[Simh] [HECnet] Announcing PDP-11 Multi-Precision Arithmetic Package V0.9 (Preliminary Version) - FORTRAN 77 Callable

[Jerome H. Fine]

About 10 years ago, I was using an algorithm which required more than
15 digits of precision.  I wrote some PDP-11 assembler code which
could handle unsigned values up to 2^512 (just under 10^160) plus
fractional numbers with 1024 bits that had a precision on the right hand
side of the decimal point equal to the integer portion - 512 bits for each.
Actually, there were three levels of precision: 128 bits, 256 bits and the
maximum at 512 bits.  The FORTRAN 77 integer symbols were LU...,
MU... and NU... while the corresponding integer / fractional symbols
were LX..., MX... and NX..., all allocated as CHARACTER *n variables.

These subroutines are designed to be used under FORTRAN 77, so any
PDP-11 operating system (such as RT-11 and RSX-11) can easily make
use of them.  While these routines include ADD, SUBTRACT and
MULTIPLY, DIVISION is not available, although that is easily remedied
via a FORTRAN 77 subroutine which arrives at the result via the standard
approximation algorithm.  Also available are ENCODE and DECODE
routines to convert between internal binary and external decimal values.
In addition, there are routines to convert back and forth between all six
sizes of variables and DOUBLE  PRECISION floating point or REAL *8
variables.

Of late, I realized that a signed variable aspect is required, so I have 
begun

to consider what is needed.  ALSO, because I so often run the PDP-11
code under the Ersatz-11 emulator, I will consider supporting the use of
six additional PDP-11 instructions (for each ONLY one combination of
registers will be used as operands - Ersatz-11 supports a DLL):
UMUL16  -  unsigned multiple two 16 bit variables
MUL32 - signed multiple two 32 bit variables
UMUL32  -  unsigned multiple two 32 bit variables
UDIV16   -  unsigned divide a 32 bit variable by a 16 bit variable
DIV32  -  signed divide a 64 bit variable by a 32 bit variable
UDIV32   -  unsigned divide a 64 bit variable by a 32 bit variable
the UMUL16 and UMUL32 instructions being especially important to
perform multi-precision MULTIPLY.  I will also consider the possibility
of a single PDP-11 instruction to perform multi-precision arithmetic of
values contained in memory using that ability of the Ersatz-11 emulator
to LOAD a user written DLL, namely to convert many of the PDP-11
multi-precision assembler subroutines to a single PDP-11 instruction
which would then be executed using x86 instructions at a much higher
speed, sort of like a CIS for multi-precision variables.  In that case,
much larger sized variables could easily be supported due to the much
higher speed of execution.  In addition, the (approximately) 16KB
of subroutine instruction / data memory within the emulated PDP-11
could be substantially reduced.

If there is sufficient interest and support, complete algorithms might be
implemented which could directly make use of the x86's huge GB
memory to solve particular problems - sort of like a SLAR auxiliary
processor CPU (which for example performed an FFT on a KB
sized array in virtual memory) implemented in software rather than
hardware.

I hope that some interest is expressed.  Commercial inquiries for a
specific algorithm would obviously receive priority, but hobby users
are expressly encouraged to express all of their needs as well.

Jerome Fine

[RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Alexandre Souza]

   Some years ago, I wrote about a clone of the Beeprog (made by Elnec) I 
bought here locally in Brazil.


   Now, seems chinese are cloning the Beeprog PLUS (!!!)

   I got a Beeprog+ in the used market here in Brazil. Asked for Elnec 
warranty, since the programmer was manufactured in (month)11(year)2012. It 
all went well up to the serial number.


   It was made past the stop manufacture date. It stopped manufacturing in 
07/2012.


   Seems I got another hot potato on my hand :'(

   Pay atention on that!

---
Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique)
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Chuck Guzis]

On 06/23/2015 07:57 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote:


Some years ago, I wrote about a clone of the Beeprog (made by Elnec)
I bought here locally in Brazil.

Now, seems chinese are cloning the Beeprog PLUS (!!!)

I got a Beeprog+ in the used market here in Brazil. Asked for Elnec
warranty, since the programmer was manufactured in (month)11(year)2012.
It all went well up to the serial number.

It was made past the stop manufacture date. It stopped manufacturing
in 07/2012.

Seems I got another hot potato on my hand :'(

Pay atention on that!


I can understand Elnec's distress over the cloning of their product, but 
they did themselves no favor by taking the approach described here:


"...The manufacturer of the fake BeeProgs stole our logo and 
intellectual property by manufacturing fake copies of BeeProg 
programmer. This "product" uses also our software and users of this fake 
BeeProg are asking for our free technical support. Although the copy of 
the BeeProg programmer is done well, the manufactures of the fake 
BeeProg overlooked few details. Result is, the fake BeeProg unit differs 
from the original, visible for the software. We've used one of these 
differences - it is not a serial number - and our software could detect 
this fake hardware. If PG4UW software detects a fake hardware, it shows 
message "Fake programmer unit detected!" and programmer will no longer work.


If you're facing such situation, contact please the vendor, where from 
you bought the programmer, for full credit return. Or you can take this 
vendor to court for selling a fake products. We regret, we could not 
provide any assistance in this case..."


In the USA, they would probably end up as the target of legal action, 
since refusing to do the update is legitimate, but disabling the device 
is a no-no.  It amounts basically to theft of a product from the 
(unaware) owner--sort of an extra-judicial vigilante killing.


This reminds me of early failed floppy-copy-protection schemes.

Fortunately, there are solutions to restore functionality to the clone 
Beeprog.  I do not know if the same obtains for the clone Plus.


--Chuck

Megaprocessor - built from individual transistors

[Antonio Carlini]

.Apologies if this has already been posted

There seems to be someone building a processor from individual transistors:

http://www.megaprocessor.com/index.html

Estimated size: quite big!

Antonio

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-06-23 17:22, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 06/23/2015 07:57 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote:


Some years ago, I wrote about a clone of the Beeprog (made by Elnec)
I bought here locally in Brazil.

Now, seems chinese are cloning the Beeprog PLUS (!!!)

I got a Beeprog+ in the used market here in Brazil. Asked for Elnec
warranty, since the programmer was manufactured in (month)11(year)2012.
It all went well up to the serial number.

It was made past the stop manufacture date. It stopped manufacturing
in 07/2012.

Seems I got another hot potato on my hand :'(

Pay atention on that!


I can understand Elnec's distress over the cloning of their product, but
they did themselves no favor by taking the approach described here:

"...The manufacturer of the fake BeeProgs stole our logo and
intellectual property by manufacturing fake copies of BeeProg
programmer. This "product" uses also our software and users of this fake
BeeProg are asking for our free technical support. Although the copy of
the BeeProg programmer is done well, the manufactures of the fake
BeeProg overlooked few details. Result is, the fake BeeProg unit differs
from the original, visible for the software. We've used one of these
differences - it is not a serial number - and our software could detect
this fake hardware. If PG4UW software detects a fake hardware, it shows
message "Fake programmer unit detected!" and programmer will no longer
work.

If you're facing such situation, contact please the vendor, where from
you bought the programmer, for full credit return. Or you can take this
vendor to court for selling a fake products. We regret, we could not
provide any assistance in this case..."

In the USA, they would probably end up as the target of legal action,
since refusing to do the update is legitimate, but disabling the device
is a no-no.  It amounts basically to theft of a product from the
(unaware) owner--sort of an extra-judicial vigilante killing.


I doubt there any legal problems with their course of action. They are 
not obliged to ensure that their software works correctly on a pirate 
copy of their hardware.
If they add some additional checks, and they trap out on a clone, I 
doubt that could be considered illegal. They do not try to destroy your 
device. Their software just refuse to run. And I can't see it other than 
they are in their right to do that. Talk with the manufacturer of the 
clone for a software update from them instead.


Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

Re: organizing a trip to Cuba

[william degnan]

I don't know, but there could be some WOW stuff there.  I have to admit,
the day I heard Barak Obama said the US was going to free up restrictions
with Cuba I thought about the carsand the COMPUTERS!...UNIVAC?  IBM
701?  Anything could be there.

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 6:46 AM, Paul Birkel  wrote:

> I wonder to what Soviet equipment they would have upgraded?
>
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 5:06 PM, william degnan 
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> http://millennialmainframer.com/2014/12/ibm-still-waiting-cuba-pay-mainframes/
> >
> > Who's up for it?
> >
> > B
> >
>

Re: organizing a trip to Cuba

[Paul Birkel]

I wonder to what Soviet equipment they would have upgraded?

On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 5:06 PM, william degnan 
wrote:

>
> http://millennialmainframer.com/2014/12/ibm-still-waiting-cuba-pay-mainframes/
>
> Who's up for it?
>
> B
>

Re: organizing a trip to Cuba

[COURYHOUSE]

whenever I see video from there is to  full of  50scars! Neat! Ed#
 
 
In a message dated 6/23/2015 4:24:37 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
billdeg...@gmail.com writes:

I don't  know, but there could be some WOW stuff there.  I have to admit,
the  day I heard Barak Obama said the US was going to free up restrictions
with  Cuba I thought about the carsand the COMPUTERS!...UNIVAC?   IBM
701?  Anything could be there.

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 6:46  AM, Paul Birkel  wrote:

> I wonder to what  Soviet equipment they would have upgraded?
>
> On Mon, Jun 22,  2015 at 5:06 PM, william degnan 
>  wrote:
>
> >
> >
>  
http://millennialmainframer.com/2014/12/ibm-still-waiting-cuba-pay-mainframes/
>  >
> > Who's up for it?
> >
> > B
>  >
>

Re: organizing a trip to Cuba

[Jonathan Katz]

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Paul Birkel  wrote:
> I wonder to what Soviet equipment they would have upgraded?
>
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 5:06 PM, william degnan 
>> http://millennialmainframer.com/2014/12/ibm-still-waiting-cuba-pay-mainframes/

I wonder what kind of intelligence the Soviets gained from the ex-IBM
mainframes there. At that point in time a lot of the US defense
(NORAD) was run off of the SAGE setup, which must have had some 650s
as a component, right?

Strange DEC PC05 paper tape reader: doc for M705 needed

[Jörg Hoppe]

Hi all,

I could acquire *four* rotten PC05 Papertape Reader/Punches for PDP-11.
I'm now restoring them.

One of these is strange:
Normally, the feed hole (between data hole 3 and 4) is used to clock in 
bits from the data holes.
But this very special PC05 does not have a phototransistor for the feed 
hole, so the data clock signal must be generated by the stepper motor 
driver.
Maybe it's a very old model: the READER CONTROL module is M705, not the 
usual M7050. And there's no doc for it.


Does anybody has a FPMS with schematics for the M705 modul? Perhaps as 
part of some PDP-8 doc?


Thanks,
Joerg

Re: Strange DEC PC05 paper tape reader: doc for M705 needed

[Ethan Dicks]

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Jörg Hoppe  wrote:
> Does anybody has a FPMS with schematics for the M705 modul? Perhaps as part
> of some PDP-8 doc?

The M705 is the standard part in the PC8L (along with the M710 and M715).

Vince Slyngstad has some modern schematics here:

http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/Mxxx/M705/
http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/Mxxx/M7050/
http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/Mxxx/M710/
http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/Mxxx/M715/

-ethan

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Alexandre Souza]

Fortunately, there are solutions to restore functionality to the clone
Beeprog.  I do not know if the same obtains for the clone Plus.


   Unfortunately I wasn't able - yet - to find online a working solution. 
All of them are crap, just deosn't work. 

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Alexandre Souza]

I doubt there any legal problems with their course of action. They are
not obliged to ensure that their software works correctly on a pirate copy 
of their hardware.
If they add some additional checks, and they trap out on a clone, I doubt 
that could be considered illegal. They do not try to destroy your device. 
Their software just refuse to run. And I can't see it other than they are 
in their right to do that. Talk with the manufacturer of the clone for a 
software update from them instead.


   If you use a software newer than 2.62, it bricks your clone device. 
Period. 

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-06-23 17:59, Alexandre Souza wrote:



I doubt there any legal problems with their course of action. They are
not obliged to ensure that their software works correctly on a pirate
copy of their hardware.
If they add some additional checks, and they trap out on a clone, I
doubt that could be considered illegal. They do not try to destroy
your device. Their software just refuse to run. And I can't see it
other than they are in their right to do that. Talk with the
manufacturer of the clone for a software update from them instead.


If you use a software newer than 2.62, it bricks your clone device.
Period.


Yes. Ask the manufacturer of the device to fix it. Do you really expect 
that someone who have nothing to do with the device has any 
responsibility here? You (or whoever) install software that was not 
intended for the device on it anyway, and then you blame the maker of 
that software.


Do you also try to install OS-X on a DELL laptop, and claim that it's 
Apples fault that your DELL machine don't work? (God knows what 
interesting things might happen if you actually try this...)


Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Paul Koning]

> On Jun 23, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Johnny Billquist  wrote:
> 
> On 2015-06-23 17:59, Alexandre Souza wrote:
>> 
>>> I doubt there any legal problems with their course of action. They are
>>> not obliged to ensure that their software works correctly on a pirate
>>> copy of their hardware.
>>> If they add some additional checks, and they trap out on a clone, I
>>> doubt that could be considered illegal. They do not try to destroy
>>> your device. Their software just refuse to run. And I can't see it
>>> other than they are in their right to do that. Talk with the
>>> manufacturer of the clone for a software update from them instead.
>> 
>>If you use a software newer than 2.62, it bricks your clone device.
>> Period.
> 
> Yes. Ask the manufacturer of the device to fix it. Do you really expect that 
> someone who have nothing to do with the device has any responsibility here? 
> You (or whoever) install software that was not intended for the device on it 
> anyway, and then you blame the maker of that software.

It depends.  If the failure is an accidental side effect of a failed attempt to 
talk to the device, that’s excusable.  If the code goes out of its way to 
disable the device, it is not.  It’s a bit like bringing your Ford to a Chevy 
garage.  A result of “I can’t fix that” is fine.  Having the technicians pull 
out the spark plugs and say “ok, here is your car back” is not.

> 
> Do you also try to install OS-X on a DELL laptop, and claim that it's Apples 
> fault that your DELL machine don't work? (God knows what interesting things 
> might happen if you actually try this...)

Most likely it will detect the wrong hardware and simply say “not supported” 
and stop.  But it won’t wipe the device BIOS in retaliation.

paul

Re: What are the differences between the DEC RP11-C and RP11-E controllers?

[P Gebhardt]

Mike, Charles and the two Pauls,
thanks very much for your feedback on this!

The remaining point now is that they are practically impossible to find anymore 
these days, but that's different topic...

Thanks again,
Pierre


 
--- 
Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de


>
> Von: Paul Anderson 
>An: P Gebhardt ; General Discussion: On-Topic and 
>Off-Topic Posts  
>Gesendet: 22:08 Montag, 22.Juni 2015
>Betreff: Re: What are the differences between the DEC RP11-C and RP11-E 
>controllers?
> 
>
>
>The RP11-E is a newer, but about same size, than the RP11-C. I don't remember 
>the differences, but i went to Chicago and was trained on both in the late 
>70's.
>
>
>I have a few cabinets of documentation to sort through and I might have some 
>in there.  Al, do you want to scan it if you don't have it and I find it?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 3:24 PM, P Gebhardt  wrote:
>
>Hi list,
>>
>>the subject sais it all: While seeking for information on the RP11-C on the 
>>web (I saved a RP03 from being scrapped 3 years ago), I came across a hint, 
>>that there was also a RP11-E controller. At least using google, there is 
>>practically not a single information/document on the RP11-E other than its 
>>existence in the past. Is the difference maybe just a different input voltage 
>>specification (110V vs. 220V)?
>>
>>
>>Who knows anything on the difference between the C- and the E-type, Google 
>>doesn't? :)
>>I'd be happy on any hints.
>>
>>Kind regards,
>>Pierre
>>
>>
>>---
>>Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: 
>>http://www.digitalheritage.de
>>
>
>
>

Re: Megaprocessor - built from individual transistors

[Phil Budne]

If I were going thru the trouble, I'd want build a TX-0 clone!

RE: organizing a trip to Cuba

[Michael Holley]

I bought the January 1975 Popular Electronics (Altair Computer issue) at the US 
Navy Exchange in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.  

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mitscher_DDG35_Cuba_Jan_1975.jpg

Michael Holley

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian S. King
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 5:59 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: organizing a trip to Cuba

ROAD TRIP!

On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 2:06 PM, william degnan 
wrote:

>
> http://millennialmainframer.com/2014/12/ibm-still-waiting-cuba-pay-mai
> nframes/
>
> Who's up for it?
>
> B
>



--
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School 


Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal  Value 
Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-06-23 18:10, Paul Koning wrote:



On Jun 23, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Johnny Billquist  wrote:

On 2015-06-23 17:59, Alexandre Souza wrote:



I doubt there any legal problems with their course of action. They are
not obliged to ensure that their software works correctly on a pirate
copy of their hardware.
If they add some additional checks, and they trap out on a clone, I
doubt that could be considered illegal. They do not try to destroy
your device. Their software just refuse to run. And I can't see it
other than they are in their right to do that. Talk with the
manufacturer of the clone for a software update from them instead.


If you use a software newer than 2.62, it bricks your clone device.
Period.


Yes. Ask the manufacturer of the device to fix it. Do you really expect that 
someone who have nothing to do with the device has any responsibility here? You 
(or whoever) install software that was not intended for the device on it 
anyway, and then you blame the maker of that software.


It depends.  If the failure is an accidental side effect of a failed attempt to 
talk to the device, that’s excusable.  If the code goes out of its way to 
disable the device, it is not.  It’s a bit like bringing your Ford to a Chevy 
garage.  A result of “I can’t fix that” is fine.  Having the technicians pull 
out the spark plugs and say “ok, here is your car back” is not.


But unless I misunderstood things, the software merely does a check if 
the hardware looks sane, and if not it displays a message saying that 
this is the wrong hardware, and it refuses to continue running.



Do you also try to install OS-X on a DELL laptop, and claim that it's Apples 
fault that your DELL machine don't work? (God knows what interesting things 
might happen if you actually try this...)


Most likely it will detect the wrong hardware and simply say “not supported” 
and stop.  But it won’t wipe the device BIOS in retaliation.


What if it accidentally do write something to some NVR just by the 
process of trying to detect if the hardware makes sense? (We had that 
problem with NetBSD on VAX 4000 machines for many years, where it tried 
to probe for some hardware which on that specific machine actually was 
some NVRAM with parameters that NetBSD smashed.)
And I would also hope it would just display a message, and then refuse 
to continue.


Where is the difference?

Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

RE: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Dave G4UGM]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
> Koning
> Sent: 23 June 2015 17:10
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.
> 
> 
> > On Jun 23, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Johnny Billquist  wrote:
> >
> > On 2015-06-23 17:59, Alexandre Souza wrote:
> >>
> >>> I doubt there any legal problems with their course of action. They
> >>> are not obliged to ensure that their software works correctly on a
> >>> pirate copy of their hardware.
> >>> If they add some additional checks, and they trap out on a clone, I
> >>> doubt that could be considered illegal. They do not try to destroy
> >>> your device. Their software just refuse to run. And I can't see it
> >>> other than they are in their right to do that. Talk with the
> >>> manufacturer of the clone for a software update from them instead.
> >>
> >>If you use a software newer than 2.62, it bricks your clone device.
> >> Period.
> >
> > Yes. Ask the manufacturer of the device to fix it. Do you really expect that
> someone who have nothing to do with the device has any responsibility
> here? You (or whoever) install software that was not intended for the device
> on it anyway, and then you blame the maker of that software.

They have deliberately damaged it. If using software you don't own is THEFT as 
the various copyright organizations want us to believe then this is Criminal 
Damage and Vandalism.
This backfired badly on FTDI 

> 
> It depends.  If the failure is an accidental side effect of a failed attempt 
> to talk
> to the device, that’s excusable.  If the code goes out of its way to disable 
> the
> device, it is not.  It’s a bit like bringing your Ford to a Chevy garage.  A 
> result
> of “I can’t fix that” is fine.  Having the technicians pull out the spark 
> plugs and
> say “ok, here is your car back” is not.
> 
> >
> > Do you also try to install OS-X on a DELL laptop, and claim that it's
> > Apples fault that your DELL machine don't work? (God knows what
> > interesting things might happen if you actually try this...)
> 

Pretty common these days...

http://www.macworld.com/article/1140818/hackbook.html

> Most likely it will detect the wrong hardware and simply say “not supported”
> and stop.  But it won’t wipe the device BIOS in retaliation.
> 
>   paul

Dave
G4UGM

Re: organizing a trip to Cuba

[Holm Tiffe]

Jonathan Katz wrote:

[..]
> I wonder what kind of intelligence the Soviets gained from the ex-IBM
> mainframes there. At that point in time a lot of the US defense
> (NORAD) was run off of the SAGE setup, which must have had some 650s
> as a component, right?

Jonathan, I think it is _really_ naive to think that the Soviets gained any
big knowledge from that old Mainfraimes.

The soviets build the sputnik, atomic bombs and intercontinental
ROckets w/o to find such things on cuba at all.
There was'nt any technological difference betwenn the US and the USSR at
this time.

Please, please all americans, don't think that russians are stupid.
There was always a _really_ big difference between consumer and military
electronics at the times of the iron curtain in the USSR.
Don't ever think that they have something to copy to get things
(nevertheless they always copy something, but chineses are more bad..1) ).

Next thing that I really whish to get recogniced: No one can win a war
anymore, even not the americans or the NATO.
...that only since I hear that rattle of sabers again from the US and
German Government.
They have droven Putin in to a corner with that ukrainian "Revolution"
and there is nothing curious or not understandable in the sight of what he
does now.

As for IBM's claims.. maybe the cuban government can write an Invoice
for the costs of the Pigs Bay Invasion to the US government and then use
that money to pay the bill?


1)
Yes they copied the PDP11 and the VAX but, They made an VAX Chip that's
compatible to the VAX730...and we all know that the VAX730 ist not an one
chip solution as the russian chip is. Is that a copy at all?
There are an entire row of PDP11 Microprocessors, K1801VM 1,2,3, N1806VM2 the
same as the K1801VM2 in CMOS and others, chips that in this form never
where build from DEC. Look at the MK90 here:
http://www.pisi.com.pl/piotr433/

The MK90 is PDP11 compatible 

Regardl,

Holm
-- 
  Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
 Freiberger Straße 42, 09600 Oberschöna, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, i...@tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Alexandre Souza]

But unless I misunderstood things, the software merely does a check if the 
hardware looks sane, and if not it displays a message saying that this is 
the wrong hardware, and it refuses to continue running.


   No Johnny. As I said, it bricks (renders inoperable) your hardware if it 
isn't original. 

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Chuck Guzis]

On 06/23/2015 09:32 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:


But unless I misunderstood things, the software merely does a check if
the hardware looks sane, and if not it displays a message saying that
this is the wrong hardware, and it refuses to continue running.


You do misunderstand the situation.  Elnec has publicly stated that it 
checks for one of the illegal clones and subsequently erases the NVRAM. 
 This is independent of the owner's knowledge or lack thereof, that 
he's got a bootleg copy.


The intent is clear, as is the public statement.  They're taking a gripe 
they have with some Chinese bootleggers and depriving (stealing) the use 
of your device because it isn't theirs.  That is, they've determined 
that the device isn't legitimate and, as a result, disabled it--in lieu 
of taking action against a hard-to-pin-down bootlegger.


And, as mentioned, FTDI tried the same approach and got burned badly. 
All one needs is a hungry lawyer--class-action cases can pay off big.


--Chuck

Re: organizing a trip to Cuba

[Chuck Guzis]

On 06/23/2015 09:32 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:


Jonathan, I think it is _really_ naive to think that the Soviets gained any
big knowledge from that old Mainfraimes.

The soviets build the sputnik, atomic bombs and intercontinental
ROckets w/o to find such things on cuba at all.
There was'nt any technological difference betwenn the US and the USSR at
this time.


I remember that in the day, the Bulgarians (and probably other 
Warsaw-pact countries) were particularly adept at building virtual 
clones of US peripherals.  In the 70s, a couple of the CDC brass paid a 
visit and confirmed the story.


It was a trade war, in some respects--not just a "cold war".  The USSR 
didn't respect western copyrights and patents, and western countries 
reciprocated. After 1990, some amends were made (cf. "restored 
copyright" in the US).


It had its bright spots--the West got to hear music by USSR composers 
(e.g. Shostakovich, Prokofiev) played more often than they would had the 
works enjoyed IP protection.  Doubtless, Western music got a good 
hearing behind the iron curtain.


--Chuck

RE: 1990 Era computer room

[J. David Bryan]

On Monday, June 22, 2015 at 15:39, Jay West wrote:

> The disc drives appear to be HP 7900A drives.

I agree.  A few pictures for comparison here:

  http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=275

The printers appear to be Data Products 2310 drum printers, also sold as 
the HP 2767A; photos:

  http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=332

The ones in the original photo do not appear to be the HP versions, though, 
as there are no HP badges present under the operator panels.

  -- Dave

Re: Megaprocessor - built from individual transistors

[Jarratt RMA]

Yes, I saw that on The Register today. Pretty impressive. I think it should
be called a DuellProcessor. :-)

Regards

Rob

On 23 June 2015 at 16:22, Antonio Carlini  wrote:

> .Apologies if this has already been posted
>
> There seems to be someone building a processor from individual transistors:
>
> http://www.megaprocessor.com/index.html
>
> Estimated size: quite big!
>
> Antonio
>
>

Re: HP 2113e Battery resistor

[Marc Verdiell]

Thanks David. My go to place for batteries is http://www.all-battery.com/.
They are in the Valley, very cost effective, associated with Tenergy I
believe. I receive my batteries in one or two days usually. Always had very
good luck with them, and they have all possible cells in all possible grades
and finishes, from cheap Chinese to premium brand name, complete with data
sheets. 
I might put NiMH batteries instead, but they have the original format NiCd:
http://www.all-battery.com/ni-cdbatteries.aspx
They also have Li-Ion that I use to restore battery packs for older
portables (usually doubling the capacity while I am at it).
Marc

---
"J. David Bryan"  said
> Now if I can find similar cells I will be able to reconstruct the pack
> inside the same shell.

Ni-Cds are still available from Allied Electronics, Mouser Electronics, and 
others, although they are declining in availability compared to a few years 
ago.
--

Re: organizing a trip to Cuba

[Holm Tiffe]

Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 06/23/2015 09:32 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> 
> >Jonathan, I think it is _really_ naive to think that the Soviets gained any
> >big knowledge from that old Mainfraimes.
> >
> >The soviets build the sputnik, atomic bombs and intercontinental
> >ROckets w/o to find such things on cuba at all.
> >There was'nt any technological difference betwenn the US and the USSR at
> >this time.
> 
> I remember that in the day, the Bulgarians (and probably other 
> Warsaw-pact countries) were particularly adept at building virtual 
> clones of US peripherals.  In the 70s, a couple of the CDC brass paid a 
> visit and confirmed the story.

Yes, that's true.
There was actually no possibility to get a proper license or machines
even when you wanted to pay for that.
Intellectual properties simply haven't existed in the "real life"
behind the iron curtain and w/o to invent the hot water again, it simply
got copied.

Now we have a new single economic system and things have changed.
The NSA/GCHQ is spying out people all over the world, officially to fight
terrorism (if you belive that), but as it turns out they are always
interested in industrial espionage too and even spy out the mobile from
not only me, but the german cancelor (terrorist ehy? tought that are
"friends"..).


Think that's ok for you?
(not for me as for most people on the world, but they simplay take the
rights to do this which really pisses me of)

If yes, for sure you want to call it stupid that IBM still want's to get
payd for the old Mainframes, don't you?


> 
> It was a trade war, in some respects--not just a "cold war".  The USSR 
> didn't respect western copyrights and patents, and western countries 
> reciprocated. After 1990, some amends were made (cf. "restored 
> copyright" in the US).
> 
> It had its bright spots--the West got to hear music by USSR composers 
> (e.g. Shostakovich, Prokofiev) played more often than they would had the 
> works enjoyed IP protection.  Doubtless, Western music got a good 
> hearing behind the iron curtain.
> 
> --Chuck
> 

I hope we will never see times like that again..

Anyway, a german word says:

"Wer im Glashaus sitzt, sollte nicht mit Steinen werfen.."

"People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.."


Regards,

Holm

-- 
  Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
 Freiberger Straße 42, 09600 Oberschöna, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, i...@tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-06-23 18:41, Alexandre Souza wrote:

But unless I misunderstood things, the software merely does a check if
the hardware looks sane, and if not it displays a message saying that
this is the wrong hardware, and it refuses to continue running.


No Johnny. As I said, it bricks (renders inoperable) your hardware
if it isn't original.


Yes. The software refuses to run, and just displays a message that you 
are running on fake hardware.

Does that prevent you from loading some other software on said device?
How did you get the "broken" software on the device?

There is a difference between refusing to run, and trying to destroy the 
hardware.


Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-06-23 19:00, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 06/23/2015 09:32 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:


But unless I misunderstood things, the software merely does a check if
the hardware looks sane, and if not it displays a message saying that
this is the wrong hardware, and it refuses to continue running.


You do misunderstand the situation.  Elnec has publicly stated that it
checks for one of the illegal clones and subsequently erases the NVRAM.


What is in the NVRAM? And how did it get there in the first place? Are 
you saying that it is impossible to reprogram the device with some other 
firmware after you have tried the version Elnec have which detects your 
clone?


Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Alexandre Souza]

No Johnny. As I said, it bricks (renders inoperable) your hardware
if it isn't original.


   Please, read it again. 

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[geneb]

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote:


On 2015-06-23 18:41, Alexandre Souza wrote:

But unless I misunderstood things, the software merely does a check if
the hardware looks sane, and if not it displays a message saying that
this is the wrong hardware, and it refuses to continue running.


No Johnny. As I said, it bricks (renders inoperable) your hardware
if it isn't original.


Yes. The software refuses to run, and just displays a message that you are 
running on fake hardware.

Does that prevent you from loading some other software on said device?
How did you get the "broken" software on the device?

There is a difference between refusing to run, and trying to destroy the 
hardware.


He's mentioned more than once that this software BRICKS the device.  When 
something is bricked, that means you might as well treat it like the stone 
kind for all the use you're going to get out of it from then on.


It's dead, pushing up daisies, it's run down the curtain to the Choir 
Invisible.  IT'S BRICKED.


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Alexandre Souza]

He's mentioned more than once that this software BRICKS the device.  When
something is bricked, that means you might as well treat it like the stone 
kind for all the use you're going to get out of it from then on.


   In the last message I added (render it unoperable) for the ones who 
don't know the slang :)


It's dead, pushing up daisies, it's run down the curtain to the Choir 
Invisible.  IT'S BRICKED.


   Man, I LOLed with this "pushing up daisies" :D 

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[geneb]

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015, Alexandre Souza wrote:




He's mentioned more than once that this software BRICKS the device.  When
something is bricked, that means you might as well treat it like the stone 
kind for all the use you're going to get out of it from then on.


  In the last message I added (render it unoperable) for the ones who don't 
know the slang :)


It's dead, pushing up daisies, it's run down the curtain to the Choir 
Invisible.  IT'S BRICKED.


  Man, I LOLed with this "pushing up daisies" :D 


It is most assuredly NOT pining for the fjords! :)

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Megaprocessor - built from individual transistors

[Rod Smallwood]

Well if that don't take the biscuit for originality.
Good luck to you sir. Its a living animated schematic.

Rod

On 23/06/2015 17:20, Phil Budne wrote:

If I were going thru the trouble, I'd want build a TX-0 clone!

Re: Megaprocessor - built from individual transistors

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2015-Jun-23, at 12:27 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote:
> On 23/06/2015 17:20, Phil Budne wrote:
>> If I were going thru the trouble, I'd want build a TX-0 clone!
>> 
> Well if that don't take the biscuit for originality.

The physical layout concept is actually quite similar to Harry Porter's relay 
machine:
http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/index.html


> Good luck to you sir. Its a living animated schematic.

Re: [RANT] EX-PARROT (Was:False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Fred Cisin]

We have now had conflicting "definitive" statements ranging from "the 
software simply displays a message and refuses to run", to "the software 
irreparably damages the device"



But unless I misunderstood things, the software merely does a check if
the hardware looks sane, and if not it displays a message saying that
this is the wrong hardware, and it refuses to continue running.

You do misunderstand the situation.  Elnec has publicly stated that it
checks for one of the illegal clones and subsequently erases the NVRAM.
What is in the NVRAM? And how did it get there in the first place? Are you 
saying that it is impossible to reprogram the device with some other firmware 
after you have tried the version Elnec have which detects your clone?



It's dead, pushing up daisies, it's run down the curtain to the Choir
Invisible.  IT'S BRICKED.


"C: 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased 
to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im 
to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies!

'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig!
'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the 
curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!!

THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!"
http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/jokes/monty-python-parrot.html


Some modern devices have been so badly designed that it becomes possible 
IN SOFTWARE to erase/rewrite code that is required to boot the device, 
and which is required to be able to run code needed to "repair"/rewrite 
that code.  Thus "brick" the device.
(about a decade ago, we had a thread that included stacking algorithms for 
using dead/unwanted commodity devices as construction materials)



Surely any competent designer will provide a way to prevent/recover from 
that situation! 
That could consist of a physical switch or jumper that must be manually 
set before the system can writeover the NVRAM.
OR there could be a second boot ROM in the machine that could be jumpered 
into place to enable booting, perhaps to a limited recovery mode, if/when 
the primary boot is damaged.
OR, in worst case, the NVRAM could be socketed, and a replacement copy 
could be physically installed.
YES, the part(s) could be unsoldered, and replacement soldered in.  THAT 
does not seem like an acceptable recovery requirement.


Why are such incompetent designers still employed in the industry?

As a classic example of design by marketing, . . .
Vault corporation in a matter of minutes set into action (by announcement 
of "Pro-Lock PLUS") a sequence of irreversible events that eliminated the 
existence of the company.  In an essentially identical situation, of

taking retaliatory action upon detection of a "fake".
Few are aware that Vault apparently NEVER actually sold a single copy of 
the announced system.

Do we need to retell THAT saga?

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Fred Cisin]

It's dead, pushing up daisies, it's run down the curtain to the Choir 
Invisible.  IT'S BRICKED.
  Man, I LOLed with this "pushing up daisies" :D 

It is most assuredly NOT pining for the fjords! :)


It is a relatively common euphemism, and is explicitly included in the 
classic Monty Python "Dead Parrot" sketch.

http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/jokes/monty-python-parrot.html

Re: [RANT] EX-PARROT (Was:False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Sean Conner]

It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated:
> 
> Surely any competent designer will provide a way to prevent/recover from 
> that situation! 
> That could consist of a physical switch or jumper that must be manually 
> set before the system can writeover the NVRAM.
> OR there could be a second boot ROM in the machine that could be jumpered 
> into place to enable booting, perhaps to a limited recovery mode, if/when 
> the primary boot is damaged.
> OR, in worst case, the NVRAM could be socketed, and a replacement copy 
> could be physically installed.
> YES, the part(s) could be unsoldered, and replacement soldered in.  THAT 
> does not seem like an acceptable recovery requirement.
> 
> Why are such incompetent designers still employed in the industry?

  It could be due to an unforseen situation not considered by the designers. 
Several years ago a friend of mine bricked at CAR (BMW I believe---it was a
high end German car in any case).  He was updating the firmware on the car
when the power cut out, leaving the firmware in an inconsistent state.  The
fix required an engineer from Germany to fly to the US ...

  -spc (Some things you just don't think about ... )

Re: Megaprocessor - built from individual transistors

[Rod Smallwood]

This guy needs help.








































































 Send a busload of soldering techs armed with temp controlled metcals 
and about a ton of tin/lead solder


On 23/06/2015 19:37, Jarratt RMA wrote:

Yes, I saw that on The Register today. Pretty impressive. I think it should
be called a DuellProcessor. :-)

Regards

Rob

On 23 June 2015 at 16:22, Antonio Carlini  wrote:


.Apologies if this has already been posted

There seems to be someone building a processor from individual transistors:

http://www.megaprocessor.com/index.html

Estimated size: quite big!

Antonio

Re: [RANT] EX-PARROT (Was:False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Paul Koning]

> On Jun 23, 2015, at 3:47 PM, Sean Conner  wrote:
> 
> ...
>  It could be due to an unforseen situation not considered by the designers. 
> Several years ago a friend of mine bricked at CAR (BMW I believe---it was a
> high end German car in any case).  He was updating the firmware on the car
> when the power cut out, leaving the firmware in an inconsistent state.  The
> fix required an engineer from Germany to fly to the US ...
> 
>  -spc (Some things you just don't think about … )

True.  But any designer who implements firmware update without considering the 
possibility of power failure is not qualified for the job.

paul

Re: 1990 Era computer room

[COURYHOUSE]

hp drives  yes...
data printer  no...   correct  name is  data  products
and a neat  printer   if  you  were just printing  the  first 20 col zone
I remember something about this  model  banging it out  at   800 or  1000 
lpm
 
at full 80 col  it  was  300 LPM
( This  was   the  first formal sale our  computer  company had was to sell 
a  used one of these
to a consultant /  programmer  that did  stuff on apple II systems ... I t 
had   one  bad  hammer   coil  and  he  moved  it  to  col.  80 and swapped 
the good one into  the  mid  field  he  used the  thing  for  years... we  
were  to later have one of these  that came in with a HP 2000 system  and it  
served us  well until replaced  by a  600 LPM   Data Products line printer 
as we wanted to print  wider than  80  col.
 
OK  another odd thing - note tapes but  lack of tape   drives.
 
If  only we  could see what was in the rest of the   room!
 
Ed Sharpe archivist  for SMECC  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
 
In a message dated 6/22/2015 1:49:38 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
j...@jwsss.com writes:



On 6/22/2015 9:16 AM, Douglas Taylor wrote:
> I saw  this newpaper photo on ebay, item 191606970872, where these 2 
> big  wigs are proudly standing in front of their computer system 
> looking  over some printout.
>
> The actual computers in the picture don't  look familiar to me, can 
> anyone ID them?
>
>  Doug

The printers look like Data Printer 80 column printers.   Can't tell 
about the systems, but they appear to have what look like  analog meters 
on the panels, which is  interesting.

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[geneb]

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015, Fred Cisin wrote:

It's dead, pushing up daisies, it's run down the curtain to the Choir 
Invisible.  IT'S BRICKED.
  Man, I LOLed with this "pushing up daisies" :D 

It is most assuredly NOT pining for the fjords! :)


It is a relatively common euphemism, and is explicitly included in the 
classic Monty Python "Dead Parrot" sketch.

http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/jokes/monty-python-parrot.html


Fred, if there's anyone on this list that DIDN'T get the joke, they need 
to turn in their nerd cards.


:)

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: [RANT] EX-PARROT (Was:False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Alexandre Souza]

Why are such incompetent designers still employed in the industry?


   Eh...this is INTENDED by the company. They want to fry your clone 
programmer, so you can buy an original one... :o\

Re: [RANT] EX-PARROT (Was:False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Fred Cisin]

 It could be due to an unforseen situation not considered by the designers.
Several years ago a friend of mine bricked at CAR (BMW I believe---it was a
high end German car in any case).  He was updating the firmware on the car
when the power cut out, leaving the firmware in an inconsistent state.  The
fix required an engineer from Germany to fly to the US ...


It surprises me that the firmware was not in a removable module that could 
be sent to Germany.  It would seem that it would be in some sort of metal 
cased, but replaceble ECU, etc.


'course such things can alse get further complicated if they include 
security features.  Hardly any new lock system has NEVER locked out a 
legitimate user.



 -spc (Some things you just don't think about … )


ABSOLUTELY!


On Tue, 23 Jun 2015, Paul Koning wrote:
True.  But any designer who implements firmware update without 
considering the possibility of power failure is not qualified for the 
job.


Well, everybody makes misteaks.  I would have thought that that particular 
one had become common knowledge, but . . .

Re: [RANT] EX-PARROT (Was:False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Fred Cisin]

Why are such incompetent designers still employed in the industry?


On Tue, 23 Jun 2015, Alexandre Souza wrote:
  Eh...this is INTENDED by the company. They want to fry your clone 
programmer, so you can buy an original one... :o\


The retaliatory actions, certainly.

The incompetent designers that I was referring to are those who made a 
programmer that COULD be fried.


I remember unsoldering a 28 pin ROM for replacement, and was unhappy that 
it hadn't been socketed.My soldering skills (lack therof) would 
preclude doing the same on a surface mount device.

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Chuck Guzis]

On 06/23/2015 12:03 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:


What is in the NVRAM? And how did it get there in the first place? Are
you saying that it is impossible to reprogram the device with some other
firmware after you have tried the version Elnec have which detects your
clone?


It's possible, but as I understand it, reprogramming involves using a 
PICKit programming tool, something not everyone has access to.  The 
point is that prior to Elnec doing their little act of revenge, the 
clone programmer worked just fine.  Afterwards, not so much.


Perhaps an analogy might be deflating all 4 tires and the spare on your 
neighbor's car because he borrowed your lawnmower and won't return it. 
Do you have a beef?  Sure, you do.  Can you vandalize (in a 
non-destructive way) his property because you have a beef?  Most 
law-enforcement people would take a dim view of this.


--Chuck

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Dave Woyciesjes]

On 06/23/2015 03:13 PM, geneb wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote:


On 2015-06-23 18:41, Alexandre Souza wrote:

But unless I misunderstood things, the software merely does a check if
the hardware looks sane, and if not it displays a message saying that
this is the wrong hardware, and it refuses to continue running.


No Johnny. As I said, it bricks (renders inoperable) your hardware
if it isn't original.


Yes. The software refuses to run, and just displays a message that you
are running on fake hardware.
Does that prevent you from loading some other software on said device?
How did you get the "broken" software on the device?

There is a difference between refusing to run, and trying to destroy
the hardware.


He's mentioned more than once that this software BRICKS the device.
When something is bricked, that means you might as well treat it like
the stone kind for all the use you're going to get out of it from then on.

It's dead, pushing up daisies, it's run down the curtain to the Choir
Invisible.  IT'S BRICKED.

g.


Should he stick a fork in it?

--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[geneb]

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015, Dave Woyciesjes wrote:


On 06/23/2015 03:13 PM, geneb wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote:


On 2015-06-23 18:41, Alexandre Souza wrote:

But unless I misunderstood things, the software merely does a check if
the hardware looks sane, and if not it displays a message saying that
this is the wrong hardware, and it refuses to continue running.


No Johnny. As I said, it bricks (renders inoperable) your hardware
if it isn't original.


Yes. The software refuses to run, and just displays a message that you
are running on fake hardware.
Does that prevent you from loading some other software on said device?
How did you get the "broken" software on the device?

There is a difference between refusing to run, and trying to destroy
the hardware.


He's mentioned more than once that this software BRICKS the device.
When something is bricked, that means you might as well treat it like
the stone kind for all the use you're going to get out of it from then on.

It's dead, pushing up daisies, it's run down the curtain to the Choir
Invisible.  IT'S BRICKED.

g.


Should he stick a fork in it?


Only after unplugging it first.

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: [RANT] EX-PARROT (Was:False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Jules Richardson]

On 06/23/2015 02:47 PM, Sean Conner wrote:

Several years ago a friend of mine bricked at CAR (BMW I believe---it was a
high end German car in any case).  He was updating the firmware on the car
when the power cut out, leaving the firmware in an inconsistent state.  The
fix required an engineer from Germany to fly to the US ...


If you know what you're doing, you can toggle in new firmware via the 
control for the windshield wipers.

Re: [RANT] EX-PARROT (Was:False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-06-23 21:49, Paul Koning wrote:



On Jun 23, 2015, at 3:47 PM, Sean Conner  wrote:

...
  It could be due to an unforseen situation not considered by the designers.
Several years ago a friend of mine bricked at CAR (BMW I believe---it was a
high end German car in any case).  He was updating the firmware on the car
when the power cut out, leaving the firmware in an inconsistent state.  The
fix required an engineer from Germany to fly to the US ...

  -spc (Some things you just don't think about … )


True.  But any designer who implements firmware update without considering the 
possibility of power failure is not qualified for the job.


That was my reaction too. Are people seriously saying that even in 
normal circumstances, you can brick the device? The most typical failure 
mode being if you get a power interruption while flashing new firmware.
If the designers seriously did not take that scenario into 
consideration, then we have a more broken design than I would allow for.


And to respond to the people who said I should re-read the original post 
where it was stated that it was bricked... Here is the original text, 
and there is no mention of bricking.


"...The manufacturer of the fake BeeProgs stole our logo and 
intellectual property by manufacturing fake copies of BeeProg 
programmer. This "product" uses also our software and users of this fake 
BeeProg are asking for our free technical support. Although the copy of 
the BeeProg programmer is done well, the manufactures of the fake 
BeeProg overlooked few details. Result is, the fake BeeProg unit differs 
from the original, visible for the software. We've used one of these 
differences - it is not a serial number - and our software could detect 
this fake hardware. If PG4UW software detects a fake hardware, it shows 
message "Fake programmer unit detected!" and programmer will no longer work.


If you're facing such situation, contact please the vendor, where from 
you bought the programmer, for full credit return. Or you can take this 
vendor to court for selling a fake products. We regret, we could not 
provide any assistance in this case..."



Note that the text says "it shows message ''...'' and programmer will no 
longer work."
That by no means means that it is actually bricked. It merely says that 
the firmware will not continue past that point.


Now, if someone actually have one of these devices, and can verify that 
it actually bricks it, then we can talk. Until then, all I have is the 
above information from Elnec, which do not suggest anything beyond 
showing a message, and not continuing past that point.


If the manufacturer of the device have not made allowance to recover 
from a bad firmware installation, then there is a problem. But that is 
not necessarily something you can blame Elnec for either...


Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-06-23 22:05, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 06/23/2015 12:03 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:


What is in the NVRAM? And how did it get there in the first place? Are
you saying that it is impossible to reprogram the device with some other
firmware after you have tried the version Elnec have which detects your
clone?


It's possible, but as I understand it, reprogramming involves using a
PICKit programming tool, something not everyone has access to.  The
point is that prior to Elnec doing their little act of revenge, the
clone programmer worked just fine.  Afterwards, not so much.


So it is recoverable...

I assume the system can be upgraded in the field through some built in 
function in the firmware, and that function is also no longer available 
after installing the "latest" version then.


Well, the criminal part is obviously done by the company cloning the 
device in the first place. Further aggravated by selling it as some 
other device it is not. So they are fraudulent both to Elnec and to end 
users.


I know that in the US people sue for all kind of things, and sometimes 
the most amazing things stand up in courts, so I wouldn't be surprised 
to learn that this could hold up as well, but in my view, Elnec was 
perfectly in their right to do what they have done.


How about leaving it at that then? People can disagree with me all they 
want.


Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

Re: 1990 Era computer room

[Jules Richardson]

On 06/22/2015 11:43 PM, Christian Kennedy wrote:

I think the hint is on the back.  This is a story of Delaine Donohue
retiring from D&B where he created and ran the National Business
Information Center and the Central Data Collection Group between the
early 70s and early 80s.  He retired in ’89, so it’s not unreasonable to
assume 80’s vintage in the context of D&B — although the drives do
suggest earlier rather than later in the decade.


"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" etc. - maybe there was significant risk 
in replacing an old but reliable system.



so I suppose it’s
possible that these are comm processors — although IIRC most of the
original NCSS packet stuff was PDP-11 based.


To me it looks like those are pairs of analog moving-coil meters on the 
fronts, either side of the blinkenlights, which seems a little odd (I mean 
sure, maybe one such meter for checking/monitoring power inputs, but even 
then I'm surprised it would be right there on the front panels). It makes 
me wonder if these aren't some form of multi-channel data logging devices, 
rather than a general-purpose computer.

Re: 1990 Era computer room

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2015-Jun-23, at 12:50 PM, couryho...@aol.com wrote:
> hp drives  yes...
> ...
> 
> OK  another odd thing - note tapes but  lack of tape   drives.
> 
> If  only we  could see what was in the rest of the   room!

I think those are all disk cartridges, rather than tapes.

I was trying to guess what the blurred manufacturer name on the racks might be 
and find matching pics on the web but no luck so far.
Looks like one capital letter followed by a number of half-height letters.

I find it odd that the while the drives are mid-70s+, the processor panels look 
like something from the late-60s or even earlier.

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[geneb]

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote:


On 2015-06-23 22:05, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 06/23/2015 12:03 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:


What is in the NVRAM? And how did it get there in the first place? Are
you saying that it is impossible to reprogram the device with some other
firmware after you have tried the version Elnec have which detects your
clone?


It's possible, but as I understand it, reprogramming involves using a
PICKit programming tool, something not everyone has access to.  The
point is that prior to Elnec doing their little act of revenge, the
clone programmer worked just fine.  Afterwards, not so much.


So it is recoverable...


*headdesk*

Yes, technically it's recoverable.  A car that's been set on fire and left 
to burn is also technically recoverable.


I assume the system can be upgraded in the field through some built in 
function in the firmware, and that function is also no longer available after 
installing the "latest" version then.


No.  the Elnec firmware update effectively destroys the counterfeit device 
(in the absence of a person with very specific skills that can undo the 
damage).


Well, the criminal part is obviously done by the company cloning the device 
in the first place. Further aggravated by selling it as some other device it 
is not. So they are fraudulent both to Elnec and to end users.


Yes, but as is often the case, the end user doesn't know the device they 
have is counterfeit.


I know that in the US people sue for all kind of things, and sometimes the 
most amazing things stand up in courts, so I wouldn't be surprised to learn 
that this could hold up as well, but in my view, Elnec was perfectly in their 
right to do what they have done.


No they weren't.  They have effectively destroyed property owned by 
someone else.  The fact that the device they destroyed is counterfeit is 
completely irrelevant!  FTDI learned this the hard way when some drooling 
MBA decided it would be a good idea to brick people's serial devices. 
AFAIK, they're STILL suffering for that - as they well should.


If you brick a piece of equipment that I own, don't bother running. 
You'll only die tired.


g.


--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: 1990 Era computer room

[Rod Smallwood]

Yes I noticed the rarther fancy panels with the edgewise meters.
I'm begining to wonder if they might be for monitoring private comms 
circuits.

Sort of a comms test box.
The meters would be right for signal to noise and the row of buttons at 
the bottom for channel to monitor selection.


On 23/06/2015 22:11, Jules Richardson wrote:

On 06/22/2015 11:43 PM, Christian Kennedy wrote:

I think the hint is on the back.  This is a story of Delaine Donohue
retiring from D&B where he created and ran the National Business
Information Center and the Central Data Collection Group between the
early 70s and early 80s.  He retired in ’89, so it’s not unreasonable to
assume 80’s vintage in the context of D&B — although the drives do
suggest earlier rather than later in the decade.


"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" etc. - maybe there was significant 
risk in replacing an old but reliable system.



so I suppose it’s
possible that these are comm processors — although IIRC most of the
original NCSS packet stuff was PDP-11 based.


To me it looks like those are pairs of analog moving-coil meters on 
the fronts, either side of the blinkenlights, which seems a little odd 
(I mean sure, maybe one such meter for checking/monitoring power 
inputs, but even then I'm surprised it would be right there on the 
front panels). It makes me wonder if these aren't some form of 
multi-channel data logging devices, rather than a general-purpose 
computer.

Re: organizing a trip to Cuba

[Alexander Schreiber]

On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 05:59:08PM -0700, Ian S. King wrote:
> ROAD TRIP!

It is going to take a lot of bulldozers to build a road to Cuba ...

> 
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 2:06 PM, william degnan 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > http://millennialmainframer.com/2014/12/ibm-still-waiting-cuba-pay-mainframes/
> >
> > Who's up for it?
> >
> > B
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
> The Information School 
> 
> Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
> Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 
> 
> University of Washington
> 
> There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."  -- Thomas A. Edison

Re: Strange DEC PC05 paper tape reader: doc for M705 needed

[Vincent Slyngstad]

From: Ethan Dicks: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 8:07 AM

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Jörg Hoppe wrote:

Does anybody has a FPMS with schematics for the M705 modul? Perhaps as part
of some PDP-8 doc?



Vince Slyngstad has some modern schematics here:

http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/Mxxx/M705/
http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/Mxxx/M7050/
http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/Mxxx/M710/
http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/Mxxx/M715/


Thanks for the mention!

Jörg, if your boards aren't the etch levels mentioned there (or you have
trouble reading what's there), let me know, and we'll see what we can do.

   Vince 

Re: organizing a trip to Cuba

[Sean Caron]

I've spent a lot of time researching computer engineering in the Eastern
Bloc ... there aren't a lot of sources here in the West that really
describe well everything they did over there ... my Russian skills are
absolutely awful so most of my knowledge derives from these secondhand
summary papers that were written ... I always found it intriguing; while
they did their share of cloning Western designs, or creating a local spin
on a design from the West with some architectural modifications or
enhancements; being somewhat isolated from what was canonical over here,
they also had their share of quite unusual indigenous designs ... a few of
the papers I have read discuss experiments with hybrid analog/digital
computers, ternary logic, and the Elbrus VLIW design would have been fairly
innovative for the time ... the BESM-6 was not a complete slouch when first
introduced; even today, there are some interesting designs coming out of
the CIS, like the Multiclet CPU ... I'd love to get my hands on a developer
board but they are a little spendy ... And that's not to mention the
computer industries in Hungary (I'm sure everyone here has seen the
Hampage!); East Germany and so on.

Peripherals, I think they had a harder time with, due to manufacturing
tolerance and QC issues; maybe on this side the export controls were a bit
looser on peripherals versus CPUs ... I've also read the story about CDC
... I understand they did some peripherals business in the Eastern Bloc as
did some of the other players ... i.e. Memorex? So one is perhaps less
inclined to see indigenous peripherals, but there was a fair bit of
indigenous design in electronics, from what I understand.

Back to the thread, though, I do have to wonder how much old IBM "big iron"
is still ... or was ever there ... in Cuba ... I could see typewriters,
sure, maybe some punched-card business machines ... and of course
Guantanamo is still occupied by the USA so that doesn't count ... but
full-on computers? Most of those big IBM machines would have been luxuries
yet for a business here in the USA, at the time the Cuban Revolution had
ended ... I can't imagine too many would have made it to the island?

BTW hat tip on the Electronika MK-90 ... that's cool :O

Best,

Sean


On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 1:09 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

> On 06/23/2015 09:32 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>
>  Jonathan, I think it is _really_ naive to think that the Soviets gained
>> any
>> big knowledge from that old Mainfraimes.
>>
>> The soviets build the sputnik, atomic bombs and intercontinental
>> ROckets w/o to find such things on cuba at all.
>> There was'nt any technological difference betwenn the US and the USSR at
>> this time.
>>
>
> I remember that in the day, the Bulgarians (and probably other Warsaw-pact
> countries) were particularly adept at building virtual clones of US
> peripherals.  In the 70s, a couple of the CDC brass paid a visit and
> confirmed the story.
>
> It was a trade war, in some respects--not just a "cold war".  The USSR
> didn't respect western copyrights and patents, and western countries
> reciprocated. After 1990, some amends were made (cf. "restored copyright"
> in the US).
>
> It had its bright spots--the West got to hear music by USSR composers
> (e.g. Shostakovich, Prokofiev) played more often than they would had the
> works enjoyed IP protection.  Doubtless, Western music got a good hearing
> behind the iron curtain.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>

Re: 1990 Era computer room

[william degnan]

It could be a bunch of terminal multiplexers or communications controllers,
does not even have to be CPU's...

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Brent Hilpert  wrote:

> On 2015-Jun-23, at 12:50 PM, couryho...@aol.com wrote:
> > hp drives  yes...
> > ...
> >
> > OK  another odd thing - note tapes but  lack of tape   drives.
> >
> > If  only we  could see what was in the rest of the   room!
>
> I think those are all disk cartridges, rather than tapes.
>
> I was trying to guess what the blurred manufacturer name on the racks
> might be and find matching pics on the web but no luck so far.
> Looks like one capital letter followed by a number of half-height letters.
>
> I find it odd that the while the drives are mid-70s+, the processor panels
> look like something from the late-60s or even earlier.
>
>

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Alexander Schreiber]

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 06:03:33PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2015-06-23 17:59, Alexandre Souza wrote:
> >
> >>I doubt there any legal problems with their course of action. They are
> >>not obliged to ensure that their software works correctly on a pirate
> >>copy of their hardware.
> >>If they add some additional checks, and they trap out on a clone, I
> >>doubt that could be considered illegal. They do not try to destroy
> >>your device. Their software just refuse to run. And I can't see it
> >>other than they are in their right to do that. Talk with the
> >>manufacturer of the clone for a software update from them instead.
> >
> >If you use a software newer than 2.62, it bricks your clone device.
> >Period.
> 
> Yes. Ask the manufacturer of the device to fix it. Do you really
> expect that someone who have nothing to do with the device has any
> responsibility here? You (or whoever) install software that was not
> intended for the device on it anyway, and then you blame the maker
> of that software.

I strongly suspect that bricking the fake device is _not_ a side effect,
but quite intentional. Detecting a fake copy of their product, loudly
proclaiming this find and refusing to work with it is perfectly fine
and certainly within their rights. Destroying other people's property
is not.

They are certainly not the first to try to pull this one. FTDI for one
very explicitly bricked fakes of their USB-Serial chips, pissing off
quite a few engineers who then dropped FTDI as a future supplier entirely.

> Do you also try to install OS-X on a DELL laptop, and claim that
> it's Apples fault that your DELL machine don't work? (God knows what
> interesting things might happen if you actually try this...)

Since Macs have been basic x86 PCs for years, it might even almost work
(although I guess Apple probably checks for some hardware signatures
and tells you to go buy a Mac on foreign hardware). I'm pretty sure the
OS-X installer is not going to try to actively brick your Dell.

Kind regards,
   alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."  -- Thomas A. Edison

Re: [RANT] EX-PARROT (Was:False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Alexander Schreiber]

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 12:38:22PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote:
> We have now had conflicting "definitive" statements ranging from
> "the software simply displays a message and refuses to run", to "the
> software irreparably damages the device"
> 
> >>>But unless I misunderstood things, the software merely does a check if
> >>>the hardware looks sane, and if not it displays a message saying that
> >>>this is the wrong hardware, and it refuses to continue running.
> >>You do misunderstand the situation.  Elnec has publicly stated that it
> >>checks for one of the illegal clones and subsequently erases the NVRAM.
> >What is in the NVRAM? And how did it get there in the first place?
> >Are you saying that it is impossible to reprogram the device with
> >some other firmware after you have tried the version Elnec have
> >which detects your clone?
> 
> >It's dead, pushing up daisies, it's run down the curtain to the Choir
> >Invisible.  IT'S BRICKED.
> 
> "C: 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has
> ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
> 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't
> nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies!
> 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig!
> 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down
> the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!!
> THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!"
> http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/jokes/monty-python-parrot.html
> 
> 
> Some modern devices have been so badly designed that it becomes
> possible IN SOFTWARE to erase/rewrite code that is required to boot
> the device, and which is required to be able to run code needed to
> "repair"/rewrite that code.  Thus "brick" the device.
> (about a decade ago, we had a thread that included stacking
> algorithms for using dead/unwanted commodity devices as construction
> materials)
> 
> 
> Surely any competent designer will provide a way to prevent/recover
> from that situation! That could consist of a physical switch or
> jumper that must be manually set before the system can writeover the
> NVRAM.
> OR there could be a second boot ROM in the machine that could be
> jumpered into place to enable booting, perhaps to a limited recovery
> mode, if/when the primary boot is damaged.
> OR, in worst case, the NVRAM could be socketed, and a replacement
> copy could be physically installed.
> YES, the part(s) could be unsoldered, and replacement soldered in.
> THAT does not seem like an acceptable recovery requirement.
> 
> Why are such incompetent designers still employed in the industry?

Not necessarily incompetence, but probably penny pinching. Adding a
second firmware flash and the switch to toggle between primary and
secondary and another one to actually allow writing to the firmware
flash in the first place ... you can shave a bit off the BOM. Might
not matter much if you only ever make 5 devices, but over thousands
it adds up ...

Kind regards,
   Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."  -- Thomas A. Edison

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[TeoZ]

Its one thing to copy a design and stick your own name on it, another to 
clone something and stick the legit company name and logo on it. Why can't 
they brick a fake if they want to (after all it is the end user trying to 
load copyrighted firmware on a fake product not the company seeking out to 
brick any old copy)? If I sent a shipload of fake Gucci bags to California 
the local port authorities would just grab them and burn them.


-Original Message- 
From: Chuck Guzis

Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 11:22 AM
To: gene...@classiccmp.org ; discuss...@classiccmp.org:On-Topic and 
Off-Topic Posts

Subject: Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

On 06/23/2015 07:57 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote:


Some years ago, I wrote about a clone of the Beeprog (made by Elnec)
I bought here locally in Brazil.

Now, seems chinese are cloning the Beeprog PLUS (!!!)

I got a Beeprog+ in the used market here in Brazil. Asked for Elnec
warranty, since the programmer was manufactured in (month)11(year)2012.
It all went well up to the serial number.

It was made past the stop manufacture date. It stopped manufacturing
in 07/2012.

Seems I got another hot potato on my hand :'(

Pay atention on that!


I can understand Elnec's distress over the cloning of their product, but
they did themselves no favor by taking the approach described here:

"...The manufacturer of the fake BeeProgs stole our logo and
intellectual property by manufacturing fake copies of BeeProg
programmer. This "product" uses also our software and users of this fake
BeeProg are asking for our free technical support. Although the copy of
the BeeProg programmer is done well, the manufactures of the fake
BeeProg overlooked few details. Result is, the fake BeeProg unit differs
from the original, visible for the software. We've used one of these
differences - it is not a serial number - and our software could detect
this fake hardware. If PG4UW software detects a fake hardware, it shows
message "Fake programmer unit detected!" and programmer will no longer work.

If you're facing such situation, contact please the vendor, where from
you bought the programmer, for full credit return. Or you can take this
vendor to court for selling a fake products. We regret, we could not
provide any assistance in this case..."

In the USA, they would probably end up as the target of legal action,
since refusing to do the update is legitimate, but disabling the device
is a no-no.  It amounts basically to theft of a product from the
(unaware) owner--sort of an extra-judicial vigilante killing.

This reminds me of early failed floppy-copy-protection schemes.

Fortunately, there are solutions to restore functionality to the clone
Beeprog.  I do not know if the same obtains for the clone Plus.

--Chuck




---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: [RANT] EX-PARROT (Was:False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Alexandre Souza]

Now, if someone actually have one of these devices, and can verify that 
it actually bricks it, then we can talk. Until then, all I have is the 
above information from Elnec, which do not suggest anything beyond 
showing a message, and not continuing past that point.


   I have, I've seen it be bricked by the software. 

Re: 1990 Era computer room

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2015-Jun-23, at 2:28 PM, william degnan wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Brent Hilpert  wrote:
>> On 2015-Jun-23, at 12:50 PM, couryho...@aol.com wrote:
>>> hp drives  yes...
>>> ...
>>> 
>>> OK  another odd thing - note tapes but  lack of tape   drives.
>>> 
>>> If  only we  could see what was in the rest of the   room!
>> 
>> I think those are all disk cartridges, rather than tapes.
>> 
>> I was trying to guess what the blurred manufacturer name on the racks
>> might be and find matching pics on the web but no luck so far.
>> Looks like one capital letter followed by a number of half-height letters.
>> 
>> I find it odd that the while the drives are mid-70s+, the processor panels
>> look like something from the late-60s or even earlier.
>> 
> It could be a bunch of terminal multiplexers or communications controllers,
> does not even have to be CPU's...

Certainly, it's an assumption that they're CPUs, but then where are the CPUs? 
They could be behind the blank panels but it would also be a little odd to 
completely cover them up like that (no apparent power/reset/boot/run 
switches/lights). Might be CPU on the bottom portion of the front panels (row 
of 16/17) and comms as you suggest on the upper portion.

Re: organizing a trip to Cuba

[william degnan]

One way to find out!

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Sean Caron  wrote:

> I've spent a lot of time researching computer engineering in the Eastern
> Bloc ... there aren't a lot of sources here in the West that really
> describe well everything they did over there ... my Russian skills are
> absolutely awful so most of my knowledge derives from these secondhand
> summary papers that were written ... I always found it intriguing; while
> they did their share of cloning Western designs, or creating a local spin
> on a design from the West with some architectural modifications or
> enhancements; being somewhat isolated from what was canonical over here,
> they also had their share of quite unusual indigenous designs ... a few of
> the papers I have read discuss experiments with hybrid analog/digital
> computers, ternary logic, and the Elbrus VLIW design would have been fairly
> innovative for the time ... the BESM-6 was not a complete slouch when first
> introduced; even today, there are some interesting designs coming out of
> the CIS, like the Multiclet CPU ... I'd love to get my hands on a developer
> board but they are a little spendy ... And that's not to mention the
> computer industries in Hungary (I'm sure everyone here has seen the
> Hampage!); East Germany and so on.
>
> Peripherals, I think they had a harder time with, due to manufacturing
> tolerance and QC issues; maybe on this side the export controls were a bit
> looser on peripherals versus CPUs ... I've also read the story about CDC
> ... I understand they did some peripherals business in the Eastern Bloc as
> did some of the other players ... i.e. Memorex? So one is perhaps less
> inclined to see indigenous peripherals, but there was a fair bit of
> indigenous design in electronics, from what I understand.
>
> Back to the thread, though, I do have to wonder how much old IBM "big iron"
> is still ... or was ever there ... in Cuba ... I could see typewriters,
> sure, maybe some punched-card business machines ... and of course
> Guantanamo is still occupied by the USA so that doesn't count ... but
> full-on computers? Most of those big IBM machines would have been luxuries
> yet for a business here in the USA, at the time the Cuban Revolution had
> ended ... I can't imagine too many would have made it to the island?
>
> BTW hat tip on the Electronika MK-90 ... that's cool :O
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 1:09 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
>
> > On 06/23/2015 09:32 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> >
> >  Jonathan, I think it is _really_ naive to think that the Soviets gained
> >> any
> >> big knowledge from that old Mainfraimes.
> >>
> >> The soviets build the sputnik, atomic bombs and intercontinental
> >> ROckets w/o to find such things on cuba at all.
> >> There was'nt any technological difference betwenn the US and the USSR at
> >> this time.
> >>
> >
> > I remember that in the day, the Bulgarians (and probably other
> Warsaw-pact
> > countries) were particularly adept at building virtual clones of US
> > peripherals.  In the 70s, a couple of the CDC brass paid a visit and
> > confirmed the story.
> >
> > It was a trade war, in some respects--not just a "cold war".  The USSR
> > didn't respect western copyrights and patents, and western countries
> > reciprocated. After 1990, some amends were made (cf. "restored copyright"
> > in the US).
> >
> > It had its bright spots--the West got to hear music by USSR composers
> > (e.g. Shostakovich, Prokofiev) played more often than they would had the
> > works enjoyed IP protection.  Doubtless, Western music got a good hearing
> > behind the iron curtain.
> >
> > --Chuck
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Chuck Guzis]

On 06/23/2015 02:50 PM, TeoZ wrote:

Its one thing to copy a design and stick your own name on it, another to
clone something and stick the legit company name and logo on it. Why
can't they brick a fake if they want to (after all it is the end user
trying to load copyrighted firmware on a fake product not the company
seeking out to brick any old copy)? If I sent a shipload of fake Gucci
bags to California the local port authorities would just grab them and
burn them.


Oh, I agree--and there are procedures to get USCBP to do just that:

http://www.cbp.gov/trade/priority-issues/ipr

But it's awkward to get it done--and costly.  Basically, we're awash in 
counterfeit goods.


--Chuck

Re: Megaprocessor - built from individual transistors

[Chuck Guzis]

That one's been around for awhile.  Ever watch any old reruns of 60's 
era "The Outer Limits"?  When there's a computer involved, it's 
clickety-clackety of relays working.


Old TV can be fun.  The other day, I saw an episode of "Get Smart" 
showing a bank of CDC tape drives, followed by a "Mission Impossible" 
episode where Mr. Phelps receives his instructions via 4-track tape 
cartridge (which self-destructs as usual).


--Chuck

Re: [RANT] EX-PARROT (Was:False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2015-Jun-23, at 2:58 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote:
>> Now, if someone actually have one of these devices, and can verify that it 
>> actually bricks it, then we can talk. Until then, all I have is the above 
>> information from Elnec, which do not suggest anything beyond showing a 
>> message, and not continuing past that point.
> 
>   I have, I've seen it be bricked by the software. 


I'm not familiar with the Beeprog in detail, so I'm just asking here...

From what has been said the Beeprog requires a software controller, I take it 
it's not a standalone device, and people have been using the Elnec software to 
control the counterfeit hardware.

So what exactly does bricked mean here? That, after trying to run it from a new 
version of Elnec software, it will no longer run with the earlier version of 
the ELNEC software from before the counterfeits came to ELNEC's attention?
As much as a user may be annoyed with that and not endear Elnec to them, it 
still seems like that would within Elnec's 'rights' (whatever those are here).

If it will no longer run with software from the counterfeiter, or software one 
wrote oneself, then the outrage may be justified.
But did the counterfeiter ever produce their own controller software?

Re: 1990 Era computer room

[jwsmobile]

On 6/23/2015 12:50 PM, couryho...@aol.com wrote:

hp drives  yes...
data printer  no...   correct  name is  data products
and a neat  printer   if  you  were just printing the first 20 col zone
I remember something about this  model  banging it out at 800 or  1000 lpm
II do have an 80 column Dataprinter that looks like the one in the 
photo, not a Data Products.  Goes like hell at something like 5000 lines 
/ min for 10 column with derating at various numbers of columns after.


thanks
Jim

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Mouse]

> [It's] one thing to copy a design and stick your own name on it,
> another to clone something and stick the legit company name and logo
> on it.  Why can't they brick a fake if they want to [...]

The same reason I'm not allowed to smash your car window, even if your
car bears an unauthorized copy of my company's logo: it's vandalism,
basically.

> If I sent a shipload of fake Gucci bags to California the local port
> authorities would just grab them and burn them.

If you want to argue that Customs has the right to take a shipment of
the fake devices and brick them en masse, I think you'll get a lot less
argument.  A better analogy to the case at hand would be, if you sold a
fake Gucci bag retail and Gucci thought they had the right to take it
from the buyer and burn it.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Re: Megaprocessor - built from individual transistors

[drlegendre .]

When it's done, I hope he mounts it all on a black rectangular table with
20 shiny metal legs on each the opposing longer sides.

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 5:28 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

> That one's been around for awhile.  Ever watch any old reruns of 60's era
> "The Outer Limits"?  When there's a computer involved, it's
> clickety-clackety of relays working.
>
> Old TV can be fun.  The other day, I saw an episode of "Get Smart" showing
> a bank of CDC tape drives, followed by a "Mission Impossible" episode where
> Mr. Phelps receives his instructions via 4-track tape cartridge (which
> self-destructs as usual).
>
> --Chuck
>
>

Front Panel Update A and B panels

[Rod Smallwood]

Hi Guys
  I am off to Friedrichshafen for a few days and will be 
back on 1-JUL-2015.


The next two batches of front panels will be:

 8/e Type A

1.  Old switch position markings (1 and 6 vertical)

2.  Line around switch Area

3.  Vertical lines between groups of three lamps

4.   Holes for switch shaft and lock predrilled


8/e Type B

   1.  New switch position markings (1 and 6 angled)

   2.  Line around switch Area

   3.  Vertical lines between groups of three lamps

   4.   Holes for switch shaft and lock predrilled

Price as before


$95.00 + $15.00 Shipping

Rod Smallwood

Re: Megaprocessor - built from individual transistors

[Chuck Guzis]

On 06/23/2015 04:11 PM, drlegendre . wrote:

When it's done, I hope he mounts it all on a black rectangular table with
20 shiny metal legs on each the opposing longer sides.


I seem to remember that the Packard-Bell PB250 used only about 400 
transistors. (Magnetostrictive delay line memory).  Lotsa diodes.


So not totally out of the question, even today.

--Chuck

Re: Megaprocessor - built from individual transistors

[Rod Smallwood]

Which of course harks back to the Bletchley Park systems built on 
narrower but similar
British Post  Office 19" Relay Racks. The predecessors of the modern 19" 
racks.


On 23/06/2015 20:34, Brent Hilpert wrote:

On 2015-Jun-23, at 12:27 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote:

On 23/06/2015 17:20, Phil Budne wrote:

If I were going thru the trouble, I'd want build a TX-0 clone!


Well if that don't take the biscuit for originality.

The physical layout concept is actually quite similar to Harry Porter's relay 
machine:
http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/index.html



Good luck to you sir. Its a living animated schematic.

Re: organizing a trip to Cuba

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 23, 2015, at 09:32 , Holm Tiffe  wrote:
> 
> 1)
> Yes they copied the PDP11 and the VAX but, They made an VAX Chip that's
> compatible to the VAX730...and we all know that the VAX730 ist not an one
> chip solution as the russian chip is.

Ooh! Is there any chance I could get my hands on one of those single-chip 
VAX730 "clone" machines? That sounds quite cool.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Megaprocessor - built from individual transistors

[COURYHOUSE]

well how many transistors  does our  table top straight pdp-8  have?!
 
 
In a message dated 6/23/2015 4:26:38 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
ccl...@sydex.com writes:

On  06/23/2015 04:11 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
> When it's done, I hope he  mounts it all on a black rectangular table with
> 20 shiny metal legs on  each the opposing longer sides.

I seem to remember that the  Packard-Bell PB250 used only about 400 
transistors. (Magnetostrictive  delay line memory).  Lotsa diodes.

So not totally out of the  question, even  today.

--Chuck

Re: organizing a trip to Cuba

[Chuck Guzis]

On 06/23/2015 11:59 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:


Think that's ok for you?
(not for me as for most people on the world, but they simplay take the
rights to do this which really pisses me of)

If yes, for sure you want to call it stupid that IBM still want's to get
payd for the old Mainframes, don't you?


No, it's not okay with me.  We are entering a phase of world history 
where trans-national interests pretty much subvert national and 
democratic interests and simply create laws to further their own needs.


We are, in my own humble opinion, entering a brave new world.  I'm not 
at all sure that I like it.


--Chuck

Re: George!

[Ian S. King]

It looks like you've refactored/consolidated a bit - or were there
components you hadn't installed at VCF-E?

On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 2:56 PM,  wrote:

> Great save!
>
> By the  Way Evan  I like the photo of that self   contained  Syston Donner
> Analogue  computer in your   book!
> Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)
>
>
>
> In a message dated 6/22/2015 1:01:29 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
> e...@snarc.net writes:
>
> Here's a  new picture of "George" -- aka the Philbrick analog computer
> that MARCH  rescued two months ago. It was used at M.I.T. from  1958-1970.
>
> http://snarc.net/george.jpg
>
>


-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[TeoZ]

They didn't burn it, they just made it inoperable when the owner wanted to 
install new legit copyrighted firmware. If you kept it as is when purchased 
nothing would have happened.


If you took that fake unit into a company shop for free user upgrades I 
think they would have the right to rip off their logo (or deface it), remove 
the ROM contents, and toss it back to you. Granted they will not get your 
business but then again they never had it anyway.




-Original Message- 
From: Mouse

Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 7:05 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.


[It's] one thing to copy a design and stick your own name on it,
another to clone something and stick the legit company name and logo
on it.  Why can't they brick a fake if they want to [...]


The same reason I'm not allowed to smash your car window, even if your
car bears an unauthorized copy of my company's logo: it's vandalism,
basically.


If I sent a shipload of fake Gucci bags to California the local port
authorities would just grab them and burn them.


If you want to argue that Customs has the right to take a shipment of
the fake devices and brick them en masse, I think you'll get a lot less
argument.  A better analogy to the case at hand would be, if you sold a
fake Gucci bag retail and Gucci thought they had the right to take it
from the buyer and burn it.

/~\ The ASCII   Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X  Against HTML mo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!  7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Chuck Guzis]

On 06/23/2015 06:05 PM, TeoZ wrote:

They didn't burn it, they just made it inoperable when the owner wanted
to install new legit copyrighted firmware. If you kept it as is when
purchased nothing would have happened.

If you took that fake unit into a company shop for free user upgrades I
think they would have the right to rip off their logo (or deface it),
remove the ROM contents, and toss it back to you. Granted they will not
get your business but then again they never had it anyway.


Granted, but how does the average purchaser *know* that he has a 
counterfeit version?  Do you read every line of text on every vendor's 
website before you download software?  I don't--I go to the page (I 
might have gotten there via a search engine, so not have seen any other 
pages) that I'm interested in and download the software.


A simple--"you've got a clone, so we're not doing anything for you" 
would suffice.  But going to the extent of "and we're going make your 
unit inoperable, such that you'll need to seek out expert advice to get 
it back to where it was" is not cricket.  You are stealing functionality 
and putting a burden on the unwitting customer to return his unit, 
counterfeit or not, to functionality.  As I mentioned, that return to 
functionality may involve paying someone with the necessary equipment to 
do just that.


Your quarrel as a vendor is not with the purchaser who may be 
guiltless--being offered a product at a good price with no indication of 
its illegitimacy.  You've stolen from him.  He will probably hate you 
for a very long time.  While he might have jumped at the chance to 
upgrade to a legitimate unit, he'll avoid any of your products at any 
cost.


It's not just dishonest; it's stupid.

--Chuck

Re: [RANT]False Beeprog. AGAIN.

[Mark J. Blair]

FTDI recently took the same approach of having their driver deliberately brick 
counterfeit chips, rather than throwing an error and refusing to talk to them.

This is why I no longer purchase their chips or design them into my projects. A 
vendor who distributes drivers which deliberately brick hardware is too much of 
a liability. I understand that counterfeit products are a real problem, but I 
do not accept that response. 

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: organizing a trip to Cuba

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-06-24 02:06, Mark J. Blair wrote:



On Jun 23, 2015, at 09:32 , Holm Tiffe  wrote:

1)
Yes they copied the PDP11 and the VAX but, They made an VAX Chip that's
compatible to the VAX730...and we all know that the VAX730 ist not an one
chip solution as the russian chip is.


Ooh! Is there any chance I could get my hands on one of those single-chip VAX730 
"clone" machines? That sounds quite cool.


Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian VAX-11/730 on a chip came, 
DEC had already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but 
much faster than an 11/730, so it's not exactly as if the Russians were 
outperforming what DEC was doing... Exactly when did this Russian chip 
come out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC had come at the 
time of that chip. :-)


Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

Re: organizing a trip to Cuba

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 23, 2015, at 19:24, Johnny Billquist  wrote:
> 
> Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian VAX-11/730 on a chip came, DEC 
> had already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but much faster 
> than an 11/730, so it's not exactly as if the Russians were outperforming 
> what DEC was doing... Exactly when did this Russian chip come out, by the 
> way? Curious on exactly how far DEC had come at the time of that chip. :-)

I still want the Russian one, anyway! :)

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: organizing a trip to Cuba

[wulfman]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/N1839VZh2-USSR-Soviet-Russian-Clone-of-DEC-Micro-VAX-11-II-Support-IC-/380857961090

close but no cigar



On 6/23/2015 8:43 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
>> On Jun 23, 2015, at 19:24, Johnny Billquist  wrote:
>>
>> Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian VAX-11/730 on a chip came, DEC 
>> had already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but much faster 
>> than an 11/730, so it's not exactly as if the Russians were outperforming 
>> what DEC was doing... Exactly when did this Russian chip come out, by the 
>> way? Curious on exactly how far DEC had come at the time of that chip. :-)
> I still want the Russian one, anyway! :)
>


-- 
The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use 
of the named
addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any 
unauthorized use,
copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly 
prohibited by
the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please 
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Re: organizing a trip to Cuba

[wulfman]

from same seller
http://www.ebay.com/itm/L1839VM1-USSR-Soviet-Russian-Military-32-bit-CPU-Clone-of-DEC-Micro-VAX-11-II-/151342349060?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item233cb4fb04
bingo !


On 6/23/2015 8:58 PM, wulfman wrote:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/N1839VZh2-USSR-Soviet-Russian-Clone-of-DEC-Micro-VAX-11-II-Support-IC-/380857961090
>
> close but no cigar
>
>
>
> On 6/23/2015 8:43 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
>>> On Jun 23, 2015, at 19:24, Johnny Billquist  wrote:
>>>
>>> Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian VAX-11/730 on a chip came, DEC 
>>> had already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but much 
>>> faster than an 11/730, so it's not exactly as if the Russians were 
>>> outperforming what DEC was doing... Exactly when did this Russian chip come 
>>> out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC had come at the time of 
>>> that chip. :-)
>> I still want the Russian one, anyway! :)
>>
>


-- 
The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use 
of the named
addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any 
unauthorized use,
copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly 
prohibited by
the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please 
notify the sender
immediately and delete this e-mail.

Re: Megaprocessor - built from individual transistors

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 03:28:21PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> followed by a "Mission Impossible" episode where Mr. Phelps
> receives his instructions via 4-track tape cartridge (which
> self-destructs as usual).

Even the ones that were not spy-approved did that :-)

mcl

Re: 1990 Era computer room

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 03:42:54PM -0700, jwsmobile wrote:
> II do have an 80 column Dataprinter that looks like the one in the photo,
> not a Data Products.

There were two different companies, Data Printer and DataProducts.

Confused everyone even at the time IIRC.

mcl

Re: HP 2113e Battery resistor

[J. David Bryan]

On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 11:42, Marc Verdiell wrote:

> Thanks David.

You're welcome.


> I might put NiMH batteries instead

That may not be advisable, given the continuous constant-current trickle 
charger in the CPU power supply.  The Panasonic "Nickel Metal Hydride 
Technical Handbook" recommends charging for no more than 10-20 hours, 
saying:

  "The overcharging of nickel-metal hydride batteries, even by trickle
   charging, causes a deterioration in the characteristics of the
   batteries.  To prevent overcharging by trickle charging or any other
   charging method, the provision of a timer to regulate the total
   charging time is recommended." 

Panasonic's "Nickel Cadmium Batteries Technical Handbook," on the other 
hand, says explicitly that continuous trickle charging for Ni-Cds is a 
recommended charging method.

  -- Dave

Re: Megaprocessor - built from individual transistors

[Chuck Guzis]

On 06/23/2015 09:38 PM, Mark Linimon wrote:


Even the ones that were not spy-approved did that :-)


Ain't that the truth!

--Chuck

Re: organizing a trip to Cuba

[emu]

Zitat von Sean Caron :


I've spent a lot of time researching computer engineering in the Eastern
Bloc ...
...being somewhat isolated from what was canonical over here,
they also had their share of quite unusual indigenous designs ... a few of
the papers I have read discuss experiments with hybrid analog/digital
computers, ternary logic, and the Elbrus VLIW design would have been fairly
innovative for the time ...


I was pretty impressed, when I read through the documents back than.
It was a very nice design. "bad" thing was, it couldn't execute x86 code,
so nobody in the west touched it :(

Re: 1990 Era computer room

[jwsmobile]

On 6/23/2015 9:39 PM, Mark Linimon wrote:

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 03:42:54PM -0700, jwsmobile wrote:

II do have an 80 column Dataprinter that looks like the one in the photo,
not a Data Products.

There were two different companies, Data Printer and DataProducts.

Confused everyone even at the time IIRC.

mcl
The only reference I could find that separated them are to google for 
the printer ribbons.  I find a lot of the companies who list ribbons 
don't purge their databases of even the most ridiculously old products, 
and they list models.


I don't have my printer or manuals at hand, but the printer I referred 
to that looks like the ones here was about 24"  on a side. Mine was 
effectively a table top unit, but there were ones with a bottom feed, etc.


Also a very large one which was full size, 14" and just as high speed 
might be the one  in the photo.  It didn't come w/o a full floor 
cabinet.  I acquired both, but sold the larger one to a company doing 
mailing labels for magazines, and also leased the smaller one to them 
for a while.


Both could turn out 5" post cards at in incredible rate.  We had to do a 
bit of engineering to catch the output properly, as it was over 1000 lpm 
with just a return address and mailing address.


Also I don't recall the Data Products ever scaling as fast by 
restricting columns.  At least our 2230, 2260 and 2290 UC only and 96 
character set printers didn't.  Got the same speed regardless of the 
columns on those Data Products printers.  They were drum, as were the 
Data Printers, but apparently the hammer logic vs. the line feed was not 
coupled as far a speeding up with fewer columns.


Thanks
jim

Re: organizing a trip to Cuba

[Mark J. Blair]

Oh, I want the whole computer, not just the CPU chip.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Front Panel Update A and B panels

[Paul Birkel]

Can anyone recommend suitable rotary switches for either the A (vertical)
or B (angled) configuration?

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 7:16 PM, Rod Smallwood <
rodsmallwoo...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> Hi Guys
>   I am off to Friedrichshafen for a few days and will be back
> on 1-JUL-2015.
>
> The next two batches of front panels will be:
>
>  8/e Type A
>
> 1.  Old switch position markings (1 and 6 vertical)
>
> 2.  Line around switch Area
>
> 3.  Vertical lines between groups of three lamps
>
> 4.   Holes for switch shaft and lock predrilled
>
>
> 8/e Type B
>
>1.  New switch position markings (1 and 6 angled)
>
>2.  Line around switch Area
>
>3.  Vertical lines between groups of three lamps
>
>4.   Holes for switch shaft and lock predrilled
>
> Price as before
>
>
> $95.00 + $15.00 Shipping
>
> Rod Smallwood
>
>
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Re: Megaprocessor - built from individual transistors

[dave]

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015, Phil Budne wrote:


If I were going thru the trouble, I'd want build a TX-0 clone!


I think it would me more interesting to build a replica of a pdp-8 
straight-eight using significantly-reduced flip chips with surface-mount 
parts.


--
David Griffith
d...@661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Re: 1990 Era computer room

[COURYHOUSE]

 
the only one that  did the hi speed reduced  cols   was  that table  top  
80 col one  for dataproduicts that I know   of.  our  larger  ones did  not.
 
by the way that  small dataproducts also  had a  floor  pedestal that made 
it a tall tower and  you  could open   door  for  paper box...  
 
http://www.smecc.org/hewlett_packard/hewlet10.gif   you can  one of  ours  
here  form eons ago 
this photo was all  stuff  for  parts salewe  have  rooms  for  off 
this stuff wish  we  have  more of  it  left
 
 
ed sharpe
 
 
In a message dated 6/23/2015 10:13:56 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
j...@jwsss.com writes:

Also I  don't recall the Data Products ever scaling as fast by 
restricting  columns.  At least our 2230, 2260 and 2290 UC only and 96 
character  set printers didn't.  Got the same speed regardless of the 
columns on  those Data Products printers.  They were drum, as were the 
Data  Printers, but apparently the hammer logic vs. the line feed was not  
coupled as far a speeding up with fewer  columns.

Thanks
jim