Re: [Ayatana] VPN

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 15/06/10 07:37, Philipp Wendler wrote:
> So I definitely would like to have an easy way to start a VPN
> connection (directly in the indicator). It is like this even on my
> cellphone, which has very limited screen space. But it would be ok for
> me if the VPN options are only shown if a VPN connection has been
> configured.

Yes, I agree that displaying *configured* VPN's in the indicator is
appropriate, leaving VPN setup to the network settings interface which
is currently being designed.

Mark



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Re: [Ayatana] How do I know when I'm connected to the network successfully?

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 15/06/10 02:09, Tyler Brainerd wrote:
>
> All the discussion of it I've seen to date has been netbook
> focused.  I'm interested to hear from someone at Canonical about
> desktop .
>
>
> Scott K
>
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Networking
> That's why I quoted from this page. It states fairly clearly that they
> are starting with the netbook edition, but it's the beginnings for all
> of ubuntu.
>

That's correct - we would like to use the new UI with connection manager
on the netbook edition for 10.10 and with the desktop edition for 11.04.
Of course, there's a lot of work to do to make it work to the required
standard, but we're completely committed to getting that work done.

It would be great to have Kubuntu along each step of the way, though
it's a Kubuntu decision if they want to make the switch it will be
easier for them to benefit from work being done elsewhere in Ubuntu if
they do so. The network indicator itself should be easy to embrace, what
may be more difficult is the network settings interface now being designed.

Hope that helps.

Mark


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Re: [Ayatana] What do to about right-clicking on the indicator-applet?

[Jarlath Reidy]

When I'm teaching people how to use computers - I tell them to think of the
right button as the 'menu button' (the word *context* is off-putting to
many).

This drastically improves their ability to interact with the desktop and
predict what behaviour is expected of them. It makes sense to them and it's
consistent; left button to 'activate' things, right to 'operate'. They
generally learn faster then as operations like copy / paste become
discoverable. *(The only thing that catches them out is when to single-click
and when to double-click, but explaining the difference between the
file-manager, desktop, web-browser and toolbars etc comes later. )*

Having a different menu for each button seems to fall between two lines of
thinking and personally, I get caught out all the time by the current setup
- I can't remember which button to click to get the menu I want because to
me there is no sense to it. I can't make a distinction between the two menus
without getting very anal and that's not a good thing for users in general I
believe, assuming I'm not very alone of course.
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Re: [Ayatana] Farewell to the notification area

[Kristoffer Lundén]

2010/6/16 Conscious User 

>
> > Plus, with this mockup, you need an inidicator icon/menu for each
> > class of application that might put things in the notification area?
>
> No. Just for the corner cases that cannot use libappindicator and
> never will, like Wine and Java. Are there any other besides those
> two?
>
>
Well, any closed but not replaceable application that can't or won't adapt,
as well as any open application that has yet to be fixed. The latter should
hopefully disappear over time (but how much time?), the former also goes
into the "never will "category for the purpose of this discussion at least.
Some software in use may not even have developers or even code any more.

I think the way forward is to fix all apps that are possible, via bug
reports and patches, and replace the rest with good alternatives over time.

I don't think the way forward is to sabotage a user experience because they
need (or even want to) use applications which can not yet be replaced, or at
least yet have to receive a patch.

I think that easy ways to conform and pointing out the benefit of belonging
should be enough "pressure" to adapt without actively breaking applications,
and probably just about as fast.

/ K
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Re: [Ayatana] Farewell to the notification area

[Scott Ritchie]

On 04/25/2010 04:04 PM, Marc Deslauriers wrote:
> On Sun, 2010-04-25 at 19:28 -0300, Paulo J. S. Silva wrote:
>> I do believe that the best balance would be to prompt the user in
>> specific moments (log-out, before suspend/lock) with a dialog that has
>> as default option to apply the updates. The tricky part here is that
>> many people are just leaving their computer on all the time and they
>> are not there when the computer sleeps or lock screen to confirm the
>> update.
>>
>> Actually I got a proposal: present the update dialog at
>> log-out/automatic suspend/lock-screen. The user can ignore (for
>> example if he/she is not there). If the user ignores it for more than
>> a certain amount of time (for example a week) present a notification
>> at login/awake/unlock that the system will apply the security update
>> at next log-out/etc (or that the user can apply it right away if
>> he/she wants).
>>
> 
> I think this is sure-fire way to make sure the updates _never_ get
> installed. On laptops, when people want to turn off or suspend, they
> want it to do so immediately, not after 10 minutes of security updates.
> I'm pretty sure the success rate of this type of prompt would be even
> lower than the blinking notification area.
> 

Yet other operating systems have found it useful to have a "shutdown
after updates install" feature, which is functionally the same.  Perhaps
there is some merit in simply doing both - pop under update manager, and
prompt them again when they shut down if they closed update manager.

Thanks,
Scott Ritchie

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Re: [Ayatana] Farewell to the notification area

[Conscious User]

> Well, any closed but not replaceable application that can't or won't
> adapt, as well as any open application that has yet to be fixed. The
> latter should hopefully disappear over time (but how much time?), the
> former also goes into the "never will "category for the purpose of
> this discussion at least. Some software in use may not even have
> developers or even code any more.

> I think the way forward is to fix all apps that are possible, via bug
> reports and patches, and replace the rest with good alternatives over
> time.

> I don't think the way forward is to sabotage a user experience because
> they need (or even want to) use applications which can not yet be
> replaced, or at least yet have to receive a patch.
> 
> I think that easy ways to conform and pointing out the benefit of
> belonging should be enough "pressure" to adapt without actively
> breaking applications, and probably just about as fast.


"Breaking" is too strong of a word. Putting Wine/Java icons in a
separate window or indicator menu would make them suboptimal,
sure, but still fully functional.

So the question is: can Wine/Java apps be considered cornercase-y
enough for this sub-optimality to be accepted?




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Re: [Ayatana] Farewell to the notification area

[Luke Benstead]

On 16 June 2010 12:28, Conscious User  wrote:

>
>
> > Well, any closed but not replaceable application that can't or won't
> > adapt, as well as any open application that has yet to be fixed. The
> > latter should hopefully disappear over time (but how much time?), the
> > former also goes into the "never will "category for the purpose of
> > this discussion at least. Some software in use may not even have
> > developers or even code any more.
>
> > I think the way forward is to fix all apps that are possible, via bug
> > reports and patches, and replace the rest with good alternatives over
> > time.
>
> > I don't think the way forward is to sabotage a user experience because
> > they need (or even want to) use applications which can not yet be
> > replaced, or at least yet have to receive a patch.
> >
> > I think that easy ways to conform and pointing out the benefit of
> > belonging should be enough "pressure" to adapt without actively
> > breaking applications, and probably just about as fast.
>
>
> "Breaking" is too strong of a word. Putting Wine/Java icons in a
> separate window or indicator menu would make them suboptimal,
> sure, but still fully functional.
>
> So the question is: can Wine/Java apps be considered cornercase-y
> enough for this sub-optimality to be accepted?
>
>
Well, I don't think that's the question at all. We already have a
near-optimal solution to this in sticking the old-style notification area
alongside the new indicator applet. An optimal one would be some kind of
indicator that gave good UX and integrated nicely with the indicator applet.


The question is more, "how can we fix this to provide the best user
experience?", rather than than "how many people will be affected by us
implementing a bad user experience (moving to a window)?" We should be
trying to improve the situation, not make it worse for the people that do
use Wine and Java apps.

Luke.

P.S. Scott has the stats somewhere, a very large portion of Ubuntu users use
Wine, add on Java users to that and we are talking a substantial portion of
our userbase. Granted they won't all be running apps that create tray icons
though but that's almost impossible to quantify.
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Re: [Ayatana] Sound Menu

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Tyler Brainerd wrote on 12/05/10 02:48:
> 
> Looking at the mockups for the new SoundMenu design
> , which looks great, my one concern
> is for consistency. Right now, with all the new applets, we have a
> myriad of inconsistent behavior, and this will only worsen as we make
> things more complicated. For instance, in the mockups and in current
> use, we have toggles that, in some cases, add a left hand margin check
> mark, such as with the play button in rhythmbox applet, and in others,
> it changes the text, like in the current sound applet. I say get rid of
> the check mark, and make it change between play/pause, but looking at
> the mockups, this will only get worse.

Whether a menu item should change its text, or be a checkmark item, is a
more nuanced issue than the Gnome HIG lets on. I've written previously
about the case of the sound menu's "Mute"/"Unmute" item.
 As for Rhythmbox, I don't know of
anyone outside of Gnome who thinks it's a good idea for it to have a
"Play" checkmark item instead of "Play"/"Pause".

>Can we please discuss specific
> ruling functions in these applets so we don't have a full on widget on
> the panel?

I don't know what you mean by a "ruling function". Can you elaborate?

>Currently, we only have Vertical layered controls. Each
> vertical row contains one function, and ought to be indicated in
> consistent ways (i.e., the triangles for running programs, the dots for
> status, the check for play/pause, sometimes the icon changes...) and I
> think its going to mess up that consistency with adding horizontal
> functions as well. part of the reason these applets are great is the
> ability to use pretty fast keyboard shortcuts to control things, and
> being the literally every single one so far has only vertical, lets not
> add the horizontal (i'm referring specifically to the next and previous
> buttons on either side of the play button).

In the status menus, *most* elements will be vanilla vertical menu
items. But standard menus have included occasional horizontal elements
for decades -- from color swatch submenus in Amiga applications in the
late 1980s, through to the Label section of the Mac Finder's "File" menu
since 2003, and Empathy's "Insert Smiley" submenu in Ubuntu circa 2009.

If there is any menu item that is not obviously accessible with the
keyboard (either in the specification, or the implementation), please
report a bug about it.

> After the rows, we really need to get the indications cleaned up. Lets
> make some firm decisions about what means 'This program is open!' what
> means 'this feature is on/off' and what doesn't, in all the menus. The
> mockups show no check marks, thats good. Get rid of all of them, unless
> actual indicating is needed (like the status selector).
>...

Apart from Rhythmbox's "Play" item, do you know of any menu items that
have checkmarks and shouldn't?

- -- 
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/
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Re: [Ayatana] Farewell to the notification area

[Conscious User]

> Well, I don't think that's the question at all. We already have a
> near-optimal solution to this in sticking the old-style notification
> area alongside the new indicator applet. An optimal one would be some
> kind of indicator that gave good UX and integrated nicely with the
> indicator applet. 

> The question is more, "how can we fix this to provide the best user
> experience?", rather than than "how many people will be affected by us
> implementing a bad user experience (moving to a window)?" We should be
> trying to improve the situation, not make it worse for the people that
> do use Wine and Java apps.


Wait, I think you and Jeremy are missing my point. I'm not proposing a
separate window or a "Wine indicator" as an attempt to get rid of the
notification area at all costs, even when it's the best possible
solution. It's quite the opposite: I do *not* believe it's the best
possible solution and I proposed the previous mockup because I think it
can be an *improvement* over it.

My previous post referred to the fact that the inability to patch Wine
applications makes impossible to have an optimal solution (using
libappindicator), so we *will* end up with a sub-optimal one. That does
not mean that *any* sub-optimal solution, like keeping the current
notification area, is equally acceptable. Some sub-optimal solutions are
better than others.

How? I'm not entirely sure and it's open for discussion. But here's a
small random example: one of the problems with the notification area is
that there is not a single, uniform system for keyboard shortcuts. With
indicators, you can have a single shortcut for accessing the
indicator-applet menu and navigate with arrows from there.

Now, pushing wine icons inside a "Wine indicator" wouldn't completely
get rid of the problem, but would allow us to have some sort of standard
like: inside the Wine indicator, we can navigate through the tray icons
there with the arrow keys and key Z simulates left-click, key X
simulates middle-click and key C simulates right-click.

Not the best possible example in the world, I know, but hopefully it
illustrates my point. :)




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[Ayatana] Is it just me, or are the Users and Groups dialogs horrible?

[Luke Benstead]

Hi all,

This has been bugging me for a little while. Most of the dialogs underneath
Preferences and Administration are generally pretty well laid out and
designed, the big glaring exception is the Users and Groups dialogs which
seem messy and confusing.

To better explain what I mean, I've created a wiki page here:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/UsersAndGroups

I think we can do far better than what's currently there.

Luke.
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Re: [Ayatana] What do to about right-clicking on the indicator-applet?

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 16/06/10 11:45, Jarlath Reidy wrote:
> Having a different menu for each button seems to fall between two
> lines of thinking and personally, I get caught out all the time by the
> current setup - I can't remember which button to click to get the menu
> I want because to me there is no sense to it. I can't make a
> distinction between the two menus without getting very anal and that's
> not a good thing for users in general I believe, assuming I'm not very
> alone of course.

That's why we only support left-click on the indicators. When in
gnome-panel, the right-click is used to manage panel features, but in
Unity there's no such capability, so it will feel cleaner.

Mark



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Re: [Ayatana] Sound Menu

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 16/06/10 12:19, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> >Currently, we only have Vertical layered controls. Each
> > vertical row contains one function, and ought to be indicated in
> > consistent ways (i.e., the triangles for running programs, the dots for
> > status, the check for play/pause, sometimes the icon changes...) and I
> > think its going to mess up that consistency with adding horizontal
> > functions as well. part of the reason these applets are great is the
> > ability to use pretty fast keyboard shortcuts to control things, and
> > being the literally every single one so far has only vertical, lets not
> > add the horizontal (i'm referring specifically to the next and previous
> > buttons on either side of the play button).
>
> In the status menus, *most* elements will be vanilla vertical menu
> items. But standard menus have included occasional horizontal elements
> for decades -- from color swatch submenus in Amiga applications in the
> late 1980s, through to the Label section of the Mac Finder's "File" menu
> since 2003, and Empathy's "Insert Smiley" submenu in Ubuntu circa 2009.

Because of the potential issues horizontal navigation introduces in
indicator menus, we have tried to take great care to specify the exact
behaviour whenever horizontal nav within a menu is a possibility. Please
do report cases that don't work, or which are not precisely and
completely spec'd.

Mark



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Re: [Ayatana] Is it just me, or are the Users and Groups dialogs horrible?

[Luke Benstead]

On 16 June 2010 14:54, Omer Akram  wrote:

> the 'about me' and 'users and groups' will be replaced by User accounts
> diagloue in maverick.
>
> On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 14:39 +0100, Luke Benstead wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > This has been bugging me for a little while. Most of the dialogs
> > underneath Preferences and Administration are generally pretty well
> > laid out and designed, the big glaring exception is the Users and
> > Groups dialogs which seem messy and confusing.
> >
> > To better explain what I mean, I've created a wiki page here:
> > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/UsersAndGroups
> >
> > I think we can do far better than what's currently there.
> >
> > Luke.
>

Awesome, I figured someone else would be working on it :)

Thanks,

Luke.
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Re: [Ayatana] Is it just me, or are the Users and Groups dialogs horrible?

[Allan Day]

> the 'about me' and 'users and groups' will be replaced by User
> accounts
> diagloue in maverick.

You mean the User Accounts dialog [1] that has been developed by Fedora?

This is going to be part of GNOME 3.0 (I think).

Allan

[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/UserAccountDialog

-- 
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IRC: aday on irc.gnome.org
Blog: http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/


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Re: [Ayatana] Redesigning the Ubuntu mouse cursor for simple notification of app attention

[Mark Shuttleworth]

Platform team is reviewing unclutter for inclusion in the default
install and session.

MPT, you might want to provide guidance on the upgrade experience - this
should be added to sessions after update.

Mark



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Re: [Ayatana] Is it just me, or are the Users and Groups dialogs horrible?

[Omer Akram]

Ya I love ubuntu for that. They pick what they think is good without caring
who has developed it. Others should do the same too :P

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Allan Day  wrote:

>
>
> > the 'about me' and 'users and groups' will be replaced by User
> > accounts
> > diagloue in maverick.
>
> You mean the User Accounts dialog [1] that has been developed by Fedora?
>
> This is going to be part of GNOME 3.0 (I think).
>
> Allan
>
> [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/UserAccountDialog
>
> --
> Jabber: allanpday AT gmail.com
> IRC: aday on irc.gnome.org
> Blog: http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/
>
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Application Menu bug consolidation and plans

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 14/06/10 18:59, nickwinl...@comcast.net wrote:
> My message is to the passive group or those who lurk.. Please note
> that ``duped'' isn't a word. That is what you all should work on
> fixing technologically and socially in the future, and not creating
> new branches or nodes from the same tree when the equilibrium of GTK
> Apps is pretty smooth, now.
>
> True versioning is ordering the submitted code by date, class and then
> a particular quality/component. Roman numeral I., roman numeral II.,
> and so forth. I would focus on sorting project material by
> mercurial/hg command-line, and also using something Web-based. There
> are some here who may think that creating that ayatana-dev list is a
> diversion.
>
> I think GTK Apps work is basic stuff and not too cyclical now, and if
> order is any new delineation occurring, people would be working on
> their versioned code on the side not without GTK Apps.  -Nick

What?


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Re: [Ayatana] Farewell to the notification area

[Kristoffer Lundén]

2010/6/16 Conscious User 

> "Breaking" is too strong of a word. Putting Wine/Java icons in a
> separate window or indicator menu would make them suboptimal,
> sure, but still fully functional.
>
>
It's the exact right word, since I wasn't talking about functionality. Rocks
are functional, but have a broken experience when it comes to building
houses, especially if you are used to a hammer. It may not be breaking
functionality (actually for icons that indicate status, it does that too
since it will be hidden) but it DOES break experience. Regressing to a
window in particular would be a horrible experience and totally
unacceptable. Cramming it into some kind of drop-down indicator not much
better, since a lot of apps communicate via these old indicators.

You do realize that moving these indicators to windows or menu in no way
unbreaks them, or makes them conform - they will stick out just as sorely,
or worse. Sticking them in a menu does not make them behave like the rest of
the desktop, so that effort is not accomplishing anything anyway. Just
because all top levels are then menus does not mean that the perceived
experience is any more coherent - Id argue that it's less coherent because
it's unexpected and still does not conform. I understand the initial
reaction to try and fit everything into the new menus, but in cases like
this, the result just ends up (potentially much) worse and still fool noone
that it's one system.

If we choose to use Wine or Java, we expect to step outside the blessed
sandbox - now let us do that, please.

So the question is: can Wine/Java apps be considered cornercase-y
> enough for this sub-optimality to be accepted?
>

No. Anecdotal, of course, but I know of exactly zero people on Ubuntu that
does not run at least Wine to get at least Spotify which relies somewhat
heavily on having a systray icon. At work, I also have a Java systray icon
from DavMail without which I could not practically use Ubuntu at work (not
impossible, just much harder, esp the calendar and Evolution is a crashing
joke). Though the DavMail icon would suffer less from being in a menu, it
does communicate that it's working etc by changing appearance so it's not
nice to hide it in menu or window, even though it's rarely important.

The solutions here are, for Spotify: get a Linux client or provide an
alternative - native app, plugin to Rhythmbox etc - there's a non-free
library and several open efforts. And for DavMail: if it's possible for Java
to use the menus in a nice way, bugfiling or even patches.

That's two examples that concern me. There's more. Steam, for instance, is a
huge thing when it comes to gaming in Wine, since a lot of games do work
well. They are rumored to release a Linux client though, and at that point
they could probably be petitioned to behave nicely.

Just don't break my desktop experience with what I feel is essentially
misdirected efforts, doing nothing to make the desktop more usable while
also not making it seem more coherent in any way.

Thanks.

/ K
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Re: [Ayatana] What do to about right-clicking on the indicator-applet?

[Kristoffer Lundén]

2010/6/16 Jarlath Reidy 

> *(The only thing that catches them out is when to single-click and when to
> double-click, but explaining the difference between the file-manager,
> desktop, web-browser and toolbars etc comes later. )*
>

When I realized that the difference is totally arbitrary I switched to
single click, and have been happy ever since. Just hope that we can get
Vista-like checkboxes for selections in file manager/desktop since that's
the only thing that is worse than double-click otherwise (see some other
thread on the list).

Funny though how we are moving towards single button, single click desktops,
while I used to laugh at the useless mac mouse... and now I don't. :)

/ K
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Re: [Ayatana] What do to about right-clicking on the indicator-applet?

[Anzan Hoshin Roshi]

On 16 June 2010 09:51, Mark Shuttleworth  wrote:

> On 16/06/10 11:45, Jarlath Reidy wrote:
> > Having a different menu for each button seems to fall between two
> > lines of thinking and personally, I get caught out all the time by the
> > current setup - I can't remember which button to click to get the menu
> > I want because to me there is no sense to it. I can't make a
> > distinction between the two menus without getting very anal and that's
> > not a good thing for users in general I believe, assuming I'm not very
> > alone of course.
>
> That's why we only support left-click on the indicators. When in
> gnome-panel, the right-click is used to manage panel features, but in
> Unity there's no such capability, so it will feel cleaner.
>
>
Mark, why will the panel not allow feature management?
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Re: [Ayatana] Farewell to the notification area

[Conscious User]

Kristoffer, calm down.

This is a brainstorm phase. None of the ideas proposed so far were
proposed in the most polished form possible, and there are many other
possible ideas to consider.

It is a little bit premature to conclude that keeping the notification
area exactly as it is for Wine apps is the best solution based on the
fact that you didn't like two crude, unpolished suggestions. Nobody ever
claimed that those suggestions are the only possible alternatives.

It might be that you are absolutely correct and keeping the area is the
best way. Who knows? But how to reach this conclusion before a more
exhaustive discussion on alternatives?

There is no evil conspiracy to break your desktop experience, just a
desire to see if there are any improvement possibilities that are being
overlooked.


Le mercredi 16 juin 2010 à 17:14 +0200, Kristoffer Lundén a écrit :


> It's the exact right word, since I wasn't talking about functionality.
> Rocks are functional, but have a broken experience when it comes to
> building houses, especially if you are used to a hammer. It may not be
> breaking functionality (actually for icons that indicate status, it
> does that too since it will be hidden) but it DOES break experience.
> Regressing to a window in particular would be a horrible experience
> and totally unacceptable. Cramming it into some kind of drop-down
> indicator not much better, since a lot of apps communicate via these
> old indicators.

> You do realize that moving these indicators to windows or menu in no
> way unbreaks them, or makes them conform - they will stick out just as
> sorely, or worse. Sticking them in a menu does not make them behave
> like the rest of the desktop, so that effort is not accomplishing
> anything anyway. Just because all top levels are then menus does not
> mean that the perceived experience is any more coherent - Id argue
> that it's less coherent because it's unexpected and still does not
> conform. I understand the initial reaction to try and fit everything
> into the new menus, but in cases like this, the result just ends up
> (potentially much) worse and still fool noone that it's one system.

> If we choose to use Wine or Java, we expect to step outside the
> blessed sandbox - now let us do that, please.

> No. Anecdotal, of course, but I know of exactly zero people on Ubuntu
> that does not run at least Wine to get at least Spotify which relies
> somewhat heavily on having a systray icon. At work, I also have a Java
> systray icon from DavMail without which I could not practically use
> Ubuntu at work (not impossible, just much harder, esp the calendar and
> Evolution is a crashing joke). Though the DavMail icon would suffer
> less from being in a menu, it does communicate that it's working etc
> by changing appearance so it's not nice to hide it in menu or window,
> even though it's rarely important.
>  
> The solutions here are, for Spotify: get a Linux client or provide an
> alternative - native app, plugin to Rhythmbox etc - there's a non-free
> library and several open efforts. And for DavMail: if it's possible
> for Java to use the menus in a nice way, bugfiling or even patches.
> 
> That's two examples that concern me. There's more. Steam, for
> instance, is a huge thing when it comes to gaming in Wine, since a lot
> of games do work well. They are rumored to release a Linux client
> though, and at that point they could probably be petitioned to behave
> nicely.
> 
> Just don't break my desktop experience with what I feel is essentially
> misdirected efforts, doing nothing to make the desktop more usable
> while also not making it seem more coherent in any way.




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Re: [Ayatana] dx-m-indicator-sound feedback

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Dylan McCall wrote on 14/05/10 18:19:
>...
> I was listening to the dx-m-indicator-sound session at UDS-M. I'm
> really looking forward to the work on this now! (Although I couldn't
> find the Gobby document). Kudos for using existing specifications (eg:
> MPRIS) for all of this! It goes a long way.
> 
> Has some decision been reached on how the master volume should work
> with multiple devices attached?

It's just a menu, it's not reinventing the audio system.

"The menu should give easiest access to the volume of the primary sound
output device and the primary sound input device. Other devices can be
accessed through the Sound Preferences window."


> For what it's worth, here's my opinion on where things should be:
>...

Those are some interesting ideas. I suggest pitching them to the
PulseAudio developers.

- -- 
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/
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Re: [Ayatana] File transfer dialog behaviour

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Jarlath Reidy wrote on 11/05/10 23:37:
>...
> I'm wondering if the current form of the file-transfer dialog is up for
> discussion. I wanted to dismiss this dialog (see attachment). I was
> fairly certain that the red X to the right would abort the copy
> operation, so I didn't click that.
>
> But what about the red x on the top left of the window? It could cancel
> the operation. Then I thought 'when I close nautilus, it doesn't delete
> all my files. It just dismisses that view of my filesystem.' - so it
> probably just closes the window without effecting the operation.
>...

To avoid that kind of confusion, a progress window -- a window that
embodies a task the computer is completing, and closes itself when done
- -- should not have a close button in its title bar at all.

The failure to systematically distinguish progress windows, dialogs, and
other window types is a long-standing design flaw in Gnome.

In 2008 I wrote a specification for Nautilus's progress window.


- -- 
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/
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Re: [Ayatana] Redesigning the Ubuntu mouse cursor for simple notification of app attention

[Greg K Nicholson]

On 16 June 2010 15:24, Mark Shuttleworth  wrote:
>
> Platform team is reviewing unclutter for inclusion in the default
> install and session.

\o/

(
Everyone:
Alt+F2, apt:unclutter
Alt+F2, unclutter
)

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Re: [Ayatana] Integrating Application Search & Install

[Frederik Nnaji]

>
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 21:45, Diego Moya  wrote:
>
>> If aiming for simplicity, I see how restricting search to just
>> applications can help. But when the user searches to retrieve
>> applications is because s/he don't know which application is the best
>> one to use for a given task, in which case it's highly valuable to
>> show all valid applications for that task, not just those installed.
>
>
fortunately, somebody took the initiative to code this obviously necessary
new menu, nearly exactly the way we discussed it in here:

https://launchpad.net/cardapio  (thanks to Jan-Christoph for the link :D )

anybody try this out yet?
They are also about to integrate Zeitgeist, so we can soon see most of the
functionality of GNOME Shell without the need for a "gnome shell --replace"
right inside Ubuntu ;)
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Re: [Ayatana] Redesigning the Ubuntu mouse cursor for simple notification of app attention

[Frederik Nnaji]

thx, Greg!
you added joy to my day with this one ;)

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 21:41, Greg K Nicholson  wrote:

> On 16 June 2010 15:24, Mark Shuttleworth  wrote:
> >
> > Platform team is reviewing unclutter for inclusion in the default
> > install and session.
>
> \o/
>
> (
> Everyone:
> Alt+F2, apt:unclutter
> Alt+F2, unclutter
> )
>

That simple? whow.
Thanks so much, everyone!
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Re: [Ayatana] Sound Menu

[Tyler Brainerd]

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 4:19 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Tyler Brainerd wrote on 12/05/10 02:48:
> >
> > Looking at the mockups for the new SoundMenu design
> > , which looks great, my one concern
> > is for consistency. Right now, with all the new applets, we have a
> > myriad of inconsistent behavior, and this will only worsen as we make
> > things more complicated. For instance, in the mockups and in current
> > use, we have toggles that, in some cases, add a left hand margin check
> > mark, such as with the play button in rhythmbox applet, and in others,
> > it changes the text, like in the current sound applet. I say get rid of
> > the check mark, and make it change between play/pause, but looking at
> > the mockups, this will only get worse.
>
> Whether a menu item should change its text, or be a checkmark item, is a
> more nuanced issue than the Gnome HIG lets on. I've written previously
> about the case of the sound menu's "Mute"/"Unmute" item.
>  As for Rhythmbox, I don't know of
> anyone outside of Gnome who thinks it's a good idea for it to have a
> "Play" checkmark item instead of "Play"/"Pause".
>
> >Can we please discuss specific
> > ruling functions in these applets so we don't have a full on widget on
> > the panel?
>
> I don't know what you mean by a "ruling function". Can you elaborate?
>
> >Currently, we only have Vertical layered controls. Each
> > vertical row contains one function, and ought to be indicated in
> > consistent ways (i.e., the triangles for running programs, the dots for
> > status, the check for play/pause, sometimes the icon changes...) and I
> > think its going to mess up that consistency with adding horizontal
> > functions as well. part of the reason these applets are great is the
> > ability to use pretty fast keyboard shortcuts to control things, and
> > being the literally every single one so far has only vertical, lets not
> > add the horizontal (i'm referring specifically to the next and previous
> > buttons on either side of the play button).
>
> In the status menus, *most* elements will be vanilla vertical menu
> items. But standard menus have included occasional horizontal elements
> for decades -- from color swatch submenus in Amiga applications in the
> late 1980s, through to the Label section of the Mac Finder's "File" menu
> since 2003, and Empathy's "Insert Smiley" submenu in Ubuntu circa 2009.
>
> If there is any menu item that is not obviously accessible with the
> keyboard (either in the specification, or the implementation), please
> report a bug about it.
>
> > After the rows, we really need to get the indications cleaned up. Lets
> > make some firm decisions about what means 'This program is open!' what
> > means 'this feature is on/off' and what doesn't, in all the menus. The
> > mockups show no check marks, thats good. Get rid of all of them, unless
> > actual indicating is needed (like the status selector).
> >...
>
> Apart from Rhythmbox's "Play" item, do you know of any menu items that
> have checkmarks and shouldn't?
>
> - --
> Matthew Paul Thomas
> http://mpt.net.nz/
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
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>


Thanks for responding. Several of the areas that I had issue with their
consistency have actually been cleaned up a bit since I first wrote this.

My concern is not with the current state, but primarily with the planned,
future interface design. There doesn't seem to be clear cut rules about what
symbols represent what state or control option. I'm not saying there are
huge issues at present, but rather, there isn't clear, foundational rules
about how to design the applets. I just think it would be beneficial to
write out a set of clear rules to be followed about making selections,
representing current states, and all that stuff.

again, not so much to correct the current, but to lay out rules of
consistency for the future.
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Re: [Ayatana] dx-m-indicator-sound feedback

[Frederik Nnaji]

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 16:48, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> It's just a menu, it's not reinventing the audio system.
>

..yet it's close to reinventing the audio backend's interface to the
technically unaware user.

"The menu should give easiest access to the volume of the primary sound
> output device and the primary sound input device. Other devices can be
> accessed through the Sound Preferences window."
> 
>

yeah, great ;) That helps keep things orderly.
Devices aside (OT anyway), how about treating applications like GlobalMenu
does?
When e.g. Totem is focused, why not focus primarily Totem's options in the
sound menu?

imagine the following scenario:
1. start a song in Rhythmbox
2. hide main Rhythmbox window with the proposed "hide" button
3. raise e.g. Abiword to compose text
4. access Sound Menu to change Rhythmboxes volume

The use case in which i would need a "main volume" slider is rather a
workaround for not knowing which app is disturbing.
For this we have the single sliders in "Applications" within Sound
Preferences.

Also, "Sound Preferences" is not a good name.

my thoughts, condensed:
* make Sound Menu behave like GlobalMenu
* give Sound Menu > Sound Preferences > Applications a more accessible
semantic path
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Re: [Ayatana] File transfer dialog behaviour

[Frederik Nnaji]

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 17:04, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> To avoid that kind of confusion, a progress window -- a window that
> embodies a task the computer is completing, and closes itself when done
> - -- should not have a close button in its title bar at all.
>

thank you. ditch the title bar, like Policykit does, is my suggestion.


> The failure to systematically distinguish progress windows, dialogs, and
> other window types is a long-standing design flaw in Gnome.
>

Yah,.. Many of these problems will automatically vanish with the advent of
CSD


> In 2008 I wrote a specification for Nautilus's progress window.
> 
>

nce!
you did that in '08 already?
the item's name shouldn't be in the title? why is that?
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Re: [Ayatana] File transfer dialog behaviour

[Frederik Nnaji]

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 00:29, Frederik Nnaji wrote:

>
>> In 2008 I wrote a specification for Nautilus's progress window.
>> 
>>
>
> nce!
> you did that in '08 already?
> the item's name shouldn't be in the title? why is that?
>

sorry about the last question, your spec is outstanding.. my bad.
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Re: [Ayatana] Make the progress bar more entertaining

[Frederik Nnaji]

Privet, Dima ;)

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 02:13, Dmitrijs Ledkovs
wrote:

> I like the idea but I really don't want to see "Ooops, spilt it" when
> I'm backing up an archive of all of my family photos. This doesn't
> describe operating system as reliable nor precise to me.
>

..that would be a public way of exposing design failures ;)
make it a feature!


> Tip of the day, similar to the ubiquity-slideshow might make sense.
>

Somewhere, perhaps. To overcome nonesense, let's consider making progress
windows more informative. Splash screens used to show us WHAT exactly is
loading/happening.
That was nice to watch and it was informative, unfortunately we don't see
that too often anymore..


> But I'd rather see everything so fast in ubuntu that I never need to
> stare at the progressbar and not be able to something else, e.g.
> software centre is non-blocking UI even when it is installing stuff
> you can do other things.
>

People make you wait while they do stuff for you, so will computers.
Greater speed, greater tasks. You will not get what you are wishing for, i'm
afraid.

Overall i conclude, progress windows have two main functions:

1. keep the dialog with the user alive
2. help the user understand what's going on

if they could reflect that more, i would be thankful.
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Re: [Ayatana] dx-m-indicator-sound feedback

[Dylan McCall]

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 3:18 PM, Frederik Nnaji
 wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 16:48, Matthew Paul Thomas 
> wrote:
>>
>> It's just a menu, it's not reinventing the audio system.

Ah, of course. Thanks :)

I was mainly worried that there _was_ reinvention going on, so I'm
happy to know that nothing goofy like that is in the plan.
I think I will chat with one of the PA guys, or find out more about
its master volume stuff. (Maybe it does something amazingly clever
that I don't know about). For now, though, I'm back to just looking
forward to that awesome spec being implemented.

>
> ..yet it's close to reinventing the audio backend's interface to the
> technically unaware user.
>>
>> "The menu should give easiest access to the volume of the primary sound
>> output device and the primary sound input device. Other devices can be
>> accessed through the Sound Preferences window."
>> 
>
> yeah, great ;) That helps keep things orderly.
> Devices aside (OT anyway), how about treating applications like GlobalMenu
> does?

The panel is meant to be detached from the rest of the desktop. That
means it looks the same on all workspaces no matter what window is
currently focused. Unfortunately the window list is an exception to
this (grr…), but you'll find the behaviour holds very consistently
outside of that.

> When e.g. Totem is focused, why not focus primarily Totem's options in the
> sound menu?
> imagine the following scenario:
> 1. start a song in Rhythmbox
> 2. hide main Rhythmbox window with the proposed "hide" button
> 3. raise e.g. Abiword to compose text
> 4. access Sound Menu to change Rhythmboxes volume
> The use case in which i would need a "main volume" slider is rather a
> workaround for not knowing which app is disturbing.
> For this we have the single sliders in "Applications" within Sound
> Preferences.
> Also, "Sound Preferences" is not a good name.
> my thoughts, condensed:
> * make Sound Menu behave like GlobalMenu
> * give Sound Menu > Sound Preferences > Applications a more accessible
> semantic path

I think that last bit is a good point. We have a lot of similar cases
floating around, where all sorts of functionality is crammed into a
generic “Preferences” window. It gets weird when these preferences are
really designed to be accessed routinely. There should be a rule:
don't call anything a Preference if its value is changed through
normal use of an application.

In hunting for a specific example just now, I noticed gcalctool
currently has “Angle units” under its Preferences!
To change the map in Mahjongg, you go to Preferences, whereas “Enable
toolbar” is an option accessed in a single click from its “Settings”
menu.



Back to the Sound Preferences, two things suddenly became apparent to
me, which I hadn't really noticed before. I'm looking at this from
having used indicator-sound, then selected “Sound Preferences…;”
changing the volume is the first thing on my mind.

The first thing I see is “Choose an alert sound,” then that I'm in the
Sound Effects section where I pick a sound theme to use. Ideally, I
will use this section once ever when I first set up Ubuntu, to switch
to the Freedesktop sound theme. I am an exception; I'll bet most
people wouldn't even touch this, since there are so few sound themes
out there right now, there's only one by default, and it's difficult
to install them. This is a good candidate for a preferences dialog.
(And I understand there's a GSoC project to make this part a lot
cooler. Yay!)

In order, the next section is configuring hardware devices. Again,
shouldn't need to use that section more than once (PA tries to sort
these out automatically, right?), and it doesn't change anywhere else.
Great!

Now we get to Input device, Output device, and volume for individual
Applications. Those are options that people probably _would_
manipulate more than once ever. They are all related to what is going
on Right Now, they are all quick to change, and I don't have the same
expectation for the state of these things to be preserved. Applying
this to my test, the values controlled can (and do) change outside of
Sound Preferences (like Rhythmbox's own volume control), but the
controls themselves also change! Rhythmbox is only controlled under
Sound Preferences›Applications when it is running.

To me, this is begging to be split into two windows. One being
preferences, the other being Volume Control. As a simpler approach,
gnome-volume-control can be told to show the more relevant section in
this context. Running gnome-volume-control --page=applications from
indicator-sound does the trick ;)


Thanks,
Dylan

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Re: [Ayatana] dx-m-indicator-sound feedback

[Frederik Nnaji]

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 01:36, Dylan McCall  wrote:

> The panel is meant to be detached from the rest of the desktop. That
> means it looks the same on all workspaces no matter what window is
> currently focused.


Workspaces were not part of my point, not relevant to my proposal either.


> > * make Sound Menu behave like GlobalMenu
>

My main idea is to adapt status indicators to what the user wants focused.


> don't call anything a Preference if its value is changed through
> normal use of an application.
>

+1


> To me, this is begging to be split into two windows. One being
> preferences, the other being Volume Control.


Aha.
We're getting somewhere now..


> As a simpler approach,
> gnome-volume-control can be told to show the more relevant section in
> this context. Running gnome-volume-control --page=applications from
> indicator-sound does the trick ;)
>

nice thinking ;)

Let me refine our recent points again:
* seperate static preferences from runtime controls
* tie status indication to user focus

!?
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Re: [Ayatana] VPN

[Frederik Nnaji]

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 12:08, Mark Shuttleworth  wrote:

> On 15/06/10 07:37, Philipp Wendler wrote:
> > So I definitely would like to have an easy way to start a VPN
> > connection (directly in the indicator). It is like this even on my
> > cellphone, which has very limited screen space. But it would be ok for
> > me if the VPN options are only shown if a VPN connection has been
> > configured.
>
> Yes, I agree that displaying *configured* VPN's in the indicator is
> appropriate, leaving VPN setup to the network settings interface which
> is currently being designed.
>

this is gonna kick a$$
i hope we'll have a wizard for mobile broadband setup soon..
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Re: [Ayatana] Applications, a navigable folder

[David Hamm]

That picture makes me think of osx. I like what your sayiin tho.

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Re: [Ayatana] Applications, a navigable folder

[Thorsten Wilms]

On Thu, 2010-06-17 at 03:57 +0200, Frederik Nnaji wrote:

> * delete application from /usr/share/applications to do "apt-get
> remove [package]"
> * drag a package name or apt-url into this folder to do
> "apt:[package]"
> * show details about software application in side pane (version,
> homepage, report a problem etc)

The ROX Desktop, inspired by RISC OS, uses application directories.
http://roscidus.com/desktop/
http://freshmeat.net/articles/application-directories

This in combination with http://0install.net/
As I recall from reading about it years ago, both "installed" and
"available" applications are represented by launchers, so there's only a
"run" command, no "install" command. Having an application installed
locally then only means you have it cached.


By now the best known implementation of the basic idea has to be the
Bundles of MacOS X.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_Bundle


-- 
Thorsten Wilms

thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/


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