Re: OT: learner kits (was: Re: using new technology on old machines)

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 19, 2015, at 19:19 , Tapley, Mark  wrote:
>   He has a Raspberry Pi, which he pretty much contempts in favor of his 
> laptop, which will play the modern version of MineCraft :-P, but presumably 
> hooking those together might be fun. 

I suspect that boards like the Raspberry Pi, Arduino, etc. might get a lot more 
interesting if they can affect the real world. See if a servo motor adds some 
appeal.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

RE: OT: learner kits (was: Re: using new technology on old machines)

[Dave G4UGM]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark J.
> Blair
> Sent: 20 June 2015 12:19
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: OT: learner kits (was: Re: using new technology on old
machines)
> 
> 
> > On Jun 19, 2015, at 19:19 , Tapley, Mark  wrote:
> > He has a Raspberry Pi, which he pretty much contempts in favor of
> his laptop, which will play the modern version of MineCraft :-P, but
> presumably hooking those together might be fun.
> 
> I suspect that boards like the Raspberry Pi, Arduino, etc. might get a lot
more
> interesting if they can affect the real world. See if a servo motor adds
some
> appeal.


I wonder if this would be of interest..

http://www.elektor.com/arduino-sensor-kit

> 
> 
> --
> Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
> http://www.nf6x.net/

Dave
G4UGM

Re: OT: learner kits (was: Re: using new technology on old machines)

[Mouse]

>   Is there a reason to prefer 7400 series over CD4000 series logic? 

If you can find real TTL, yes, I would say so.  It's less
static-sensitive and it's more tolerant to things like hooking two
outputs together by mistake.

But note that there are many chips that have more or less TTL
interfaces (TTL voltages, TTLish numbers, and in some cases switching
thresholds) but are actually CMOS - the 74ALS series comes to mind.

Of course, if someone somehow builds CMOS chips with TTL's ESD
tolerance, short-circuit tolerance, etc, then great.  But that's not
what I've seen.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
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RE: OT: learner kits (was: Re: using new technology on old machines)

[Dave G4UGM]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse
> Sent: 20 June 2015 13:54
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: OT: learner kits (was: Re: using new technology on old
machines)
> 
> > Is there a reason to prefer 7400 series over CD4000 series logic?
> 
> If you can find real TTL, yes, I would say so.  It's less static-sensitive
and it's
> more tolerant to things like hooking two outputs together by mistake.

The pack recently mentioned was, I think 74LSxx TTL which is probably the
most common and should in most cases be capable of replacing standard TTL.
The other advantage of TTL is that is quicker. On the other hand CMOS is
more tolerant of supply voltage.

> 
> But note that there are many chips that have more or less TTL interfaces
(TTL
> voltages, TTLish numbers, and in some cases switching
> thresholds) but are actually CMOS - the 74ALS series comes to mind.
> 
> Of course, if someone somehow builds CMOS chips with TTL's ESD tolerance,
> short-circuit tolerance, etc, then great.  But that's not what I've seen.

Most modern CMOS is "BE" series and so have ESD protection.

> 
> /~\ The ASCII   Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>  X  Against HTML  mo...@rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Looking for info on National Semiconductor RAM board (VAX 11/730)

[tony duell]

I am looking for any information on a National Semiconductor RAM board that I 
think goes in
a VAX 11/730. My 11/730 (which admittedly I have not run) has 2 DEC MS730 
boards and 2 of these
NatSemi boards, I found another one while unpacking stuff today.

It's a hex height DEC-type board with the ejector handles. Connections to 
fingers on A and B as you
might expect, also the grant continuity strapping on C and D, grounds on D 
(only) and a couple of signals
on C (I've not figured out what yet).

The only identification I can find on it is in the etch :

PWB 551109464-002 B
PWA 980109464

(I assume the first is the part number for the bare PCB, the second for the 
stuffed board)

There seems to be one RAM too many!. The main RAM array is 4 rows each of 32 
4164-like DRAMs.
There is a second block of 28 such DRAMs, presumably 7 bits for each row of the 
main array to
provide the ECC bits. And then a further single RAM off to one side. The DEC 
MS730 doesn't seem
to have this, and I wonder what on earth it is for.

Rest of the board is TTL drivers, etc. There are 2 LEDs, one green, one yellow. 
And a momentary pushbutton
switch. I have no idea of the functions of those.

Does anyone recognise this board?

A related point, I am thinking of removing the TSU05 from my 11/730 and putting 
an expansion 
box in place of the tape drive in the rack. In which case I can install this 
memory board. Is 5MBytes
(the maximum an 11/730 can take) worth having over 4MBytes?

-tony

Intel ipsc/860 [QIC tapes recover]

[Plamen Mihaylov]

I managed to rescue few tapes containg installation sw+c compilers, fortran
and forge. While I was trying to make a backup all cartriges broke st some
stage due to too old belts. The magnetic tape of 2 of 4 cartriges seems ok.
So I'm looking for somone within EU who has experience in this to try to
save whatever is possible.

Regards,
Plamen

RE: Looking for info on National Semiconductor RAM board (VAX 11/730)

[tony duell]

[Argh! Following up my own post :-(]

> I am looking for any information on a National Semiconductor RAM board that I 
> think goes in
> a VAX 11/730. My 11/730 (which admittedly I have not run) has 2 DEC MS730 
> boards and 2 of these
> NatSemi boards, I found another one while unpacking stuff today.

[...]

> The only identification I can find on it is in the etch :
> 
> PWB 551109464-002 B
> PWA 980109464

[...]

> There seems to be one RAM too many!. The main RAM array is 4 rows each of 32 
> 4164-like DRAMs.

> Rest of the board is TTL drivers, etc. There are 2 LEDs, one green, one 
> yellow. And a momentary pushbutton
> switch. I have no idea of the functions of those.

That switch may well be latching (alternate action). I wasnt't pressing it hard 
enough. It seems to be 
wired directly to the yellow LED (amongst other things).

I have found a mention of this board in an 11/750 FAQ (not surprising, I think 
the same 1M boards can
be used in the 11/750 and 11/730). It appears that in normal operation both 
LEDs are on. Pressing the
button turns off the yellow LED and completely disables the board. Quite why 
you'd want to do this I do
not know...

Oh, and it mentions a 'spare RAM chip in a socket on the board'. All RAM on my 
board is, indeed, socketed.
If this is just an unused chip to substitute if one fails then I think I've 
seen it all...

-tony

Re: Looking for info on National Semiconductor RAM board (VAX 11/730)

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 20, 2015, at 07:40, tony duell  wrote:
> 
> Does anyone recognise this board?

I don't recognize that board, but I thought I'd point out the non-DEC memory in 
my 730. It uses Camintonn CMX-750 memory boards, and I have a CMX-750/730 
installation manual that I can scan. I plan to scan it for Bitsavers and 
Archive.org anyway, but it can jump higher in the queue if anybody has an acute 
need for it. I pulled one board out of my machine to look at it, and it does 
not appear to have that oddball extra RAM chip. It has a red paddle type toggle 
switch and an LED.

> 
> A related point, I am thinking of removing the TSU05 from my 11/730 and 
> putting an expansion 
> box in place of the tape drive in the rack. In which case I can install this 
> memory board. Is 5MBytes
> (the maximum an 11/730 can take) worth having over 4MBytes?

In my system, the M9302 bus terminator (dual) and M7454 TU80K (quad) are in the 
same row. Would this imply that I could replace the M9302 with a BC11 cable to 
add an expansion cabinet without losing any of the functions already installed 
in the CPU cabinet? And if so, maybe Tony's system could also grow an expansion 
cabinet without losing the TSU05 card?

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

6 historic tech items that were rescued from the trash

[Lyle Bickley]

Thought this article from Infoworld would encourage all of us whose
goal is rescuing vintage computers from scrap heaps:

http://www.infoworld.com/article/2937725/computer-hardware/6-historic-tech-items-rescued-from-the-trash.html?phint=newt%3Dinfoworld_daily&phint=idg_eid%3D2511c0bc45ea0a66d3aef6ff3e21d1b1#slide1

Lyle

-- 
Lyle Bickley
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

Re: Looking for info on National Semiconductor RAM board (VAX 11/730)

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 20, 2015, at 07:58, tony duell  wrote:
> 
> Oh, and it mentions a 'spare RAM chip in a socket on the board'. All RAM on 
> my board is, indeed, socketed.
> If this is just an unused chip to substitute if one fails then I think I've 
> seen it all...

I thought of throwing that idea out there, but having lived through the great 
RAM famine the thought of a spare RAM chip seemed kind of silly. Incidentally, 
the RAMs are all soldered on my Camintonn boards.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

RE: Looking for info on National Semiconductor RAM board (VAX 11/730)

[tony duell]

> 
> In my system, the M9302 bus terminator (dual) and M7454 TU80K (quad) are in 
> the same row. Would this imply 
> that I could replace the M9302 with a BC11 cable to add an expansion cabinet 
> without losing any of the functions 

Yes, you can. The M9302 is in a 'Unibus Out', you can plug a Unibus cable in 
there to link to an expansion
box. The official way (as I think I mentioned the other day) involved special 
dual-height cards at each end
with 3 40-way Berg-type cables linking them. But the cards were just 
connectors, not even buffer chips.

It being easier to route 40 way ribon cables through the cable pan rather than 
a BC11A...

> already installed in the CPU cabinet? And if so, maybe Tony's system could 
> also grow an expansion cabinet 
> without losing the TSU05 card?

It could, other than the fact that I would like to keep it in the half-rack, so 
I would have to remove the TS05
drive to have somewhere to fit the expanison box. In any case the TSU05 could 
go in said expansion box if
I ever need it, I think.

My TS05 needs a bit of work to get it going, and I do wonder how useful it 
would be. Any comments?

-tony

Re: Wright Line punch manual

[Tony Aiuto]

Like this one? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wright-Punch-Model-2600-/331580084313

I'm not sure it really needs a manual. I repaired one with a careful
disassemble and cleaning. On mine, the cord linking the tension spring to
the mechanism had broken. A trip to the hardware store found something
similar. It took a few tries to get the right length and tension, but it
works now.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 8:27 PM, Dennis Boone  wrote:

> Does anyone have routine maintenance information (e.g. user or service
> manuals) for the Wright Line manual punches?  My newly acquired unit
> seems to need a little lubrication.  I'll guess if I have to, but...
>
> This is the variety with the large grey wheel on the side to select the
> desired character, and a sort of "wheelhouse" in the middle to hide the
> cams, ribbon mechanism, etc.  There's no model number sticker on it.
>
> Thanks!
>
> De
>

RE: Looking for info on National Semiconductor RAM board (VAX 11/730)

[tony duell]

> 
> I thought of throwing that idea out there, but having lived through the great 
> RAM famine the thought of a spare 
> RAM chip seemed kind of silly. Incidentally, the RAMs are all soldered on my 
> Camintonn boards.

All the RAMs (but not the buffers) on the NatSemi boards are in sockets. And I 
am not sure this is a
Good Thing, they are not good quality sockets at all. They're the very cheap 
ones that make contact with
one side of the IC pin only. But replacing the lot with turned pin is something 
I will only do if I start having
RAM problems on those boards.

I've done a little buzzing out with an ohmmeter : 

The green LED + a 270R resistor are across the 5V line (which is presumably the 
battery backed memory
supply line. if you have that optio). I assume this indicates the board is 
powered up.

The moving contact of the switch is grounded. 

One of the other contacts of the switch goes to the yellow LED + 270R to +5V. 
So as suggested, the yellow 
LED indicates the state of the switch.

The other contact goes into the logic. I've not traced it all out yet, but it 
would appear to disable many of
the buffers when it is low (i.e. when the yellow LED is off). So the idea that 
the yellow LED is on for normal
operation and the switch can turn it off and disable the board makes a lot of 
sense.

That 'extra' RAM gets power, but nothing else. As far as I can tell none of the 
other pins go anywhere. Isn't
that a bad idea, to have a MOS device with all inputs floating? I would have 
thought it would have been
better to tie eveything (including the +5V pin) to ground, or to power the RAM 
but have pull-up resistors
on all the inputs.

-tony
 

Re: 6 historic tech items that were rescued from the trash

[Sean Caron]

I have gotten some of my best stuff from the trash ... One day I will never
forget when I was doing my undergrad... the CS department had just gotten
their own building (previously EE/CS shared a building) and they were
cleaning house and moving out ... it was incredible; the gallery on each of
the four floors of the building had just a long row of wheelie bins... they
were each probably twice the size of your average shop garbage can ... and
they were just piled high with old workstations, peripherals, parts,
cables, software, books ... Long having lost my shame about garbage
digging, LOL, I got almost first crack at it ... once they saw me doing it,
the rest of the students realized that it was open season ... everyone went
home happy with armloads of stuff ... much celebration was had ... it was
great :O Fortunately the office where I was working part-time let me stash
some stuff while I digested it into loads that I could carry on the bus :O

Best,

Sean



On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Lyle Bickley 
wrote:

> Thought this article from Infoworld would encourage all of us whose
> goal is rescuing vintage computers from scrap heaps:
>
>
> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2937725/computer-hardware/6-historic-tech-items-rescued-from-the-trash.html?phint=newt%3Dinfoworld_daily&phint=idg_eid%3D2511c0bc45ea0a66d3aef6ff3e21d1b1#slide1
>
> Lyle
>
> --
> Lyle Bickley
> Bickley Consulting West Inc.
> http://bickleywest.com
> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
>

Re: Nopecraft - was Re: OT: learner kits

[Tapley, Mark]

On Jun 19, 2015, at 10:55 PM, Toby Thain  wrote:

> On 2015-06-19 11:21 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
>> On 19 June 2015 at 22:38, William Donzelli  wrote:
>>> Let him play Minecraft. Start with simple redstone contraptions, then
>>> move to command blocks.
>>> 
>> I'm not ashamed to admit I (24 y/o) play Minecraft now and again (with
>> friends on their own private servers). I'd suggest anyone serious
>> about trying to get someone "into" logic and programming with
>> Minecraft ...
> 
> ... NOT do that.
> 
> Sorry, had to be said.
> 
> Minecraft has nothing to do with logic or electronics and would just be an 
> unnecessarily obtuse way of approaching it.
> 
> For an adult with too much time on their hands? Sure...
> 
> —Toby

“minecraft physics” is already a derogatory term around the house. And, whether 
I encourage it or not, he’s already into building complicated redstone 
sequencers. I’m hoping at least to expand his horizons into real-world projects.

Minecraft computing has the asset that his “logic” is easy to interface to the 
“real” (ack, spit!) world, so that makes me realize that a stepper motor or 
something similar (suggested in the original thread) is a pretty good idea to 
add to the stack at some point. 

Generally speaking, I’m with you, Toby, but we are already there trying to get 
back….

RE: 6 historic tech items that were rescued from the trash

[tony duell]

> I have gotten some of my best stuff from the trash ... One day I will never

I suspect a lot of us have

When I was at university I had official permision to skip-dive (dumpster dive). 
Got
all sorts of things. Pulled my HP2100A + 7900 drive + paper tape reader right 
out
of a skip. Nearly did my back in, but,,, 

Another time I got a nice AR88LF communications receiver.

Then there was the time I saw a load of HP stuff... I grabbed the H1350 
graphics 
translator (lovely unit), etc. At the bottom was what looked to be an HP9825. 
Well,
I had one of those but I thought I could probably find a home for a second one. 
In 
any case I'd grab the I/O modules from it, and see if it contained any ROMs in 
the
front ports. So out it came. When I looked at it I realised it wasn't a 9825 at 
all,
it was the (much, much, rarer) 9831 (running BASIC not HPL) So of course I 
grabbed
that.

But a lot of my finds came to me before they were thrown out. I was known for 
wanting just about any old electronic or computer gear.

-tony

Re: Wright Line punch manual

[COURYHOUSE]

 
 
Yes, that is the  one  we have here at the museum!
yea  pretty easy ( compared to a teletype)  but we   just
like to have manuals  or  copies  of them   for  everything
we  have here in the  various  collection   areas.
 
Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
In a message dated 6/20/2015 9:39:45 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
tony.ai...@gmail.com writes:

Like this one?  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wright-Punch-Model-2600-/331580084313

I'm  not sure it really needs a manual. I repaired one with a  careful
disassemble and cleaning. On mine, the cord linking the  tension spring to
the mechanism had broken. A trip to the hardware  store found something
similar. It took a few tries to get the right  length and tension, but it
works now.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at  8:27 PM, Dennis Boone  wrote:

> Does anyone  have routine maintenance information (e.g. user or service
>  manuals) for the Wright Line manual punches?  My newly acquired  unit
> seems to need a little lubrication.  I'll guess if I  have to, but...
>
> This is the variety with the large grey  wheel on the side to select the
> desired character, and a sort of  "wheelhouse" in the middle to hide the
> cams, ribbon mechanism,  etc.  There's no model number sticker on it.
>
>  Thanks!
>
>  De
>

Re: Need DZQ11 (M3106) Print Set

[Noel Chiappa]

{Re-send, since apparently a lot of mail to CCTalk yesterday went into the bit
bucket...}

I guess I've struck out here? That's such bad luck; other things, there are
multiple copies out there, but apparently none at all of this one...

Oh well, I guess I'll start with the DZQ11 TM, and with an ohm-meter try and
trace out the initialization circuitry (which is clearly broken) at least.

Noel

Re: Nopecraft - was Re: OT: learner kits

[William Donzelli]

> “minecraft physics” is already a derogatory term around the house. And, 
> whether I encourage it or not, he’s already into building complicated 
> redstone sequencers. I’m hoping at least to expand his horizons into 
> real-world projects.

Good. He has picked up the ball, now let him run with it. Even in
unmodded Minecraft, you can do some amazing things with the redstone
logic coupled with command blocks (yes, Mr. Grumpy Man Thain, with
redstone you can have real gates and flipflops and race conditions and
such. Go explore Youtube about it.). I think there are mods for
non-RPi Minecraft that allows an interface to the real world, so when
the time comes, he can start breaking out.

I think Factorio is also getting some real logic systems, as well. It
is a better game, but not really geared for the younger crowd.

--
Will

--
Will

Re: OT: learner kits (was: Re: using new technology on old machines)

[Steve Algernon]

Its pricy, but my 3 and 7 year olds get a kick out of:

http://littlebits.cc

If you watch on eBay, there's a lot of the individual components and kits 
showing up after radio shack fire sales. 

My kids don't really understand what's going on except that in some ways they 
are obviously learning about feedback from, eg, retarding the movement of a 
servo causing voltage changes across the rest of the circuit, causing wobble in 
the audio oscillator...   Meh, and it keeps them busy, without too much work on 
my part. 

Oh, early happy Father's Day where applicable. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:43 AM, Dave G4UGM  wrote:

>> -Original Message-
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark J.
>> Blair
>> Sent: 20 June 2015 12:19
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> Subject: Re: OT: learner kits (was: Re: using new technology on old
> machines)
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 19, 2015, at 19:19 , Tapley, Mark  wrote:
>>>He has a Raspberry Pi, which he pretty much contempts in favor of
>> his laptop, which will play the modern version of MineCraft :-P, but
>> presumably hooking those together might be fun.
>> 
>> I suspect that boards like the Raspberry Pi, Arduino, etc. might get a lot
> more
>> interesting if they can affect the real world. See if a servo motor adds
> some
>> appeal.
> 
> 
> I wonder if this would be of interest..
> 
> http://www.elektor.com/arduino-sensor-kit
> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
>> http://www.nf6x.net/
> 
> Dave
> G4UGM
> 
> 

Re: Nopecraft - was Re: OT: learner kits

[Christian Gauger-Cosgrove]

On 20 June 2015 at 15:34, William Donzelli  wrote:
> Good. He has picked up the ball, now let him run with it. Even in
> unmodded Minecraft, you can do some amazing things with the redstone
> logic coupled with command blocks (yes, Mr. Grumpy Man Thain, with
> redstone you can have real gates and flipflops and race conditions and
> such. Go explore Youtube about it.). I think there are mods for
> non-RPi Minecraft that allows an interface to the real world, so when
> the time comes, he can start breaking out.
>
Let me just drop this here; it's from a few versions ago when RedPower
2 was still a thing. But here's episode 83 of Direwolf20's 4 Minecraft
let's play season:  I like to call that
episode "Let's Play 'You're Going to Learn FORTHand You're Going to
Like It, Dammit'"

Here's Direwolf20's series of tutorials on ComputerCraft; which is the
"We're Going to Learn Lua" series:



Of course, real hardware, real logic, and "real" programming are
significantly better investments of one's time and are much preferred
to Minecraft. Though, when you throw mods into the mix Minecraft isn't
all *that* bad.


> I think Factorio is also getting some real logic systems, as well. It
> is a better game, but not really geared for the younger crowd.
>
I've been wanting to try that game out, but not nearly enough time on
my hands to do so.


Regards,
Christian
-- 
Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
STCKON08DS0
Contact information available upon request.

Re: Nopecraft - was Re: OT: learner kits

[William Donzelli]

> Of course, real hardware, real logic, and "real" programming are
> significantly better investments of one's time and are much preferred
> to Minecraft. Though, when you throw mods into the mix Minecraft isn't
> all *that* bad.

A 14 year old mind does not work that way. And Minecraft is like crack
to 14 year olds.

--
Will

Re: Nopecraft - was Re: OT: learner kits

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 20, 2015, at 14:49, William Donzelli  wrote:
> 
>> Of course, real hardware, real logic, and "real" programming are
>> significantly better investments of one's time and are much preferred
>> to Minecraft. Though, when you throw mods into the mix Minecraft isn't
>> all *that* bad.
> 
> A 14 year old mind does not work that way. And Minecraft is like crack
> to 14 year olds.

Right. Get 'em hooked on Minecraft, and then it'll be easier to push them into 
harder drugs like VHDL later! :)


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Nopecraft - was Re: OT: learner kits

[Christian Gauger-Cosgrove]

On 20 June 2015 at 17:49, William Donzelli  wrote:
> A 14 year old mind does not work that way. And Minecraft is like crack
> to 14 year olds.
>
Very true, very, very true.


So how do we make a 14 year old actually get interested in real world
things as opposed to Minecraft? I think that old minicomputers would
help get kids more interested in real world things, since the
instruction set architecture of an '8, '11, or NOVA are much easier to
work with then x86-64.


Cheers,
Christian
-- 
Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
STCKON08DS0
Contact information available upon request.

Re: Nopecraft - was Re: OT: learner kits

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 20, 2015, at 15:00, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove 
>  wrote:
> So how do we make a 14 year old actually get interested in real world
> things as opposed to Minecraft? I think that old minicomputers would
> help get kids more interested in real world things, since the
> instruction set architecture of an '8, '11, or NOVA are much easier to
> work with then x86-64.

I think that will depend strongly on the individual kid in question, who might 
view the minicomputer either as a dusty obsolete boring thing, or a fascinating 
machine unlike anything (s)he presently takes for granted. If you have a kid 
and a minicomputer, and your kid shows any interest in that dusty old box, then 
run with it. If not, then find something else that catches their interest in a 
way that can trick them into learning to think creatively and solve problems. 
The end result is much more important than how you get there.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Need DZQ11 (M3106) Print Set

[Paul Anderson]

Hi Noel,

 If you have a minute, call me.

Thanks, Paul

On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Noel Chiappa 
wrote:

> {Re-send, since apparently a lot of mail to CCTalk yesterday went into the
> bit
> bucket...}
>
> I guess I've struck out here? That's such bad luck; other things, there are
> multiple copies out there, but apparently none at all of this one...
>
> Oh well, I guess I'll start with the DZQ11 TM, and with an ohm-meter try
> and
> trace out the initialization circuitry (which is clearly broken) at least.
>
> Noel
>

Re: Nopecraft - was Re: OT: learner kits

[Steve Algernon]

And one more mine craft thingy, with a raspberry pi twist:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/withpiper/piper-a-minecraft-toolbox-for-budding-engineers

They had these set up on pi day at the CHM and the kids involved really seemed 
to get into the physical interfacing and puzzles. 

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20, 2015, at 12:34 PM, William Donzelli  wrote:

>> “minecraft physics” is already a derogatory term around the house. And, 
>> whether I encourage it or not, he’s already into building complicated 
>> redstone sequencers. I’m hoping at least to expand his horizons into 
>> real-world projects.
> 
> Good. He has picked up the ball, now let him run with it. Even in
> unmodded Minecraft, you can do some amazing things with the redstone
> logic coupled with command blocks (yes, Mr. Grumpy Man Thain, with
> redstone you can have real gates and flipflops and race conditions and
> such. Go explore Youtube about it.). I think there are mods for
> non-RPi Minecraft that allows an interface to the real world, so when
> the time comes, he can start breaking out.
> 
> I think Factorio is also getting some real logic systems, as well. It
> is a better game, but not really geared for the younger crowd.
> 
> --
> Will
> 
> --
> Will

Re: Nopecraft - was Re: OT: learner kits

[William Donzelli]

> Right. Get 'em hooked on Minecraft, and then it'll be easier to push them 
> into harder drugs like VHDL later! :)

There is a good grain of truth to that. In complex Minecraft command
block systems, a programmer has to think about many, many tasks,
running in parallel, each triggered by real time events connected with
the redstone logic network. That starts to sound like Verilog.

In thinking further - I might think that learning to do complex
Minecraft command block systems is probably *better* for training
future engineers that giving them a bunch of TTL and a protoboard.

--
Will

Re: HP 2113e Battery resistor

[Marc Verdiell]

Ah thanks, this is what these are for, thermistors. They are supposed to
monitor the temperature somewhere I suppose? Attached to the batteries? The
power supplies? The computer won't start without these I understand? Sorry I
am a bit of a newbee with HP 1000's. Have not tried to power mine quite yet.
Marc


>Glen Slick  said

>The Temperature Sense Thermistor RT1, normaly 815 ohms, is wired
>across the two outside pins of the middle row, pins 4 and 6.
>http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/1000_MEF_EngrRef/92851-90001_Jun79_9.p
df
>Description page 111
>Schematic page 168

Place for a build log?

[Marc Verdiell]

I like to do build logs for my more complex and long lived restorations or
builds, so people can inspire themselves from what I do, and give advice
(and encouragement, that helps too!). 

In one of my many other hobbies (hum, R2-D2 robot replica building, yes,
there is such a thing), everyone puts their build log as a thread on a
Forum. Very easy to search and follow. Members of the forum also have a
place to store files. The best build logs get a lot of hits.

Do you have an equivalent for classic computer restorations? I see some
people have their own blog on regular blog sites. But I dislike the format -
it's posted reverse latest first, you can only see the latest posts at once.
Not anywhere as good as a thread.

Or people have their own website, which is a bit of a pain as you have to
discover them one by one - and spend time making a web site.

And I have not found the equivalent of our "Builder Logs Thread" on the
Vintage Computer Forums which I just "discovered". 

Any other/better/smarter solutions you can point me to?

- Marc

Re: Place for a build log?

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 20, 2015, at 19:43, Marc Verdiell  wrote:
> Do you have an equivalent for classic computer restorations? I see some
> people have their own blog on regular blog sites. But I dislike the format -
> it's posted reverse latest first, you can only see the latest posts at once.
> Not anywhere as good as a thread.

I think it should be possible to configure Wordpress to display posts from 
oldest to newest. It's just not conventional for blogs to be that way. You 
might also dedicate one post to each build, and edit that build to tack on 
updates. That's not so helpful for people who want to get updates via RSS for 
new activity, though. I took a quick look at my site's settings and didn't find 
a simple click option to reverse the sort order, but I'm sure it's still 
do-able.

> And I have not found the equivalent of our "Builder Logs Thread" on the
> Vintage Computer Forums which I just "discovered". 

Maybe Erik would consider adding a category on VCF for build logs? If not, 
there's nothing stopping you from posting a new thread in an appropriate 
category there. Though if the build happens to be off-topic for VCF, it might 
get more attention on a more closely-related forum than in the off-topic area 
on VCF.

For R2-D2 robot replica building, maybe there's some robotics or maker forum 
where it will get the most attention and participation? Or maybe you would 
consider giving the robot an LSI-11 for a brain so it can sneak into VCF? :)

Twitter also has its place for our activities, but it's best suited for 
immediate interaction around a very short "Hey, look at my cool thing!" posting 
which will quickly drop into obscurity. Twitter, mailing lists, Facebook (GACK! 
EVIL!), forums, blogs, etc. all have their own styles, plusses and minuses.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: HP 2113e Battery resistor

[Glen Slick]

I have only looked at the "B" version of the power supply as that is
what I have in my 2117F. (Now that I think of it I'm not sure what
version of the power supply I have in my 2113B). The details for that
are covered in the 5061-1356 section of the 92851-90001_Jun79_9.pdf
manual referenced below starting on page 84 of the PDF.

As described in section 3-9 on page 105 of the PDF the Power Fail
Recovery System (PFRS) option consists of the Battery Charger Board
(A3A3) and the Battery Backup Board (A3A4) which are mounted
internally in the power supply, and the external mounted
Battery/Status Assembly. If the PFRS option is not present the Jumper
Board (A3A4) is installed internally in the power supply instead of
the Battery Charger Board (A3A3) and the Battery Backup Board (A3A4).
If you open up your system far enough to remove the lid on the power
supply you can visually inspect the installed boards to determine
whether or not the PFRS option is installed in the power supply.

The battery pack over-temperature thermistor is integrated into the
battery pack. It ends up being connected to the TEMP1 and TEMP2
signals shown on the Battery Charger Board (A3A3) schematic Sheet 6 on
page 136 of the PDF. If the PFRS option is not installed the Battery
Charger Board (A3A3) is not present and there is nothing that would
connect to the battery pack thermistor so it is not necessary for the
operation of the power supply.

If the PFRS option is installed but the thermistor or resistor
equivalent is not connected the CPU will power on but will not be
functional. I think all of the front panel lights turn on and none of
the switches have any effect. It's been a long time since I looked at
that in detail to figure out what was going on. I think some of the
voltages are at the correct level, but maybe the memory voltages are
not, and some of the power supply status signals (PSU?, PON?) indicate
the power supply is not ready and that holds the system in the
inactive state.

-Glen


On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 7:30 PM, Marc Verdiell  wrote:
> Ah thanks, this is what these are for, thermistors. They are supposed to
> monitor the temperature somewhere I suppose? Attached to the batteries? The
> power supplies? The computer won't start without these I understand? Sorry I
> am a bit of a newbee with HP 1000's. Have not tried to power mine quite yet.
> Marc
>
>
>>Glen Slick  said
>
>>The Temperature Sense Thermistor RT1, normaly 815 ohms, is wired
>>across the two outside pins of the middle row, pins 4 and 6.
>>http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/1000_MEF_EngrRef/92851-90001_Jun79_9.p
> df
>>Description page 111
>>Schematic page 168

Re: Nopecraft - was Re: OT: learner kits

[Toby Thain]

On 2015-06-20 8:06 PM, William Donzelli wrote:

Right. Get 'em hooked on Minecraft, and then it'll be easier to push them into 
harder drugs like VHDL later! :)


There is a good grain of truth to that. In complex Minecraft command
block systems, a programmer has to think about many, many tasks,
running in parallel, each triggered by real time events connected with
the redstone logic network. That starts to sound like Verilog.


Except with pointless obfuscation and click'n'drool topping.

Standing by NOPE here.

--Toby




In thinking further - I might think that learning to do complex
Minecraft command block systems is probably *better* for training
future engineers that giving them a bunch of TTL and a protoboard.

--
Will

Front Panel Tech Note 5 - Options

[Rod Smallwood]

Hi Guys

The combination of shipments going out and resposes to the 
survay (thanks everybody)

have shown up some diffences between 8/e's.

The first and most important one is the change of markings for the 
selector switch where they must have changed switch type at some point.
Its the case that you will have one or the other.  I can get another 
screen made up with the angled markings at switch positions 1 and 6.

When you order you can then specify which one you require.

The other two are cosmetic and have no impact on operation. Firstly 
there is sometimes a line around the  area where the selector switch is 
located.
Secondly vertical lines dividing up the lamps into groups of three are 
sometimes present.


I can't yet work out if there's any pattern to where they do and dont 
appear. (not enough data)
 The easiest way to fix this is to either add the markings to all the 
panels or none of them.


Comments please

Rod