Re: [Ayatana] Dash search vs Alt+F2 in 11.10
2011/9/28 Evan Huus > On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 6:12 PM, Stefanos A. wrote: > > And a different viewpoint: Win7 doesn't distinguish between 'execute > > command', 'launch application', 'search applications' and 'search files' > in > > its Dash equivalent. Instead, it works through the list in that order: if > > the text entered matches a command, then it's treated as a command (e.g. > > "ping example.com" or "firefox example.com"); if it matches an > application, > > it launches the application; if it doesn't match an application it > searches > > for applications with similar names; and if no match exists, it performs > a > > full file search. > > This approach really is seamless. It covers every feature discussed in > this > > thread and does so in a simple, logical and efficient manner. > > It doesn't quite cover every feature, as running a command in a > terminal still requires two steps (open terminal, run command). It is > none-the-less an improvement over the current dash. > > Not really, because applications targetting the console subsystem automatically open a terminal on Windows. If you happen to have a WinXP/Vista/7 installation lying around, hit Win+R (for WinXP) or Win (otherwise) and type "ping google.com". A terminal pops up automatically. If you do the same on Unity Alt-F2 Dash, you'll just create a zombie process - not very nice. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] super+n+up/down/home to rearrange launcher icons.
2011/9/28 Jo-Erlend Schinstad > Den 27. sep. 2011 16:39, skrev David: > > I like the idea, but wouldn't it mean coding a delay before Unity actually >> launches the program? Otherwise, how will it know whether you want to >> launch or just move the icon? >> > > No, it wouldn't, because you wouldn't actually initiate anything until the > buttons were released. From a users point of view, this shouldn't change > anything. If you press and hold super+2, then nothing happens, except that > the launcher stays visible. When you release 2, then you switch to the > second entry. > > I just tried and the Launcher currently activates on key press, not release. Super+2 activates without releasing the key. Change the key press to key release would indeed introduce an unacceptable delay. I have already filed bugs on Unity for things that are activated on release rather than press, like the BFB (now Dash button - it's not movable so there's absolutely no reason to activate on release). These things make Unity feel slow, even though it isn't. Gratuitously introduce more delays is not the way to go. Especially since you can add a different shortcut for reordering, such as Shift+Super, and keep *both* actions on key press. In fact, that's how the workspace switcher works: Control+Alt is activated on key down, as is Shift+Control+Alt. Simple, symmetrical and no additional delays. (Interesting anecdote: many reviewers commented that Office 2007 was much faster than Office 2003 because its right-click menu activates on mouse down and not mouse up. This was actually made a big deal back then! I'm bringing this up to highlight that this is not a non-issue - there is measurable speed difference that affects user satisfaction). ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] super+n+up/down/home to rearrange launcher icons.
Den 28. sep. 2011 11:24, skrev Stefanos A.: I just tried and the Launcher currently activates on key press, not release. Super+2 activates without releasing the key. Yes, and that would have to be changed. Change the key press to key release would indeed introduce an unacceptable delay. I have already filed bugs on Unity for things that are activated on release rather than press, like the BFB (now Dash button - it's not movable so there's absolutely no reason to activate on release). These things make Unity feel slow, even though it isn't. Gratuitously introduce more delays is not the way to go. Unacceptable delay? I estimate a delay of about 20ms. Perhaps you've misunderstood something? Especially since you can add a different shortcut for reordering, such as Shift+Super, and keep *both* actions on key press. In fact, that's how the workspace switcher works: Control+Alt is activated on key down, as is Shift+Control+Alt. Simple, symmetrical and no additional delays. It would never make sense to cancel those events. That's something that's been bugging me about Gnome for many years, that if you clicked the wrong menu entry, then it was not possible to cancel it. You would have to run that application, close it, open the menu and then start the right application. If the action was initiated on release, then you could've simply pressed esc to cancel. It's seriously annoying to be unable to cancel launching LibreOffice because I hit 5 instead of 4. I should be able to hit esc before I release and prevent it. (Interesting anecdote: many reviewers commented that Office 2007 was much faster than Office 2003 because its right-click menu activates on mouse down and not mouse up. This was actually made a big deal back then! I'm bringing this up to highlight that this is not a non-issue - there is measurable speed difference that affects user satisfaction). I am unable to verify that claim, but I've been told that many people gets kidnapped by aliens too. Those kinds of unsubstantiated claims carry very little weight with me. But you're talking about consistency? When you use the mouse, then the entries are not activated by press, but by release, and only if you don't press and hold for long periods of time, like more than one second. When you use the keyboard, it is opposite. Why is that a good idea? In any event, I realized that it would be better to hold shift in alt+f1 to move entries up and down. Jo-Erlend Schinstad ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Dash search vs Alt+F2 in 11.10
But Alt-F1 triggers keyboard navigation of the launcher, not the dash. You can switch directlyfrom there to either dash or the Run dialog without any other action. To open the dash, briefly press and release Super, which is a very different shortcut from Alt-F2, and not likely to be confused. It is true they look identical and serve very different functions, but be cause they are each accessed so differently, it's unlikely that a user would open one when they meant to open the other. And one might use "killall Thunderbird" to terminate Thunderbird if it freezes. It was a rhetorical example, but the point is that sometimes it is useful to run a command without opening a terminal, particularly if you would then immediately close the terminal. If I want to actually run a command in a terminal, then I place a terminal shortcut in launcher position #7 (for example) and the can subsequently press Super-7 to open the terminal, at which point I can run my command. This is equally as fast as the Windows examples, and doesn't rely on exposing the command prompt to new users (which is a good thing). For one-offs, I can still use Alt-F2. On Sep 27, 2011 3:58 PM, "Stefanos A." wrote: > 2011/9/27 Ian Santopietro > >> Adding a 5th stop just makes it harder to get to it. The point of having >> the separate dashes, as I see it, is to provide very quick access to both >> pieces of very important functionality. >> > > Alt-F2 will still be available. I suggested the *addition* of a way to move > between Alt-F1 and Alt-F2 modes, not the removal of Alt-F2. See my previous > post for the rationale. > > >> There isn't really a reason to switch from one to the other, since they >> behave differently (i.e. you wouldn't use Alt+F2 to open firefox, and you >> wouldn't use Dash to run "killall thunderbird"). >> > > They behave differently but they look identical - the current watertight > division is completely artificial. Try explaining the difference between > Alt-F1 and Alt-F2 to a new user in a single sentence (no, really, try!) > > Besides, why wouldn't I use the Dash to "killall thunderbird"? What if I > press Alt-F1 instead of Alt-F2 by mistake? Should I close the Dash, reopen > it in Alt-F2 mode and retype the whole command? That's not very > user-friendly (and, yes, this happens to me from time to time). Gnome Do > used to support this seamlessly and effortlessly, by offering an "execute > command in terminal" option along with "launch application" and "search > files". There is very little reason why the Dash supports the latter two in > the same way but compartmentalizes the first into a separate place. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Dash search vs Alt+F2 in 11.10
Den 28. sep. 2011 11:51, skrev Ian Santopietro: But Alt-F1 triggers keyboard navigation of the launcher, not the dash. You can switch directlyfrom there to either dash or the Run dialog without any other action. To open the dash, briefly press and release Super, which is a very different shortcut from Alt-F2, and not likely to be confused. It is true they look identical and serve very different functions, but be cause they are each accessed so differently, it's unlikely that a user would open one when they meant to open the other. Agreed. And one might use "killall Thunderbird" to terminate Thunderbird if it freezes. It was a rhetorical One might do that, but it would have little effect. :) example, but the point is that sometimes it is useful to run a command without opening a terminal, particularly if you would then immediately close the terminal. If I want to actually run a command in a terminal, then I place a terminal shortcut in launcher position #7 (for example) and the can subsequently press Super-7 to open the terminal, at which point I can run my command. I think that's the proper way to do it. I don't think I've ever checked the checkbox in the old alt+f2 dialog to run a command in a terminal. And back then, that was usually much faster to open than the terminal. It's just never been comfortable and I'm glad that option is gone. This is equally as fast as the Windows examples, and doesn't rely on exposing the command prompt to new users (which is a good thing). For one-offs, I can still use Alt-F2. Ah, a voice of reason. :) Jo-Erlend Schinstad ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Dash search vs Alt+F2 in 11.10
It may sound off-topic, but it's related I think: Up until Beta 2 was released, I had this "bug" (I don't know if it's fixed, as I had to do a clean install on my laptop and didn't have time to install Beta 2 yet). When I installed Gnome-Shell (yes, blasphemer) Alt-F2 did NOT work there at all. Somehow, I think Alt-F2 is too strongly tied to Unity and it just did not work with Gnome-Shell on Ubuntu 11.10 Beta 1 (it's possible that it would not work on any other DE but Unity). Is Canonical's position that Gnome-Shell is not supported, or should the dev's make effort to have this functionality (and others, possibly, but that would be really off-topic to discuss here) work with Gnome-Shell (and other DE's a user might install) as well? I think it all comes to how Alt-F2 is implemented and therefore it is on-topic ;) Eylem On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 6:31 AM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: > Den 28. sep. 2011 11:51, skrev Ian Santopietro: >> >> But Alt-F1 triggers keyboard navigation of the launcher, not the dash. You >> can switch directlyfrom there to either dash or the Run dialog without any >> other action. To open the dash, briefly press and release Super, which is a >> very different shortcut from Alt-F2, and not likely to be confused. It is >> true they look identical and serve very different functions, but be cause >> they are each accessed so differently, it's unlikely that a user would open >> one when they meant to open the other. >> > Agreed. >> >> And one might use "killall Thunderbird" to terminate Thunderbird if it >> freezes. It was a rhetorical >> > One might do that, but it would have little effect. :) >> >> example, but the point is that sometimes it is useful to run a command >> without opening a terminal, particularly if you would then immediately close >> the terminal. If I want to actually run a command in a terminal, then I >> place a terminal shortcut in launcher position #7 (for example) and the can >> subsequently press Super-7 to open the terminal, at which point I can run my >> command. >> > I think that's the proper way to do it. I don't think I've ever checked the > checkbox in the old alt+f2 dialog to run a command in a terminal. And back > then, that was usually much faster to open than the terminal. It's just > never been comfortable and I'm glad that option is gone. >> >> This is equally as fast as the Windows examples, and doesn't rely on >> exposing the command prompt to new users (which is a good thing). For >> one-offs, I can still use Alt-F2. >> >> > Ah, a voice of reason. :) > > Jo-Erlend Schinstad > > > ___ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Dash search vs Alt+F2 in 11.10
Den 28. sep. 2011 13:48, skrev Eylem Koca: It may sound off-topic, but it's related I think: Up until Beta 2 was released, I had this "bug" (I don't know if it's fixed, as I had to do a clean install on my laptop and didn't have time to install Beta 2 yet). When I installed Gnome-Shell (yes, blasphemer) Alt-F2 did NOT work there at all. Somehow, I think Alt-F2 is too strongly tied to Unity and it just did not work with Gnome-Shell on Ubuntu 11.10 Beta 1 (it's possible that it would not work on any other DE but Unity). Is Canonical's position that Gnome-Shell is not supported, or should the dev's make effort to have this functionality (and others, possibly, but that would be really off-topic to discuss here) work with Gnome-Shell (and other DE's a user might install) as well? I think it all comes to how Alt-F2 is implemented and therefore it is on-topic ;) Unity is not a DE. It is a shell and yes, these types of things are shell specific. Gnome has always used Alt+F2 for this, so it comes as a surprise to me that they've removed it in Gnome Shell. I don't think neither Xfce or LXDE uses this. That's fine. They don't use super for menus either, as far as I'm aware. It has nothing to do with Gnome Shell being supported or not. They're just different. Jo-Erlend Schinstad ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] super+n+up/down/home to rearrange launcher icons.
2011/9/28 Jo-Erlend Schinstad > Den 28. sep. 2011 11:24, skrev Stefanos A.: > > Change the key press to key release would indeed introduce an unacceptable >> delay. I have already filed bugs on Unity for things that are activated on >> release rather than press, like the BFB (now Dash button - it's not movable >> so there's absolutely no reason to activate on release). These things make >> Unity feel slow, even though it isn't. Gratuitously introduce more delays is >> not the way to go. >> >> Unacceptable delay? I estimate a delay of about 20ms. Perhaps you've > misunderstood something? Where did you pull this 20ms estimation from? Any references? As you said, " those kinds of unsubstantiated claims carry very little weight with me ." (Your number is wrong by an order of magnitude, but I'd really love to hear how you arrived at 20ms.) > Especially since you can add a different shortcut for reordering, such as >> Shift+Super, and keep *both* actions on key press. In fact, that's how the >> workspace switcher works: Control+Alt is activated on key down, as is >> Shift+Control+Alt. Simple, symmetrical and no additional delays. >> >> It would never make sense to cancel those events. That's something that's > been bugging me about Gnome for many years, that if you clicked the wrong > menu entry, then it was not possible to cancel it. You would have to run > that application, close it, open the menu and then start the right > application. If the action was initiated on release, then you could've > simply pressed esc to cancel. It's seriously annoying to be unable to cancel > launching LibreOffice because I hit 5 instead of 4. I should be able to hit > esc before I release and prevent it. Off-hand, this looks difficult to implement, because the Launcher does not have keyboard focus and will not (cannot) receive the Esc key without bad side-effects. It's an interesting idea but doesn't really belong to this thread. > > (Interesting anecdote: many reviewers commented that Office 2007 was much >> faster than Office 2003 because its right-click menu activates on mouse down >> and not mouse up. This was actually made a big deal back then! I'm bringing >> this up to highlight that this is not a non-issue - there is measurable >> speed difference that affects user satisfaction). >> > > I am unable to verify that claim, but I've been told that many people gets > kidnapped by aliens too. Those kinds of unsubstantiated claims carry very > little weight with me. But you're talking about consistency? When you use > the mouse, then the entries are not activated by press, but by release, and > only if you don't press and hold for long periods of time, like more than > one second. When you use the keyboard, it is opposite. Why is that a good > idea? > My anecdote came from a reputable dead-tree IT magazine back from 2006, in a language you are unlikely to be proficient in. Google results in too much noise, so just take it or leave it. (However, you can verify the claim very easily if you have access to Office 2007 and 2003 or LibreOffice). In any case mouse is completely different than the keyboard. All Gnome keyboard shortcuts act upon key press (Alt+F4, Ctrl+W, ...) and applications are should not mess with that. There is no clear guideline for mouse press vs release, so Unity is in gray waters there (most Gnome mouse navigation acts in mouse press but I can see where the Unity developers are coming from. I'd certainly prefer Shift+Click for moving Launcher items, instead of drag&drop). ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Dash search vs Alt+F2 in 11.10
2011/9/28 Ian Santopietro > But Alt-F1 triggers keyboard navigation of the launcher, not the dash. You > can switch directlyfrom there to either dash or the Run dialog without any > other action. To open the dash, briefly press and release Super, which is a > very different shortcut from Alt-F2, and not likely to be confused. It is > true they look identical and serve very different functions, but be cause > they are each accessed so differently, it's unlikely that a user would open > one when they meant to open the other. > You are right, please replace all my "Alt-F1" references by "Super". That's what you get for writing without coffee in the morning. As for it being unlikely, I'd argue that it isn't. There are many times where I hit Super only to decide I'd rather enter a command rather than launch an application. Right now it's impossible to mode-switch easily, because you have to close and reopen the Dash. This fells ugly. > And one might use "killall Thunderbird" to terminate Thunderbird if it > freezes. It was a rhetorical example, but the point is that sometimes it is > useful to run a command without opening a terminal, particularly if you > would then immediately close the terminal. > Indeed, which is why I use the Alt-F2 prompt. What I am arguing for is a way to access Alt-F2 functionality from the main Dash. Several ways were presented. My favourite so far: Enter key launches application (as now); Ctrl+Enter interprets the text as a command. Simple and intuitive. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Dash search vs Alt+F2 in 11.10
On 28 September 2011 07:48, Eylem Koca wrote: > It may sound off-topic, but it's related I think: Up until Beta 2 was > released, I had this "bug" (I don't know if it's fixed, as I had to do > a clean install on my laptop and didn't have time to install Beta 2 > yet). When I installed Gnome-Shell (yes, blasphemer) Alt-F2 did NOT > work there at all. Somehow, I think Alt-F2 is too strongly tied to > Unity and it just did not work with Gnome-Shell on Ubuntu 11.10 Beta 1 > (it's possible that it would not work on any other DE but Unity). > Is Canonical's position that Gnome-Shell is not supported, or should > the dev's make effort to have this functionality (and others, > possibly, but that would be really off-topic to discuss here) work > with Gnome-Shell (and other DE's a user might install) as well? I > think it all comes to how Alt-F2 is implemented and therefore it is > on-topic ;) The broken keyboard shortcuts bug in GNOME Shell is http://pad.lv/856884 and is a problem in Compiz. You can workaround it with steps 1 and 2 on the bug's test case. Jeremy ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Dash search vs Alt+F2 in 11.10
It is simple, but it isn't intuitive. Pressing enter (in combination with any other key) indicates that you want to do an action with the item selected on the screen. We don't want the dash to search commands, as this is not end-user friendly. A new user should never have to know what a command is, and if our "simple" launcher exposes it to them, we've lost one battle right there. You can't make it hidden either, since then it isn't clear what exactly will be done, which is also bad design. With present and past Alt+F2 implementations, you can always see what exactly will run when you press enter. The old Gnome-panel Run Command dialog was dedicated to this. The new Unity implementation does this and tells you visually what will happen by presenting the command as a search result. And, this would likely include removing the standard Alt+F2 access, since having both would be redundant and bloated. This brings back the whole problem that Unity's Alt+F2 solved in the first place. On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 12:54, Stefanos A. wrote: > 2011/9/28 Ian Santopietro > >> But Alt-F1 triggers keyboard navigation of the launcher, not the dash. >> You can switch directlyfrom there to either dash or the Run dialog without >> any other action. To open the dash, briefly press and release Super, which >> is a very different shortcut from Alt-F2, and not likely to be confused. It >> is true they look identical and serve very different functions, but be cause >> they are each accessed so differently, it's unlikely that a user would open >> one when they meant to open the other. >> > You are right, please replace all my "Alt-F1" references by "Super". That's > what you get for writing without coffee in the morning. > > As for it being unlikely, I'd argue that it isn't. There are many times > where I hit Super only to decide I'd rather enter a command rather than > launch an application. Right now it's impossible to mode-switch easily, > because you have to close and reopen the Dash. This fells ugly. > >> And one might use "killall Thunderbird" to terminate Thunderbird if it >> freezes. It was a rhetorical example, but the point is that sometimes it is >> useful to run a command without opening a terminal, particularly if you >> would then immediately close the terminal. >> > Indeed, which is why I use the Alt-F2 prompt. What I am arguing for is a > way to access Alt-F2 functionality from the main Dash. Several ways were > presented. My favourite so far: Enter key launches application (as now); > Ctrl+Enter interprets the text as a command. > > Simple and intuitive. > -- Ian Santopietro *Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html* "Eala Earendel enlga beorohtast Ofer middangeard monnum sended" Pa gur yv y porthaur? Public GPG key (RSA): http://keyserver.ubuntu.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x412F52DB1BBF1234 ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Dash search vs Alt+F2 in 11.10
2011/9/28 Ian Santopietro > It is simple, but it isn't intuitive. > > Pressing enter (in combination with any other key) indicates that you want > to do an action with the item selected on the screen. We don't want the dash > to search commands, as this is not end-user friendly. A new user should > never have to know what a command is, and if our "simple" launcher exposes > it to them, we've lost one battle right there. > In the Ctrl+Enter suggestion, the Dash will work exactly as before (no "searching commands"). It will function identically to the current implementation, visually and functionally, with a single difference: Ctrl+Enter will execute the search string directly as a command. New users won't be confused, as nothing will change with regards to them. Advanced users won't be annoyed by closing and reopening the Dash when switching between searching applications and executing commands. I'm not saying this is the best approach, just a good middle ground between the various suggestions in this thread. In fact, the best approach I've ever seen is the one taken by Gnome Do: one of the search results it displays is "execute command in terminal". This combines the current Dash functionality (searching applications) with Alt-F2 seamlessly and expands on it by opening a terminal window automatically. Since this option is usually displayed last, new users aren't confused (since the first 1 or 2 options almost always contain what they were searching for) and advanced users are not annoying (since they can press "up" and "enter" to execute the command directly). Maybe something similar could be implemented in the Dash? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Dash search vs Alt+F2 in 11.10
Den 28. sep. 2011 20:54, skrev Stefanos A.: As for it being unlikely, I'd argue that it isn't. There are many times where I hit Super only to decide I'd rather enter a command rather than launch an application. Right now it's impossible to mode-switch easily, because you have to close and reopen the Dash. This fells ugly. No, that is not true. If you have the Dash open, then you can press alt+f2 to switch to the normal alt+f2 view. Contrary, if you've pressed alt+f2, but should've pressed super, you can just press tab. This makes sense. It should be easy to go from alt+f2 to the Dash, but require something more explicit the other way around. Jo-Erlend Schinstad ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Dash search vs Alt+F2 in 11.10
Good point, Ian. I am convinced now that the dash must not absorb the functionality of the run dialog. The dash should remain user-friendly, especially for new users. However, the behaviour I wanted would still be available through lenses? I don't know much about Unity lenses, and at first I thought it was the name for the transparent effect of the dash's background :$ 2011/9/28 Ian Santopietro : > It is simple, but it isn't intuitive. > Pressing enter (in combination with any other key) indicates that you want > to do an action with the item selected on the screen. We don't want the dash > to search commands, as this is not end-user friendly. A new user should > never have to know what a command is, and if our "simple" launcher exposes > it to them, we've lost one battle right there. > You can't make it hidden either, since then it isn't clear what exactly will > be done, which is also bad design. With present and past Alt+F2 > implementations, you can always see what exactly will run when you press > enter. The old Gnome-panel Run Command dialog was dedicated to this. The new > Unity implementation does this and tells you visually what will happen by > presenting the command as a search result. > And, this would likely include removing the standard Alt+F2 access, since > having both would be redundant and bloated. This brings back the whole > problem that Unity's Alt+F2 solved in the first place. > > On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 12:54, Stefanos A. wrote: >> >> 2011/9/28 Ian Santopietro >>> >>> But Alt-F1 triggers keyboard navigation of the launcher, not the dash. >>> You can switch directlyfrom there to either dash or the Run dialog without >>> any other action. To open the dash, briefly press and release Super, which >>> is a very different shortcut from Alt-F2, and not likely to be confused. It >>> is true they look identical and serve very different functions, but be cause >>> they are each accessed so differently, it's unlikely that a user would open >>> one when they meant to open the other. >> >> You are right, please replace all my "Alt-F1" references by "Super". >> That's what you get for writing without coffee in the morning. >> >> As for it being unlikely, I'd argue that it isn't. There are many times >> where I hit Super only to decide I'd rather enter a command rather than >> launch an application. Right now it's impossible to mode-switch easily, >> because you have to close and reopen the Dash. This fells ugly. >>> >>> And one might use "killall Thunderbird" to terminate Thunderbird if it >>> freezes. It was a rhetorical example, but the point is that sometimes it is >>> useful to run a command without opening a terminal, particularly if you >>> would then immediately close the terminal. >> >> Indeed, which is why I use the Alt-F2 prompt. What I am arguing for is a >> way to access Alt-F2 functionality from the main Dash. Several ways were >> presented. My favourite so far: Enter key launches application (as now); >> Ctrl+Enter interprets the text as a command. >> Simple and intuitive. > > > -- > Ian Santopietro > > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > > "Eala Earendel enlga beorohtast > Ofer middangeard monnum sended" > > Pa gur yv y porthaur? > Public GPG key > (RSA): http://keyserver.ubuntu.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x412F52DB1BBF1234 > > ___ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Dash search vs Alt+F2 in 11.10
On 28 September 2011 15:52, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: > No, that is not true. If you have the Dash open, then you can press alt+f2 > to switch to the normal alt+f2 view. Contrary, if you've pressed alt+f2, but > should've pressed super, you can just press tab. This makes sense. It should > be easy to go from alt+f2 to the Dash, but require something more explicit > the other way around. Wow, I didn't know that Tab switched between lenses. That's awfully important to know if you're trying to navigate with only a keyboard. Too bad that didn't make into the Ubuntu Desktop Guide before string freeze. Jeremy ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] New proposal for Unity: Launcher and left of top panel (w/ mockups)
The idea of moving the BFB to the bottom left has been raised a few
times and it has certain advantages:
1. It's where users migrating from windows will expect it to be
2. As Stefanos said, it allows us to use screen corners for BFB, window
controls and panel menus.
However, a major advantage of the current implementation, which for me
personally outweighs the two advantages above (especially since 1 is a
short term advantage and does nothing for mac users) is that all of my
regularly used controls (Dash, launcher, window controls and window
menu) are in the top left quarter of my screen, reducing the amount I
have to move the mouse and speeding up working.
On Wed, 2011-09-07 at 10:45 +0300, Stefanos A. wrote:
> 2011/9/6 Eylem Koca
> Thank you for your comments! I too hope the design team will
> consider
> this for 12.04, even if it's not accepted as it is...
>
> @Stefanos
> I know what you're saying about the maximized-window control
> buttons,
> and the problem is partly because they're hidden when cursor
> is not on
> top panel.
>
>
> No, not really. Hiding the window controls along with the menu makes
> sense (although I don't really agree with hiding anything at all, but
> that's another discussion entirely).
>
> That is
> why in my proposal, I bring the buttons back. This way, they
> should be
> just as easy to hit as they are for un-maximized windows.
>
>
> My point was that closing maximized windows should be easier than
> unmaximized windows (why? Because we can, given the current design).
>
>
> I know you can invoke the Dash with the Super (Meta) key but
> you can
> close a window with Alt-F4 as well :) My intention is not to
> throw
> back a key combination to you. The main reason I keep coming
> back with
> design ideas like this is because the screen corner is
> extremely
> important and from a design perspective, you have to match
> that
> strategic location with an equally important functionality. Is
> Unity,
> and thus Ubuntu, about "closing maximized windows". I hope
> not. It
> should be about "starting applications, opening up to the rest
> of the
> world, etc. etc."
>
>
> Just to throw more oil into the fire, Windows (XP, Vista, 7) manage to
> make both the launcher ('start menu'), window controls *and* menu for
> maximized windows and the "show desktop" action equally usable, by
> distributing each action to a different corner of the screen. Unity
> has a similar core idea but uses a slightly different arrengement:
>
>
> - in Natty, it distributed the system menu, the BFB and the trash icon
> to the corners.
> - in Oneiric, it distributes the system menu, the window controls and
> the trash icon to the corners.
>
>
> Note that (unlike windows) we still have an unused corner (bottom
> right on the default desktop).
>
>
> Personally, I believe that the trash icon is given undue attention in
> this design. It offers three-fold functionality: drag&drop to delete
> items, drag&drop to eject usb sticks, right click to empty trash. The
> first two can be performed in simpler ways (e.g. right click the item
> in question and select 'delete' or 'eject'). The latter requires the
> trash icon but does not really require a whole hot corner to perform
> (how often do you empty trash, compared to launching applications or
> closing windows)?
>
>
> What could be done? Two suggestions:
> 1. relegate the trash icon to a regular icon in the launcher, or
> 2. show the trash icon on demand at the bottom-right corner. In other
> words, when the user drags a deletable/ejectable item, the trash icons
> appears automatically as a drop target. (I like this idea, since it's
> symmetric with the current behavior of the launcher).
>
>
> In both cases, the bottom-left corner can be reused for more important
> functionality, such as a BFB or a 'show desktop' icon.
>
>
> Of course, moving the BFB to the bottom-left corner would bring up
> questions regarding the layout of the launcher (i.e. all items on top
> and the BFB at the bottom?) This is something that merits discussion.
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