[Ayatana] make adding ppas easier

[Christian Rupp]

For newbies its very hard to install their first ppa and also if you 
know the way it takes you some time to install a ppa. Why don't just 
enable a short link like href="ppa://ppa:matthaeus123/mrw-gimp-svn" 
which addes this ppa automatically after asking whether you trust this 
source and entering your 
password.
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Re: [Ayatana] make adding ppas easier

[Kévin PEIGNOT]

I don't agree. PPA should be used only to install unstable / unsupported
features. I think the problem is that a lot of very good programs aren't in
the default repository and need to be installed via PPA.

PPA installation shouldn't be too easy for newbies, because it can be risky
for their system, even if they don't realize that.

Kévin

2011/9/4 Christian Rupp 

> **
> For newbies its very hard to install their first ppa and also if you know
> the way it takes you some time to install a ppa. Why don't just enable a
> short link like href="ppa://ppa:matthaeus123/mrw-gimp-svn" which addes this
> ppa automatically after asking whether you trust this source and entering
> your 
> password.
>
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>


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Re: [Ayatana] make adding ppas easier

[Eylem Koca]

Exactly.

On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 8:04 AM, Kévin PEIGNOT  wrote:
> ... I think the problem is that a lot of very good programs aren't in
> the default repository and need to be installed via PPA.

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Re: [Ayatana] make adding ppas easier

[Kévin PEIGNOT]

Here is another question. How to convince app devellopers to want
integration of their applications in the repos. I know there is a project
for that (it's the next step after the website to integrate commercial app).
But I can't find it again.

Kévin

2011/9/4 Eylem Koca 

> Exactly.
>
> On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 8:04 AM, Kévin PEIGNOT 
> wrote:
> > ... I think the problem is that a lot of very good programs aren't in
> > the default repository and need to be installed via PPA.
>



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Re: [Ayatana] make adding ppas easier

[a.gra...@gmail.com]

Hi,

On 4 September 2011 14:04, Kévin PEIGNOT  wrote:
> I don't agree. PPA should be used only to install unstable / unsupported
> features. I think the problem is that a lot of very good programs aren't in
> the default repository and need to be installed via PPA.
>
> PPA installation shouldn't be too easy for newbies, because it can be risky
> for their system, even if they don't realize that.

when you're making something difficoult for the end user by design,
you're limiting his freedom.
Just advise the user that enabling/adding a PPA could make the system
unstable and the user will be able to choose.

-- 
Andrea Grandi - Nokia Qt Ambassador
website: http://www.andreagrandi.it

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[Ayatana] Balsamiq

[a.gra...@gmail.com]

Hi all,

thanks to a kind reply from Jono to a comment I did on one of his
posts, I discovered Balsamiq.
I installed it and tested a bit and later I discovered this:
http://www.mail-archive.com/launchpad-users@lists.launchpad.net/msg01068.html

Since I was going to use it to prepare some mockups for Unity-2d I did
think I could use it and I used the serial provided.
At the beginning it worked, telling me that the software was correctly
registered, then when I started it again it said my demo period was
expired and trying to use that serial again gave me an error: this
serial key has been blacklisted

Is the Balsamiq offer no more valid for Ubuntu contributors? Do we
have an update serial to use?

Thanks for your help!

-- 
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website: http://www.andreagrandi.it

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Re: [Ayatana] make adding ppas easier

[Florian Diesch]

Christian Rupp  writes:

> For newbies its very hard to install their first ppa and also if you
> know the way it takes you some time to install a ppa. 

Just add 'ppa:diesch/testing' (or whatever PPA you want) using the Software
Sources dialog.


> Why don't just enable a short link like
> href="ppa://ppa:matthaeus123/mrw-gimp-svn" which addes this ppa
> automatically after asking whether you trust this source and entering
> your password

How would a newbie know if he could trust that source? Just clicking on
a link should not make you to answer such important technical questions.

Making people to use the Software Sources dialog teaches them where to
see what PPA are enabled and how to disable them. IMHO that's important for
usability.


   Florian
-- 
Indicator applet for Unity that provides the main menu of Gnome Classic:


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Re: [Ayatana] make adding ppas easier

[Stefanos A.]

2011/9/4 a.gra...@gmail.com 

> Hi,
>
> On 4 September 2011 14:04, Kévin PEIGNOT  wrote:
> > I don't agree. PPA should be used only to install unstable / unsupported
> > features. I think the problem is that a lot of very good programs aren't
> in
> > the default repository and need to be installed via PPA.
> >
> > PPA installation shouldn't be too easy for newbies, because it can be
> risky
> > for their system, even if they don't realize that.
>
> when you're making something difficoult for the end user by design,
> you're limiting his freedom.
> Just advise the user that enabling/adding a PPA could make the system
> unstable and the user will be able to choose.
>
> An even better solution would be to (a) check and warn whether a given PPA
is potentially dangerous to stability (e.g. because it modifies system
libraries) and (b) make rollbacks simple in case of system damage.
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Re: [Ayatana] make adding ppas easier

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad]

There are a few things we need before we can consider making adding PPAs
easy. First of all, we need an easy way to limit what packages can be
upgraded/installed from that PPA. If you add a PPA because you want a
set of fancy wallpapers, for instance, then that PPA should not be able
to push a patched SSHd. It should only be able to add and update
wallpapers. Nothing else. I think those kinds of PPAs are ticking bombs
right now. How this should be done, I don't know.

The second thing we need, is a peer review system and vouchers for PPAs.
This is also challenging, of course, because the majority is not always
right. If the "peers" would give the PPA a good review because the
wallpapers are nice, but didn't have a look at what packages it
contains, install scripts, etc, then it would be better to not have a
peer review at all. Perhaps only Ubuntu Members would get a vote,
following the assumption that all members would know how important this is?

So, no, there are too many unresolved issues to make adding PPAs a
matter of simple point and clicks. This is why it was removed/hidden
from apturl.

Jo-Erlend Schinstad

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Re: [Ayatana] make adding ppas easier

[Shane Fagan]

add-apt-repository does it pretty easily.

On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Christian Rupp  wrote:
> For newbies its very hard to install their first ppa and also if you know
> the way it takes you some time to install a ppa. Why don't just enable a
> short link like href="ppa://ppa:matthaeus123/mrw-gimp-svn" which addes this
> ppa automatically after asking whether you trust this source and entering
> your password.
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[Ayatana] How do I get to a lense without a mouse?

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad]

We used to be able to use super+a to open the Applications lense and
super+f to go to the Files and Folders lense. That appears to no longer
be functional. So I press super to open the dash and I search, which
seems to only show opened files. I can search for applications by
tapping super, arrow down twice, then right arrow twice, enter and then
search. It is very cumbersome, but it does work. The same goes for the
Files and Folders lense.

But I have no idea how to get to the Music lense... at all. Some time
ago, I proposed that we should use alt+num to switch between lenses,
since that's how other tabbed interfaces work and it will not interfere
with anything. Any chance of that happening in 11.10? Because not being
able to comfortably use the keyboard, is a seriously annoying regression
from 11.04.

Jo-Erlend Schinstad

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Re: [Ayatana] make adding ppas easier

[zekopeko]

I would really like it if people would stop using "freedom of choice"
as a club to bash any design decision that has to be made. It is a
balancing act instead. Too little choice and you get GNOME 3.0, too
much choice and you get the mess that is KDE.

Forcing users to make a choice for which they have insufficient
information and/or expertise is a complete design cop-out.

This whole PPA situation should be fixed by allowing STABLE FEATURE
updates of GUI applications in stable Ubuntu releases that are
reviewed by Ubuntu developers and volunteers. Basically make a Mac App
Store. Those applications should also be packaged by the developers
themselves. Statically link them if you need newer libraries for your
app.
This would also fix the LTS releases because they wouldn't get
obsolete so quickly.

Upgrading my entire system so that I can get newer
applications/features is ridiculous, as is adding 3rd party PPAs that
might upgrade packages I have no interest in upgrading and in the
process possibly breaking my entire system.

On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 3:12 PM, a.gra...@gmail.com  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 4 September 2011 14:04, Kévin PEIGNOT  wrote:
>> I don't agree. PPA should be used only to install unstable / unsupported
>> features. I think the problem is that a lot of very good programs aren't in
>> the default repository and need to be installed via PPA.
>>
>> PPA installation shouldn't be too easy for newbies, because it can be risky
>> for their system, even if they don't realize that.
>
> when you're making something difficoult for the end user by design,
> you're limiting his freedom.
> Just advise the user that enabling/adding a PPA could make the system
> unstable and the user will be able to choose.
>
> --
> Andrea Grandi - Nokia Qt Ambassador
> website: http://www.andreagrandi.it
>
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Re: [Ayatana] make adding ppas easier

[a.gra...@gmail.com]

Hi,

On 4 September 2011 17:57, zekopeko  wrote:
> I would really like it if people would stop using "freedom of choice"
> as a club to bash any design decision that has to be made. It is a
> balancing act instead. Too little choice and you get GNOME 3.0, too
> much choice and you get the mess that is KDE.

dear Zekopeko, maybe we can have different points of view, but it's
not polite at all to say that someone should stop expressing his own
hopinion.

> Forcing users to make a choice for which they have insufficient
> information and/or expertise is a complete design cop-out.
>
> This whole PPA situation should be fixed by allowing STABLE FEATURE
> updates of GUI applications in stable Ubuntu releases that are

maybe we could improve the PPA structure, don't you think?
I make an example.

At the moment everyone can publish packages to Launchpad PPA and this
is good, BUT
We should make difference from PPA to PPA. What I mean is that there
should be people who test PPAs and express a vote to promote as
"stable".

It's a similar thing there was in maemo-extras / maemo-extras-devel
repository of N900.
Developers publish a package, it stays in -devel until it has been
tested enough.

When the package is considered stable it's promoted to the
maemo-extras and end-user is quite safe to use it without the risk to
break something.

Once we have those PPAs marked correctly we can let the user to easily
install the safer one and make the procedure more complicated for
-devel one.

I think this could work.

-- 
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website: http://www.andreagrandi.it

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Re: [Ayatana] Thunderbird needs tighter panel integration

[Kévin PEIGNOT]

I totally agree. But this have been discussed times ago (with evolution) and
it seems not every one want this.

2011/9/3 Carl Ansell 

> At present, the only use for the mail icon in the panel is to set up
> thunderbird (for email anyway). Once an account has been set up, it would be
> useful for thunderbird to check emails in the background, and turn blue when
> new emails are available. This would mean the user does not need to keep
> thunderbird open to check emails and justify the use of a mail icon in the
> panel.
>
> It should at least list the accounts that have already been set up, rather
> than just showing 'set up mail'.
>
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Re: [Ayatana] make adding ppas easier

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad]

Den 04. sep. 2011 17:57, skrev zekopeko:
> I would really like it if people would stop using "freedom of choice"
> as a club to bash any design decision that has to be made. It is a
> balancing act instead. Too little choice and you get GNOME 3.0, too
> much choice and you get the mess that is KDE.
>
> Forcing users to make a choice for which they have insufficient
> information and/or expertise is a complete design cop-out.

What exactly are you talking about? I don't understand.
> This whole PPA situation should be fixed by allowing STABLE FEATURE
> updates of GUI applications in stable Ubuntu releases that are
> reviewed by Ubuntu developers and volunteers. Basically make a Mac App
> Store. Those applications should also be packaged by the developers
> themselves. Statically link them if you need newer libraries for your
> app.
> This would also fix the LTS releases because they wouldn't get
> obsolete so quickly.
>
> Upgrading my entire system so that I can get newer
> applications/features is ridiculous, as is adding 3rd party PPAs that
> might upgrade packages I have no interest in upgrading and in the
> process possibly breaking my entire system.
>
None of that is a real issue in Ubuntu and never has been. A PPA is a
folder on a website with signed content that your system subscribes to
and asks you to download. Or you can ask it to download it
automatically. In reality, it is quite similar to using an RSS feed to
grab the latest podcast. Just like any podcast, you can download the
file and play it without using the automated downloads. The same goes
for PPAs. You can download the deb and install it. You don't _have_ to
add the PPA.

Why are you against that? I really don't understand. You're saying that
the "podcasts" should be built into the operatig system and that
third-parties should not be allowed to distribute software themselves?
Google, for instance, would have to seek permission from Canonical
before they could release a new version of Chrome?

I don't understand why you would want this scenario. Companies should
obviously be allowed to distribute their own software. If anything, I
think PPAs should be used much more often and they should provide
features to allow paying for support of free software.

Jo-Erlend Schinstad






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Re: [Ayatana] Thunderbird needs tighter panel integration

[a.gra...@gmail.com]

Hi,

On 4 September 2011 18:12, Kévin PEIGNOT  wrote:
> I totally agree. But this have been discussed times ago (with evolution) and
> it seems not every one want this.
>
> 2011/9/3 Carl Ansell 
>>
>> At present, the only use for the mail icon in the panel is to set up
>> thunderbird (for email anyway). Once an account has been set up, it would be
>> useful for thunderbird to check emails in the background, and turn blue when
>> new emails are available. This would mean the user does not need to keep
>> thunderbird open to check emails and justify the use of a mail icon in the
>> panel.

it's a nice idea, we could have an option for that. Probably other
user will prefer to have a Unity-launcher icon that does it, but it's
better to have both and let the user decide which one to enable. What
do you think about?

-- 
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website: http://www.andreagrandi.it

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Re: [Ayatana] Thunderbird needs tighter panel integration

[Carl Ansell]

Surely this could be added as optional at the very least. The old 'me 
menu' was very different to the new 'messaging menu', maybe people would 
feel differently about it with the new layout and the combination of the 
2 menus.


It kinda misses the point of being a 'messaging menu', when in fact it 
does not control email messaging. The icon is an envelope, which many 
users would associate with email messages as opposed to IM.


On 04/09/11 17:12, Kévin PEIGNOT wrote:
I totally agree. But this have been discussed times ago (with 
evolution) and it seems not every one want this.


2011/9/3 Carl Ansell >


At present, the only use for the mail icon in the panel is to set
up thunderbird (for email anyway). Once an account has been set
up, it would be useful for thunderbird to check emails in the
background, and turn blue when new emails are available. This
would mean the user does not need to keep thunderbird open to
check emails and justify the use of a mail icon in the panel.

It should at least list the accounts that have already been set
up, rather than just showing 'set up mail'.

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Re: [Ayatana] Thunderbird needs tighter panel integration

[Carl Ansell]

On 04/09/11 17:39, a.gra...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi,

On 4 September 2011 18:12, Kévin PEIGNOT  wrote:

I totally agree. But this have been discussed times ago (with evolution) and
it seems not every one want this.

2011/9/3 Carl Ansell

At present, the only use for the mail icon in the panel is to set up
thunderbird (for email anyway). Once an account has been set up, it would be
useful for thunderbird to check emails in the background, and turn blue when
new emails are available. This would mean the user does not need to keep
thunderbird open to check emails and justify the use of a mail icon in the
panel.

it's a nice idea, we could have an option for that. Probably other
user will prefer to have a Unity-launcher icon that does it, but it's
better to have both and let the user decide which one to enable. What
do you think about?

Exactly. Personally, I would want to use the messaging menu, as I feel 
this is what it is designed for, and would allow me to save space on the 
launcher for something else. However, I know others would prefer keeping 
it in the launcher.



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Re: [Ayatana] Thunderbird needs tighter panel integration

[zekopeko]

On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 6:48 PM, Carl Ansell  wrote:
> On 04/09/11 17:39, a.gra...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 4 September 2011 18:12, Kévin PEIGNOT  wrote:
>>>
>>> I totally agree. But this have been discussed times ago (with evolution)
>>> and
>>> it seems not every one want this.
>>>
>>> 2011/9/3 Carl Ansell

 At present, the only use for the mail icon in the panel is to set up
 thunderbird (for email anyway). Once an account has been set up, it
 would be
 useful for thunderbird to check emails in the background, and turn blue
 when
 new emails are available. This would mean the user does not need to keep
 thunderbird open to check emails and justify the use of a mail icon in
 the
 panel.
>>
>> it's a nice idea, we could have an option for that. Probably other
>> user will prefer to have a Unity-launcher icon that does it, but it's
>> better to have both and let the user decide which one to enable. What
>> do you think about?
>>
> Exactly. Personally, I would want to use the messaging menu, as I feel this
> is what it is designed for, and would allow me to save space on the launcher
> for something else. However, I know others would prefer keeping it in the
> launcher.
>

Why have the option at all? Thunderbird (or any e-mail client for that
matter) should continue to check for messages in the background
without having the main window open at all.
If there is a message you "blue" the messaging menu and add a badge to
the launcher if there is an icon in the launcher. Opening Thunderbird
via the Launcher or the messaging menu would simply clear the badge
and the blue envelope of the messaging menu.

Two things would be nice. A global DO NOT DISTURB mode and a option to
check for e-mail messages in the background if there is at least one
email account active.

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Re: [Ayatana] Thunderbird needs tighter panel integration

[Carl Ansell]

On 04/09/11 19:22, zekopeko wrote:

On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 6:48 PM, Carl Ansell  wrote:

On 04/09/11 17:39, a.gra...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi,

On 4 September 2011 18:12, Kévin PEIGNOTwrote:

I totally agree. But this have been discussed times ago (with evolution)
and
it seems not every one want this.

2011/9/3 Carl Ansell

At present, the only use for the mail icon in the panel is to set up
thunderbird (for email anyway). Once an account has been set up, it
would be
useful for thunderbird to check emails in the background, and turn blue
when
new emails are available. This would mean the user does not need to keep
thunderbird open to check emails and justify the use of a mail icon in
the
panel.

it's a nice idea, we could have an option for that. Probably other
user will prefer to have a Unity-launcher icon that does it, but it's
better to have both and let the user decide which one to enable. What
do you think about?


Exactly. Personally, I would want to use the messaging menu, as I feel this
is what it is designed for, and would allow me to save space on the launcher
for something else. However, I know others would prefer keeping it in the
launcher.


Why have the option at all? Thunderbird (or any e-mail client for that
matter) should continue to check for messages in the background
without having the main window open at all.
If there is a message you "blue" the messaging menu and add a badge to
the launcher if there is an icon in the launcher. Opening Thunderbird
via the Launcher or the messaging menu would simply clear the badge
and the blue envelope of the messaging menu.

Two things would be nice. A global DO NOT DISTURB mode and a option to
check for e-mail messages in the background if there is at least one
email account active.

Really its checking emails in the background that I would want most of 
all, and when I heard about all of the work they had done integrating 
Thunderbird with Unity, I did think that this would be one of the things 
they had done.


I suppose you are right, an option wouldn't really be needed, though I 
don't know how hard it would be to implement something like this. The 
notify-osd bubble would also inform you of emails while the blue icon 
would remain until you read them. I honestly can't think why this hasn't 
been implemented already tbh.


I also like the DO NOT DISTURB idea, though I know a similar idea for 
the IM accounts was discussed and not implemented so I wouldn't hold my 
breath on that.


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Re: [Ayatana] Thunderbird needs tighter panel integration

[a.gra...@gmail.com]

Hi,

On 4 September 2011 20:38, Carl Ansell  wrote:
> Really its checking emails in the background that I would want most of all,
> and when I heard about all of the work they had done integrating Thunderbird
> with Unity, I did think that this would be one of the things they had done.

a technical question: how is Unity supposed to communicate with
Thunderbird? Does Thunderbird expose any d-bus methods?

Thanks.

-- 
Andrea Grandi - Nokia Qt Ambassador
website: http://www.andreagrandi.it

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Re: [Ayatana] Thunderbird needs tighter panel integration

[Carl Ansell]

I have absolutely no idea :(

All I know is that there is an extension added for Unity support that 
seemingly adds a number badge to the launcher icon. And isn't working 
for me. Maybe someone else can give a better answer.


On 04/09/11 20:31, a.gra...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi,

On 4 September 2011 20:38, Carl Ansell  wrote:

Really its checking emails in the background that I would want most of all,
and when I heard about all of the work they had done integrating Thunderbird
with Unity, I did think that this would be one of the things they had done.

a technical question: how is Unity supposed to communicate with
Thunderbird? Does Thunderbird expose any d-bus methods?

Thanks.




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Re: [Ayatana] make adding ppas easier

[Christian Rupp]

Maybe we should find a way in the middle. I mean: if you want a secure 
system you should make installation of ppas harder. If you want a system 
which can be easily extented and is very end-user friendly you need a 
easier setup for ppas. So wouldn't it best to check the ppas and give 
them different rights. And the checked ppas get an "easy to add link".
An other solution is updating software more often by the official 
sources and providing a better structure to add new programs and 
commercial content which is free, cause it's strange to find programs 
for $0.00 at the to buy section.



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Re: [Ayatana] make adding ppas easier

[Paul Sladen]

On Mon, 5 Sep 2011, Christian Rupp wrote:

Hello Christian,

> find a way in the middle. …checked ppas get an "easy to add link".

Indeed, at the moment any PPA can provide (and override) any package
in the system.  Separating out archives that can provide core system
infrastructure, from "leaf-node" PPAs providing add-on functionality
would probably enable much of what you're after.

This could be done with signing keys; large organisations (clusters,
universities, corporates) who still want to override core
functionality locally could just add their own trusted keys to the
Ubuntu-derived system images they give users.

-Paul



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