I have never > gone along > with the idea of stock faults and cures [1]). Me neither, usually, but this one has me mystified, so I was curious of someone else had ever seen similar symptoms. > > [1] May be OK if you have a lot of similar units to repair, say you are a > repair shop and > you keep seeing the same model of TV come in. Stock faults may then let you > get 90% off > the bench very quickly. But they are not much help with one-off machines like > we tend to > get on this list > > -tony > > > JRJ >
RE: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem
> > Not so on these drives. On the Shugart SA-800 series, the spindle > (driven by a belt from a motor) has a MALE cone on the end, and the > clamp, from above goes around it (female if you like). How does that work? The disk media must fit around that male cone. Is the complete disk carried by the clamp arm or something? I need to find one of these drives to examine. Seems like an odd way to do it. The metal cone is not going to change in diameter. So the hole in the media has to just fit it, if too tight the media will be distorted, if too loose it won't centre. -tony
Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem
On 8/15/2015 11:59 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I went and stared at some of my 8" drives for a bit this morning. > > It occurs to me that if your top guide frame is laterally "warped", the > centering of the hub clamp assembly won't work. Agreed. But the darn thing is cast, with lots of fillets for support. I wonder how it would ever get warped, short of something REALLY heavy being dropped on it, or it itself being dropped from a considerable height - and there is no evidence of that. However, I thought I would test an SA 801 (jumpered as an SA 800) on the thing, so I could test the controller at double density. When I did that, something died (smelled electronically burn-y) after a few seconds of OK operation. Not sure if it was one of the tantalums or the stepper or something else, though. Anyway, I now have a drive that I can pull the clamp arm out of (the top guide frame, as you say) and try in the failing drive, to see if I can nail it down to that part of the spindle, just out of curiosity. > > If you've got a wiggler gauge handy, you may want to see what the > deviation is when the hub clamp mates with the spindle hub assembly. > While you're at it, you may want to check the spindle hub itself to see > if it's not out-of-round. Don't have a wiggler gauge, or anything to use it with. > > There's a patent 3,898,814 on the Shugart clamping system that many > manufacturers licensed. Perhaps it can shed some light. > > --Chuck > > > >
RE: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem
> Not so on these drives. On the Shugart SA-800 series, the spindle > (driven by a belt from a motor) has a MALE cone on the end, and the > clamp, from above goes around it (female if you like). I have just pulled the case on one of my HP9885s, which uses an SA801 chassis and HP electronics. The spindle clamping mechanism is as you describe. I took the cover plate off the clamp arm and looked at the (female) cone, etc. The cone is in 2 parts, with a bearing between them, the outer housing doesn't rotate in normal operation. There is also a spring ring round the outside of the nylon fingers. BUT I don't see how any of this has anything to do with centering. If the disk is pushed down onto the male spindle end (and yes, the disk guides do move with clamp arm) it will centre. So all that really affects things is the metal spinde. I suppose gross errors in how the clamp comes down could do it, but unless the clamp arm is hanging on one pivot only, or something, I don't think that's it. It virtually has to be a problem with the male cone end. I think you need to measure that carefully and compare the measurements with a good drive, look for burrs and wear. Remember that 10 thou is not much. What if, due to some problem with the spindle cone, it clamps on one side before the other? That could cause the disk to skew round and loose centering I think. -tony The part of the spindle on the media of the side of the deck looks like this: xx x x xx yy xxxxx At one point I thought, MAYBE, there was a little grouve at position "y" that I could catch a blade of an Xacto or tiny screwdriver on on the bad drive, but not the good one - but I am not at all sure of that. If that is true - if there really is a little groove there, then that would well explain the symptoms. It could get off center, and it would NOT precess. I would think that a spindle with a bearing issue would precess, so it would never work during an entire floppy test - it would always exhibit some wobble. > > That plastic part may be shown as one piece in the service manual as > individual parts > are not available as spares, but most of the time it's actually 2 bits with a > spring inside. > > I can see the entire nylon finger piece finger - it is completely exposed except for a small bit under a screw and washer. It has a bunch of fingers attached to a disk - all one nylon piece during manufacture. The fingers can spread out. The fingers have a flat part on them which then presses the media against the flat part of the spindle. They have a spring around the outside of all of the fingers for tension. Besides, as I have explained, I have switched out the entire assembly with the fingers to no avail. >> Haven't taken the spindle apart. (Page 6, parts 2 through 10). Not >> sure I would want to - if it is that worn somewhere, requiring changing >> out its bearing or the like, then for me the case is probably hopeless. > > If it's not the clamping cone then it pretty much has to be the spindle. A > comment > about pot metal got me thinking. If the cone has swollen due to oxidation of > one > component of the pot metal, it may be that the plastic cone is compressed too > far too > early and the media slips out of alignment. The plastic fingers EXPAND on this design, AROUND the spindle, not compress. > > I would inspect the metal part of the spindle very carefully. I would check > for excessive runout > of the conical section. I would look for damage (burrs, etc). Do you have > mechanical measuring > tools (callipers, etc)? No, but I could get some calipers. They aren't expensive. But if that is the problem, it is a lost cause for me to fix anyway. > > The ball races are most likely standard parts and can be obtained. Other > parts may have to > be made. > And I'd have no way to make them. And no point - it isn't like the world is short of these drives. > >> My gut feeling about this remains that something interferes with the >> media centering itself on the cone of the spindle before it gets clamped >> down. > > My feeling is similar, that the clamping cone allows the media to slip about > before it > is finally clamped so that sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't > >> What I am really looking for is someone who had a drive with similar >> behavior that can say "hey, I had that too, and it was ..". > > Firstly I think it's a long shot that somebody else will have had this and > secondly > even if they have had the same symptoms it might be due to a different cause. > Better > to actually work out what is wrong with _your_ drive (sorry, but I have never > gone along > with the idea of stock faults and cures [1]). Me neither, usually, but this one has me mystified, so I was curious of someone else had ever seen similar symptoms. > > [1] May be OK if you have a lot of similar units to repair, say yo
Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem
On 8/15/2015 12:32 PM, tony duell wrote: >> >> Not so on these drives. On the Shugart SA-800 series, the spindle >> (driven by a belt from a motor) has a MALE cone on the end, and the >> clamp, from above goes around it (female if you like). > > How does that work? The disk media must fit around that male cone. Is the > complete disk carried by the clamp arm or something? I need to find one > of these drives to examine. Yes, the clamp arm has the media guides. > > Seems like an odd way to do it. The metal cone is not going to change in > diameter. So the hole in the media has to just fit it, if too tight the media > will be distorted, if too loose it won't centre. Yup. > > -tony >
Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem
On 8/15/2015 1:35 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> Not so on these drives. On the Shugart SA-800 series, the spindle >> (driven by a belt from a motor) has a MALE cone on the end, and the >> clamp, from above goes around it (female if you like). > > I have just pulled the case on one of my HP9885s, which uses an SA801 > chassis and HP electronics. The spindle clamping mechanism is as you > describe. I took the cover plate off the clamp arm and looked at the > (female) cone, etc. > > The cone is in 2 parts, with a bearing between them, the outer housing > doesn't rotate in normal operation. There is also a spring ring round the > outside of the nylon fingers. BUT I don't see how any of this has anything > to do with centering. If the disk is pushed down onto the male spindle end > (and yes, the disk guides do move with clamp arm) it will centre. So all that > really affects things is the metal spinde. > > I suppose gross errors in how the clamp comes down could do it, but > unless the clamp arm is hanging on one pivot only, or something, I don't > think that's it. I tend to agree. The nylon piece does pivot just a little, and, after all, the clamp does come down on the inside part of the drive just a bit before the outer/front side of the drive. > > It virtually has to be a problem with the male cone end. I think you > need to measure that carefully and compare the measurements with > a good drive, look for burrs and wear. Remember that 10 thou is not > much. I'd have to buy something to measure with (not a big problem). No burrs. Already checked for that, and polished the upper conical part (above the vertical part where diameter becomes critical). That was part of my first guess that maybe the media was hanging up on the cone somewhere on the way down. Wear is certainly possible, but as I pointed out in an earlier message, the media isn't supposed to slip during use, so there ought not to be all that much wear on the spindle cone. > > What if, due to some problem with the spindle cone, it clamps on one side > before the other? That could cause the disk to skew round and loose centering > I think. Certainly one of my thoughts along the way. But, the spindle cone does not rock or anything like that. And, I switched the clamping part out with another drive - neither was affected by the swap. > > -tony >
RE: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem
> Certainly one of my thoughts along the way. But, the spindle cone does > not rock or anything like that. And, I switched the clamping part out > with another drive - neither was affected by the swap. It strikes me that there are 3 main subassemblies associated with clamping the disk : The cone; the clamping arm; and the spindle. If you have proved the first 2 are OK by using them in another drive (admittedly not a perfect test, but it suggests they are not the problem) then I would look very carefully at the spindle. Making a replacement cone is possible, but not easy, given the accuracy needed. It appears that the spindle in my drive is in 2 parts, the cone is pressed onto the end of a metal spindle. I think if I had to make it, I would make the spindle rod first, rough out the blank for the cone, leaving it well over size then press the blank for the cone onto the end, hold the spindle in a collet (a 3 jaw chuck is nowhere near accurate enough) and then turn the cone itself. -tony
Free for Shipping
I have the following items that I want to get rid of. All are quantity one, except the Poqets. They are free for shipping cost from Chicago (ZIP 60659). I prefer to ship in the US, but will consider shipping internationally. Contact me directly at r_a_feld...@hotmail.com if you are interested in any of the items. Bob Irwin Accutrak A250EP-05 external parallel port tape drive HP Travan T1000e external parallel port tape drive Microsolutions Backpack 800TD Model 143010 external parallel port tape drive Archive 11250Q internal tape drive Mitsumi CD-ROM Drive 16-bit PC interface cardDauphin keyboard Compaq keyboard 2680KB (from a large 386 semi-portable) Zenith Number pad ZA-3034-NP Compaq LTE Lite 25 laptop w/power brick. Backlight bad, SRAM battery bad. Never had a hard drive. Toshiba external 3.5” floppy ZA1115 Dual internal PCMCIA card reader w/EISA PC adapter card (for Win95 and earlier) 2 broken Poqet PQ-161 portables. One has a US-made motherboard and might be a “prototype”. Has NASA sticker on it. Both have broken screens, dinged cases and a few missing keys. One shows some reaction when turned on.
Re: WANTED: HP 3000
Mike - this would be a good complete system for you Mike and good it has tapes. that may have the little cartridge drive in it too but beware the cartridge drives they seem to all have gummy capstans... I ruined a fos tape put it in... got error... pulled it out and looked like it was slimed with the 'black oil' like in x files! there is a work around for this though using some glue and rings on the capstan roller after you scrape the goo off.having the large tape drive is better anyway. like this unit has. Our aim here at SMECC is to get data off our old tapes fro the company days and also our bulletin board system we wrote that had 100 separate boards, email, voting and poll system multi user chat we let other 3000 system managers in the 80s use... it was really something in the pre-internet days. Mike - there should also be a full file of all the hp-3000 stuff that Marlys Nelson developed I always thought it would be fun to finally get a series 68 or 70 but... yikes the power bill would hit you and the coolingYikes! for the same reason we want a series II or III or CX for the museums display but to keep it under power 24/7 with a string of drives costs $$$ and especially when you consider the air conditioning ! I have a 37 cpu and a 50 meg drive but of course need recon fig it which means cold load tape as the other drives in the string are missing I can not it past the point of disavowing the other drives that do not exist.Fun time here with the manuals etc... I have not had my hands on A WORKING 3000 for over 22 years I think. A lot comes back but there are some head scratching still going on! OK have the cart tape drive with goo capstan and have reel to reel tape drive that when at initial power-up it just spins the reels. What do we need? spare cpu more little disk drives 50 meg will nothold the store set from 1986 Known good reel to reel hpib tape drives 1600 bpi ok as that is what our store set is in and any of the other reel to reel tape distributions contributions and found stuff was. I will keep an eyen out for east coast stuff for you and appreciate if you keep an eye out on west coast stuff for us! pretty fun with drop box we can share programs without having to ship tapes to each other! Ed Sharpe archaist for SMECC _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 8/15/2015 6:36:21 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, stee...@ccvn.com writes: Mike, I have a complete micro/37 that I'd be willing to part with. It was last booted about 2 years ago when another list member was trying to his a system running. Is is mounted in one of the short / narrow HP racks with 3x670H HPIB drives. I think the total disk size is about 1 Gb. That seems like a ton for a system that small. I also have a HPIB 7980 front loading tape drive, that I would include in the deal. AND... I have the original 9-track system tapes (FOS), some spare NOS tapes (let me know how many you'd like), the original MPE documents on CD, and I could probably dig up some MPE paper documentation as well. I am in western NC but could be coaxed into meeting you somewhere closer (possibly southern Virginia). I'll take an offer but, be warned, I'm not giving it away. Thanks, Steve Robertson stee...@ccvn.com On 8/14/2015 10:01 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > I worked on HP 3000 systems in the late '80s, and would like to find > one for my collection. A series 42 would be nice, but a series 37 or > micro XE would do. Any leads? I'm already aware of the one on Epay in > Florida that's been sitting at $1,725 for the past year. > > I'm in central PA. > > > Mike Loewenmloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > -- Steve Robertson stee...@ccvn.com
Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem
On 8/15/2015 1:55 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> Certainly one of my thoughts along the way. But, the spindle cone does >> not rock or anything like that. And, I switched the clamping part out >> with another drive - neither was affected by the swap. > > It strikes me that there are 3 main subassemblies associated with clamping > the disk : > The cone; the clamping arm; and the spindle. If you have proved the first 2 > are OK by > using them in another drive (admittedly not a perfect test, but it suggests > they are not > the problem) then I would look very carefully at the spindle. > > Making a replacement cone is possible, but not easy, given the accuracy > needed. It > appears that the spindle in my drive is in 2 parts, the cone is pressed onto > the end of > a metal spindle. I think if I had to make it, I would make the spindle rod > first, rough out > the blank for the cone, leaving it well over size then press the blank for > the cone onto > the end, hold the spindle in a collet (a 3 jaw chuck is nowhere near accurate > enough) > and then turn the cone itself. > > -tony > I think if I had to make it, I'd just find another drive. ;) To make matters worse, that test with the first SA 801 managed to smoke the 24V power supply on this system, so now I have to pull it all apart, and pull out the regulator transistor which is mounted from the reverse side through to the board and soldered on the top side of the board. (possibly 3 of them, if that transistor isn't obviously the problem). A royal pain in the arse. So, there won't be any progress for quite a while. Maybe months. Sigh.
Clearpoint DCME/Q4E configuration
Hi, does anyone know anything about the configuration of these boards? (The document on BitSavers only covers the Q4B; the jumper configuration on the Q4E is totally different.) They are 4MB quad QBUS memory cards; PMI capable, I'm pretty sure. I have two of them, one of which came out of an 11/84 (I never saw it in the machine, though), and is so probably configured to run PMI. The thing is that I stupidly mixed it in with the other one, and now I don't know which one is which - and they are jumpered differently. It doesn't have to be full (or any) documentation; if someone had one they _knew_ was jumpered for, say, PMI operation, I could copy their jumper setup (or see if one of mine already had the same). If not, I'm going to start in on drawing a picture of all the jumpers, and see what QBUS/PMI pins they are all connected to - looking at the card, there's a big row of jumpers next to the pins the PMI is on, and the jumpers are all 'on' on one card, and all 'off' on the other, so I suspect the one card is jumpered for PMI operation, and the other, not. So, even if there no documentation extant at all, we should be able to more of less figure out what many of the jumpers do, and start making use of these cards. But any help/info would be gratefully received! Noel
Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem
On 08/14/2015 02:58 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: The way most of the old 8" floppies work is they have a cylinder with an ID that matches the ID of the floppy hole. The floppy sits against the face of the cylinder, and a plastic, springy cone is pressed into the cylinder by a bearing and spring on the loading arm. This arm usually also lifts the head off the media when in the open position. So, the first thing to check is if the plastic springy thing still has all its fingers. If fingers have broken off, the result is obvious. If all the fingers are still there, check for smooth sliding into the cylinder. If the fingers have gotten bent or rough, the clamp may not always seat reliably against the hub. Finally, the spring or bearing may have a failure, not driving the clamp into the spindle. Almost certainly, careful examination of these parts will reveal the problem. Jon
Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem
On 8/15/2015 8:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 08/14/2015 02:58 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: No, I didn't write any of what was quoted. ;) If one is going to remove the entire message quoted, then it probably makes sense to delete the "wrote" line as well. ;) > > The way most of the old 8" floppies work is they have a cylinder with an > ID that matches the ID of the floppy hole. The floppy sits against the > face of the cylinder, and a plastic, springy cone is pressed into the > cylinder by a bearing and spring on the loading arm. This arm usually > also lifts the head off the media when in the open position. > As Tony discovered after checking one of his own SA-800 series drives, that is not how the SA-800 series works. In these drives, the spindle is NOT a cylinder. The spindle is a CONE on top of a flat part (all one machined piece), then a shaft through the deck, to the pulley on the other side. The media sits on the flat part , just below the cone, and the plastic springy CYLINDER (more or less), gets pressed OVER the cone and on top of the media over the flat part. > So, the first thing to check is if the plastic springy thing still has > all its fingers. If fingers have broken off, the result is obvious. If > all the fingers are still there, check for smooth sliding into the > cylinder. If the fingers have gotten bent or rough, the clamp may not > always seat reliably against the hub. > Had you read the whole thread, you would have read that I had already examined the "plastic springy thing" (aka, the hub clamp), and found it to be healthy, and HAD ALREADY SWITCHED IT WITH ANOTHER hub clamp THAT WAS on a working drive with no change to either drive. > Finally, the spring or bearing may have a failure, not driving the clamp > into the spindle. > The hub clamp is engaging onto the spindle just fine, thank you very much. There is no bearing of any real import in the hub clamp, really, just a screw through (perhaps) a little straight bearing. The spring in the hub clamp is obviously fine (and, again, it had been part of the assembly I switched with another drive). > Almost certainly, careful examination of these parts will reveal the > problem. No, careful examination most certainly did NOT reveal the problem. At this point, the best guess is either that the clamp arm is out of true (unlikely), a grove that cuts into the cone at its bottom, allowing the media to shift, or a spindle problem (bearing, not the correct shape any more, etc. etc.). > > Jon > JRJ
Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem
On 8/15/2015 3:13 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > To make matters worse, that test with the first SA 801 managed to smoke > the 24V power supply on this system, so now I have to pull it all apart, > and pull out the regulator transistor which is mounted from the reverse > side through to the board and soldered on the top side of the board. > (possibly 3 of them, if that transistor isn't obviously the problem). A > royal pain in the arse. > > So, there won't be any progress for quite a while. Maybe months. > > Sigh. > > Got the power supply series pass transistor out from the backside without all *that* much difficulty. Soldering irons with temperature sensors are "the bomb", though I may have been able to manage it with the same 45W de-soldering iron with built-in bulb I used to clean out the holes. The power supply was definitely a victim of over-current: the series pass transistor is blown open (2N3055, fortunately and oddly, available from the local Radio Shack), and 4 overheated resistors, one of which is in series with the output - that one is actually cracked. I have a spare of the same resistance and probably greater wattage as that one that I can pull from a different dead/unused power supply. The other resistors are all ordinary 1/2 W. The transistor driving the series pass transistor seems fine based on a simple ohmmeter test. So sometime tomorrow or so, I ought to be able to fix it. (It fooled me for a little while to - even with an open series pass transistor, there is still 24V output - it only dropped out (to about 2V) when the head loaded on a drive.) I am still not 100% sure if I shorted something while I was testing - the test drive was placed on top of the system, or I did some other silly thing with the jumpers such that two steppers ended up active at the same time (I don't think so), or if the SA-801 is just bad. I'll have to rig up a test where I power the 24V to the SA-801 from a current limited bench supply I have before I try it again. JRJ
Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem
On 08/15/2015 08:55 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: On 8/15/2015 8:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote: On 08/14/2015 02:58 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: No, I didn't write any of what was quoted. ;) If one is going to remove the entire message quoted, then it probably makes sense to delete the "wrote" line as well. ;) Yes, I should have - sorry for the fumble. Jon
RE: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem
Sorry about the error in which side has the cone and which side has the cylinder. I don't have a 800 here in front of me to look at. It still doesn't make any difference if the moving arm is a little off. The piece that is mounted on the arm is designed to float on the spring. It is still the spindle that aligns the disk. The piece on the arm would have to be really out of line to cause the disk to not seat fully on the spindle. Dwight
Re: Shugart 800-8 media centering problem
On 08/15/2015 09:49 PM, dwight wrote: Sorry about the error in which side has the cone and which side has the cylinder. I don't have a 800 here in front of me to look at. It still doesn't make any difference if the moving arm is a little off. The piece that is mounted on the arm is designed to float on the spring. It is still the spindle that aligns the disk. The piece on the arm would have to be really out of line to cause the disk to not seat fully on the spindle. That's the conclusion I came to--for a way to see how the whole mechanism works, see Shugart's patent 3,898,814 illustrations. I believe that the earlier Micropolis 5.25" floppy drives worked the same way. I recall that when they first came out, they'd mangle the hub area of a floppy because the spindle motor often had been turned off by the host. Eventually, the design was modified so that the motor spun up as the drive door closed, which solved the problem. Before that, Dysan had experimented with putting a reinforcing ring on their floppies. By the time high-density drives came out, the problem had been solved so there was no need to reinforce the HD floppy hub area. --Chuck
Re: docs or software for Quay 900 (uses Quay 90F/MPS board)
In July 2014 I mentioned that I did some reverse-engineering of a Quay 900 computer system, based on the Quay 90F/MPS single-board Z80 computer and two CDC/MPI 9406 double-sided 8-inch floppy drives. Back then I wrote a simple monitor ROM and a floppy disk formatter program, but at the time I didn't have any double-sided 8-inch media on hand, so the formatter was written for single-sided use only. I just updated it for double-sided use and put the updated source code at: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/quay/quay900/floppy_formatter/ I still haven't tracked down any documentation on the -022 variant (full P/N 77618022) of the 9406 drive. The service manual on Bitsavers lists that variant in the table documenting mechanical hardware of variants, but it does not list the PWA (circuit board) p/n 77615454 at all. This variant seems to have a Shugart-compatible pinout, perhaps what is known as a "9406-3", while all of the variants in the service manual do not have a Shugart-compatible pinout. I don't have the time or energy to reverse-engineeer the PWA. A mystery has arisen in that I tried to autodetect double-sided media, since most Shugart-compatible 8-inch double-sided drives will assert the TWOSIDED/ signal on pin 14 if they detect a two-sided medium, based on which index sensor is active. The uPD765/8272 will provide an indication of that after seek-class commands in ST3, but I found that the bit is always reading as zero regardless of whether I use a single- or double-sided disk. Inspecting the signal on pin 14 reveals very unexpected behavior. Pin 14 is always either unasserted, or toggling at about 976 Hz. It does seem correlated with whether I have a double-side disk inserted, except that it does that regardless of whether a drive is selected. If I put a single-sided disk in one drive, and a double-sided in the other, pin 14 toggles all the time. This really makes me wonder just what this particular 9406 variant is trying to do with pin 14.
