[AFMUG] Radio Failure, which is more common

[Nate Burke]

I have an AF24 Link which was humming along nicely, but just dropped 
30db on one chain on one end.  Since it's only 1 chain, and only on one 
end, I'm thinking it's not an alignment or infringement problem.  Which 
is more likely to be the failure, that the Transmitter burned out, or 
that the Receiver went deaf?  Just trying to figure out which end to 
start with replacing the equipment.


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Re: [AFMUG] Radio Failure, which is more common

[Matt Hoppes]

So oddly enough try reversing the frequencies on the two radios and see if the 
issue goes away, you may have lost some kind of a preamp or other device that’s 
only in one direction or one frequency.

I have seen that before.

> On Aug 23, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Nate Burke  wrote:
> 
> I have an AF24 Link which was humming along nicely, but just dropped 30db on 
> one chain on one end.  Since it's only 1 chain, and only on one end, I'm 
> thinking it's not an alignment or infringement problem.  Which is more likely 
> to be the failure, that the Transmitter burned out, or that the Receiver went 
> deaf?  Just trying to figure out which end to start with replacing the 
> equipment.
> 
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Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to Industry

[dave via AF]

It means dont be THAT guy :)


On 8/22/19 3:44 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-proposes-fines-against-wisps-and-issues-warning-industry-0 






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Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to Industry

[Chuck McCown]

Sadly we have seen this several times before.  Weather radar is extremely 
sensitive.  They use 60 dB antennas and scan in all directions.  If you are 
within 100 miles of them and using their 5.4 channels it is almost ceartain you 
will be caught.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 23, 2019, at 6:49 AM, dave via AF  wrote:
> 
> It means dont be THAT guy :)
> 
> 
>> On 8/22/19 3:44 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
>> https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-proposes-fines-against-wisps-and-issues-warning-industry-0
>>  
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: [AFMUG] Radio Failure, which is more common

[Ken Hohhof]

Not AF24 specific, but absent any other information, I always change the xmt
side first.  Losing 20-30 dB sounds like a blown xmt power amp.  Totally
deaf could be either side.

But maybe someone can add info about typical AF24 failure modes that would
supersede this.


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Nate Burke
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 7:19 AM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: [AFMUG] Radio Failure, which is more common

I have an AF24 Link which was humming along nicely, but just dropped 30db on
one chain on one end.  Since it's only 1 chain, and only on one end, I'm
thinking it's not an alignment or infringement problem.  Which is more
likely to be the failure, that the Transmitter burned out, or that the
Receiver went deaf?  Just trying to figure out which end to start with
replacing the equipment.

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Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to Industry

[dave via AF]

What is the vert/horiz degree on those antennas or is it just one big 
rotating parabolic dish ?
I imagine they would have hundreds of slim sectors of about 1deg each 
inside a giant ball or dome.



On 8/23/19 8:39 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:

Sadly we have seen this several times before.  Weather radar is extremely 
sensitive.  They use 60 dB antennas and scan in all directions.  If you are 
within 100 miles of them and using their 5.4 channels it is almost ceartain you 
will be caught.

Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 23, 2019, at 6:49 AM, dave via AF  wrote:

It means dont be THAT guy :)



On 8/22/19 3:44 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-proposes-fines-against-wisps-and-issues-warning-industry-0



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Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to Industry

[Ken Hohhof]

I personally am skeptical that DFS actually works worth a damn, I think the
operable advice is DON'T USE THE SAME FREQUENCY AS YOUR LOCAL TDWR!!!
Even with DFS enabled.  It's not had to look up the frequencies they use,
stay away.


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of dave via AF
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 8:51 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: dave 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to
Industry

What is the vert/horiz degree on those antennas or is it just one big
rotating parabolic dish ?
I imagine they would have hundreds of slim sectors of about 1deg each inside
a giant ball or dome.


On 8/23/19 8:39 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
> Sadly we have seen this several times before.  Weather radar is extremely
sensitive.  They use 60 dB antennas and scan in all directions.  If you are
within 100 miles of them and using their 5.4 channels it is almost ceartain
you will be caught.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Aug 23, 2019, at 6:49 AM, dave via AF  wrote:
>>
>> It means dont be THAT guy :)
>>
>>
>>> On 8/22/19 3:44 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
>>> https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-proposes-fines-against-wisps-and-is
>>> sues-warning-industry-0
>>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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Re: [AFMUG] Radio Failure, which is more common

[Chuck Macenski]

When an airFiber radio has signal issues and modulates all the way down to
1x, it stops using chain 1 (hence the signal level drops). It may be that
there is some issue causing that direction to modulate down to 1x?

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 8:40 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> Not AF24 specific, but absent any other information, I always change the
> xmt
> side first.  Losing 20-30 dB sounds like a blown xmt power amp.  Totally
> deaf could be either side.
>
> But maybe someone can add info about typical AF24 failure modes that would
> supersede this.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Nate Burke
> Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 7:19 AM
> To: Animal Farm 
> Subject: [AFMUG] Radio Failure, which is more common
>
> I have an AF24 Link which was humming along nicely, but just dropped 30db
> on
> one chain on one end.  Since it's only 1 chain, and only on one end, I'm
> thinking it's not an alignment or infringement problem.  Which is more
> likely to be the failure, that the Transmitter burned out, or that the
> Receiver went deaf?  Just trying to figure out which end to start with
> replacing the equipment.
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
> --
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to Industry

[chuck]

The site I have been to was a rotating parabolic that could tilt.  I think 
it was 50' in diameter.


-Original Message- 
From: dave via AF

Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 7:50 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: dave
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to 
Industry


What is the vert/horiz degree on those antennas or is it just one big
rotating parabolic dish ?
I imagine they would have hundreds of slim sectors of about 1deg each
inside a giant ball or dome.


On 8/23/19 8:39 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Sadly we have seen this several times before.  Weather radar is extremely 
sensitive.  They use 60 dB antennas and scan in all directions.  If you 
are within 100 miles of them and using their 5.4 channels it is almost 
ceartain you will be caught.


Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 23, 2019, at 6:49 AM, dave via AF  wrote:

It means dont be THAT guy :)



On 8/22/19 3:44 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-proposes-fines-against-wisps-and-issues-warning-industry-0



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Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to Industry

[Eric Muehleisen]

I too am skeptical. The majority of our DFS detection's happen between 7am
and 10am and only on northern facing AP's. The closest TDWR to us is 90
miles to our south. I'm convinced our DFS events are false positives due to
Cambiums extreme sensitivity that showed up after firmware 15.0.3. Before
that, almost never a DFS detection. Now it happens on the regular,
regardless of frequency.

http://www.wispa.org/Resources/Industry-Resources/TDWR-Resources/TDWR-Locations-and-Frequencies


On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 9:39 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> I personally am skeptical that DFS actually works worth a damn, I think the
> operable advice is DON'T USE THE SAME FREQUENCY AS YOUR LOCAL TDWR!!!
> Even with DFS enabled.  It's not had to look up the frequencies they use,
> stay away.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of dave via AF
> Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 8:51 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Cc: dave 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to
> Industry
>
> What is the vert/horiz degree on those antennas or is it just one big
> rotating parabolic dish ?
> I imagine they would have hundreds of slim sectors of about 1deg each
> inside
> a giant ball or dome.
>
>
> On 8/23/19 8:39 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
> > Sadly we have seen this several times before.  Weather radar is extremely
> sensitive.  They use 60 dB antennas and scan in all directions.  If you are
> within 100 miles of them and using their 5.4 channels it is almost ceartain
> you will be caught.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Aug 23, 2019, at 6:49 AM, dave via AF  wrote:
> >>
> >> It means dont be THAT guy :)
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 8/22/19 3:44 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
> >>> https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-proposes-fines-against-wisps-and-is
> >>> sues-warning-industry-0
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> AF mailing list
> >> AF@af.afmug.com
> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
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>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to Industry

[Gino A. Villarini]

WE had on case some years ago that a Cambium 430 with DFS actually chose 5610 
as its channel.


Gino Villarini
Founder/President
@gvillarini
t: 787.273.4143 Ext. 204
m:
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[https://image.ibb.co/dqqq4U/tw-logo.png] 

[https://image.ibb.co/bAJcjU/yt-logo.png] 

www.aeronetpr.com | Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 
Guaynabo, PR 00968
From: AF  on behalf of Ken Hohhof 
Reply-To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Date: Friday, August 23, 2019 at 10:40 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to 
Industry

I personally am skeptical that DFS actually works worth a damn, I think the
operable advice is DON'T USE THE SAME FREQUENCY AS YOUR LOCAL TDWR!!!
Even with DFS enabled. It's not had to look up the frequencies they use,
stay away.


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of dave via AF
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 8:51 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: dave 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to
Industry

What is the vert/horiz degree on those antennas or is it just one big
rotating parabolic dish ?
I imagine they would have hundreds of slim sectors of about 1deg each inside
a giant ball or dome.


On 8/23/19 8:39 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
> Sadly we have seen this several times before. Weather radar is extremely
sensitive. They use 60 dB antennas and scan in all directions. If you are
within 100 miles of them and using their 5.4 channels it is almost ceartain
you will be caught.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Aug 23, 2019, at 6:49 AM, dave via AF  wrote:
>>
>> It means dont be THAT guy :)
>>
>>
>>> On 8/22/19 3:44 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
>>> https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-proposes-fines-against-wisps-and-is
>>> sues-warning-industry-0
>>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to Industry

[Bill Prince]

  
  
+1 

The nearest 5GHz TDWR station to us is over 400 miles away and on
  the opposite side of the Sierra Nevada, yet we routinely get DFS
  hits.


bp



On 8/23/2019 7:57 AM, Eric Muehleisen
  wrote:


  
  I too am skeptical. The majority of our DFS
detection's happen between 7am and 10am and only on northern
facing AP's. The closest TDWR to us is 90 miles to our south.
I'm convinced our DFS events are false positives due to Cambiums
extreme sensitivity that showed up after firmware 15.0.3. Before
that, almost never a DFS detection. Now it happens on the
regular, regardless of frequency.


http://www.wispa.org/Resources/Industry-Resources/TDWR-Resources/TDWR-Locations-and-Frequencies  

  
  
  
On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 9:39
  AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

I
  personally am skeptical that DFS actually works worth a damn,
  I think the
  operable advice is DON'T USE THE SAME FREQUENCY AS YOUR LOCAL
  TDWR!!!
  Even with DFS enabled.  It's not had to look up the
  frequencies they use,
  stay away.
  
  
  -Original Message-
  From: AF 
  On Behalf Of dave via AF
  Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 8:51 AM
  To: af@af.afmug.com
  Cc: dave 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and
  Issues Warning to
  Industry
  
  What is the vert/horiz degree on those antennas or is it just
  one big
  rotating parabolic dish ?
  I imagine they would have hundreds of slim sectors of about
  1deg each inside
  a giant ball or dome.
  
  
  On 8/23/19 8:39 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
  > Sadly we have seen this several times before.  Weather
  radar is extremely
  sensitive.  They use 60 dB antennas and scan in all
  directions.  If you are
  within 100 miles of them and using their 5.4 channels it is
  almost ceartain
  you will be caught.
  >
  > Sent from my iPhone
  >
  >> On Aug 23, 2019, at 6:49 AM, dave via AF  wrote:
  >>
  >> It means dont be THAT guy :)
  >>
  >>
  >>> On 8/22/19 3:44 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
  >>> https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-proposes-fines-against-wisps-and-is
  >>> sues-warning-industry-0
  >>>
  >>
  >> --
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  >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
  
  
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Re: [AFMUG] Reselling Electricity

[Adam Moffett]

I read an article once which claimed that to satisfy worldwide electric 
demand via wind alone would require extracting 100% of the energy from 
the wind.  That is to say, it would require stopping the wind.


-Adam

On 8/22/2019 5:25 PM, Bill Prince wrote:


I am unschooled in this, but since windmills extract energy from wind, 
they would actually DECREASE wind locally. Might be pretty hard to 
measure though.



bp


On 8/22/2019 2:18 PM, Carl Peterson wrote:
I believe that mountain lions go downwind to stalk their prey. Is 
there any chance that the increased wind caused by the windmills has 
led to an influx of mountain lions because their prey is easier to 
stalk? Somebody should look into this.


On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 4:08 PM Carl Peterson 
mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>> wrote:


Thats completely bogus.  Windmills don't attract cats.  The wind
from the windmills blows away the smell of predators which causes
the mice and birds to come out.  Its the mice and birds that
attract the cats.

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 4:04 PM Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

Well I hear that windmills attract cats.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:15 PM, Bill Prince
mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Based upon what I've read, the danger to birds is way, way
overstated. Probably at least an order of magnitude. Cats are
far more dangerous to birds.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
>> On 8/22/2019 1:10 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
>> You are diving down on a mouse that was disturbed by the
tip vortex off a 300mph passing blade tip and swap... 
 300mph _next_ blade tip knocks you into oblivion...
>>
>>> On 08/22/2019 01:01 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
>>> Well, that explains the bats, but what about the raptors?
Do they just die from disgust because they think it's an eyesore?
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 6:53 PM Chuck McCown
mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     There is a low pressure zone on the lee side of the
blade that
>>>     apparently is
>>>     dramatic enough of a pressure change to cause some
kind of lung
>>>     damage to
>>>     bats.
>>>
>>>     -Original Message-
>>>     From: Robert Andrews
>>>     Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 5:27 PM
>>>     To: af@af.afmug.com 
>
>>>     Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Reselling Electricity
>>>
>>>     That was back in 2012, and the blades were 75 Meters
now blades are
>>>     exceeding 104 Meters
>>>
>>>     On 08/21/2019 04:23 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
>>>      > Ummm   blade tip speed is still pretty darn high.
Just because
>>>     it looks
>>>      > slow doesn't mean that it is... 180Mph...
>>>      >
>>>      >
>>>

https://gizmodo.com/the-worlds-biggest-wind-turbine-blades-are-so-long-thei-5930272
>>>      >
>>>      > On 08/21/2019 04:13 PM, Bill Prince wrote:
>>>      >> Not the new giant ones. They move very slowly &
the birds & bats
>>>     just fly
>>>      >> around them.
>>>      >>
>>>      >>
>>>      >> bp
>>>      >> 
>>>      >>
>>>      >> On 8/21/2019 3:11 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
>>>      >>> Wind kills bats and raptors and migratory waterfowl
>>>      >>
>>>      >
>>>
>>>     --     AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com 
>
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>>
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>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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*PORT NETWORKS*

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707



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401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707






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Re: [AFMUG] Reselling Electricity

[Carl Peterson]

Their must have been some other assumptions.  Total usage is something like
10tw and average wind energy available under 100m is somewhere around
250tw.  Obviously you could never capture all that energy.

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 11:53 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:

> I read an article once which claimed that to satisfy worldwide electric
> demand via wind alone would require extracting 100% of the energy from the
> wind.  That is to say, it would require stopping the wind.
>
> -Adam
>
> On 8/22/2019 5:25 PM, Bill Prince wrote:
>
> I am unschooled in this, but since windmills extract energy from wind,
> they would actually DECREASE wind locally. Might be pretty hard to measure
> though.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
>
> On 8/22/2019 2:18 PM, Carl Peterson wrote:
>
> I believe that mountain lions go downwind to stalk their prey. Is there
> any chance that the increased wind caused by the windmills has led to an
> influx of mountain lions because their prey is easier to stalk? Somebody
> should look into this.
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 4:08 PM Carl Peterson 
> wrote:
>
>> Thats completely bogus.  Windmills don't attract cats.  The wind from the
>> windmills blows away the smell of predators which causes the mice and birds
>> to come out.  Its the mice and birds that attract the cats.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 4:04 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>
>>> Well I hear that windmills attract cats.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> > On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:15 PM, Bill Prince  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Based upon what I've read, the danger to birds is way, way overstated.
>>> Probably at least an order of magnitude. Cats are far more dangerous to
>>> birds.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > bp
>>> > 
>>> >
>>> >> On 8/22/2019 1:10 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
>>> >> You are diving down on a mouse that was disturbed by the tip vortex
>>> off a 300mph passing blade tip and swap...   300mph _next_ blade tip knocks
>>> you into oblivion...
>>> >>
>>> >>> On 08/22/2019 01:01 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
>>> >>> Well, that explains the bats, but what about the raptors? Do they
>>> just die from disgust because they think it's an eyesore?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 6:53 PM Chuck McCown >> > wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> There is a low pressure zone on the lee side of the blade that
>>> >>> apparently is
>>> >>> dramatic enough of a pressure change to cause some kind of lung
>>> >>> damage to
>>> >>> bats.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> -Original Message-
>>> >>> From: Robert Andrews
>>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 5:27 PM
>>> >>> To: af@af.afmug.com 
>>> >>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Reselling Electricity
>>> >>>
>>> >>> That was back in 2012, and the blades were 75 Meters now blades
>>> are
>>> >>> exceeding 104 Meters
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On 08/21/2019 04:23 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
>>> >>>  > Ummm   blade tip speed is still pretty darn high. Just because
>>> >>> it looks
>>> >>>  > slow doesn't mean that it is...  180Mph...
>>> >>>  >
>>> >>>  >
>>> >>>
>>> https://gizmodo.com/the-worlds-biggest-wind-turbine-blades-are-so-long-thei-5930272
>>> >>>  >
>>> >>>  > On 08/21/2019 04:13 PM, Bill Prince wrote:
>>> >>>  >> Not the new giant ones. They move very slowly & the birds &
>>> bats
>>> >>> just fly
>>> >>>  >> around them.
>>> >>>  >>
>>> >>>  >>
>>> >>>  >> bp
>>> >>>  >> 
>>> >>>  >>
>>> >>>  >> On 8/21/2019 3:11 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
>>> >>>  >>> Wind kills bats and raptors and migratory waterfowl
>>> >>>  >>
>>> >>>  >
>>> >>>
>>> >>> -- AF mailing list
>>> >>> AF@af.afmug.com 
>>> >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> -- AF mailing list
>>> >>> AF@af.afmug.com 
>>> >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > AF mailing list
>>> > AF@af.afmug.com
>>> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Carl Peterson
>>
>> *PORT NETWORKS*
>>
>> 401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
>>
>> Baltimore, MD 21202
>>
>> (410) 637-3707
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Carl Peterson
>
> *PORT NETWORKS*
>
> 401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
>
> Baltimore, MD 21202
>
> (410) 637-3707
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


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Re: [AFMUG] Reselling Electricity

[chuck]

I am sure there will be continual advancements in solar panel efficiencies and 
lowering of cost per watt.  Solar is practical for powering most things.  

We will always need to fire up the coal, oil, natural gas, nuclear, or hydro 
for smelting aluminum etc.  

From: Carl Peterson 
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 11:00 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Reselling Electricity

Their must have been some other assumptions.  Total usage is something like 
10tw and average wind energy available under 100m is somewhere around 250tw.  
Obviously you could never capture all that energy.   

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 11:53 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:

  I read an article once which claimed that to satisfy worldwide electric 
demand via wind alone would require extracting 100% of the energy from the 
wind.  That is to say, it would require stopping the wind. 

  -Adam


  On 8/22/2019 5:25 PM, Bill Prince wrote:

I am unschooled in this, but since windmills extract energy from wind, they 
would actually DECREASE wind locally. Might be pretty hard to measure though.



bp


On 8/22/2019 2:18 PM, Carl Peterson wrote:

  I believe that mountain lions go downwind to stalk their prey. Is there 
any chance that the increased wind caused by the windmills has led to an influx 
of mountain lions because their prey is easier to stalk? Somebody should look 
into this.


  On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 4:08 PM Carl Peterson 
 wrote:

Thats completely bogus.  Windmills don't attract cats.  The wind from 
the windmills blows away the smell of predators which causes the mice and birds 
to come out.  Its the mice and birds that attract the cats.  

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 4:04 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:

  Well I hear that windmills attract cats.

  Sent from my iPhone

  > On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:15 PM, Bill Prince  
wrote:
  > 
  > Based upon what I've read, the danger to birds is way, way 
overstated. Probably at least an order of magnitude. Cats are far more 
dangerous to birds.
  > 
  > 
  > bp
  > 
  > 
  >> On 8/22/2019 1:10 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
  >> You are diving down on a mouse that was disturbed by the tip 
vortex off a 300mph passing blade tip and swap...   300mph _next_ blade tip 
knocks you into oblivion...
  >> 
  >>> On 08/22/2019 01:01 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
  >>> Well, that explains the bats, but what about the raptors? Do they 
just die from disgust because they think it's an eyesore?
  >>> 
  >>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 6:53 PM Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
  >>> 
  >>> There is a low pressure zone on the lee side of the blade that
  >>> apparently is
  >>> dramatic enough of a pressure change to cause some kind of 
lung
  >>> damage to
  >>> bats.
  >>> 
  >>> -Original Message-
  >>> From: Robert Andrews
  >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 5:27 PM
  >>> To: af@af.afmug.com 
  >>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Reselling Electricity
  >>> 
  >>> That was back in 2012, and the blades were 75 Meters now 
blades are
  >>> exceeding 104 Meters
  >>> 
  >>> On 08/21/2019 04:23 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
  >>>  > Ummm   blade tip speed is still pretty darn high. Just 
because
  >>> it looks
  >>>  > slow doesn't mean that it is...  180Mph...
  >>>  >
  >>>  >
  >>> 
https://gizmodo.com/the-worlds-biggest-wind-turbine-blades-are-so-long-thei-5930272
  >>>  >
  >>>  > On 08/21/2019 04:13 PM, Bill Prince wrote:
  >>>  >> Not the new giant ones. They move very slowly & the birds 
& bats
  >>> just fly
  >>>  >> around them.
  >>>  >>
  >>>  >>
  >>>  >> bp
  >>>  >> 
  >>>  >>
  >>>  >> On 8/21/2019 3:11 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
  >>>  >>> Wind kills bats and raptors and migratory waterfowl
  >>>  >>
  >>>  >
  >>> 
  >>> -- AF mailing list
  >>> AF@af.afmug.com 
  >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
  >>> 
  >>> 
  >>> -- AF mailing list
  >>> AF@af.afmug.com 
  >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
  >>> 
  >>> 
  >>> 
  >> 
  > 
  > -- 
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  > AF@af.afmug.com
  > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

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  http://af.afmug.com/m

Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to Industry

[Sterling Jacobson]

They really should open up a database system where you, or the radio itself, 
registers to GPS location it’s operating at and enables/disables the use DFS 
frequencies entirely.

But that would mean someone in the government would have to do some work, or 
contract it out for one gagillion dollars…

Also, like said before, the best practice is to never use the radar frequency 
in use near you.

The FCC doesn’t have enough man power to police unless it’s actually affecting 
the radar system.

And therein lies the caveat. As I found out years ago, you can be clean or 
operating DFS appropriate channels even outside the radar advisory distance, 
and still get caught up in a witch hunt if SOME OTHER PROVIDER is causing the 
problem.

When I had that go around, the FCC caught and fined a swath of WISPs because, 
IMO, they couldn’t actually narrow down the abuser and just fined everyone that 
was at all in any sort of violation of anything, in a 30 mile radius.


From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 9:13 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to 
Industry


+1

The nearest 5GHz TDWR station to us is over 400 miles away and on the opposite 
side of the Sierra Nevada, yet we routinely get DFS hits.



bp




On 8/23/2019 7:57 AM, Eric Muehleisen wrote:
I too am skeptical. The majority of our DFS detection's happen between 7am and 
10am and only on northern facing AP's. The closest TDWR to us is 90 miles to 
our south. I'm convinced our DFS events are false positives due to Cambiums 
extreme sensitivity that showed up after firmware 15.0.3. Before that, almost 
never a DFS detection. Now it happens on the regular, regardless of frequency.

http://www.wispa.org/Resources/Industry-Resources/TDWR-Resources/TDWR-Locations-and-Frequencies

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 9:39 AM Ken Hohhof 
mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:
I personally am skeptical that DFS actually works worth a damn, I think the
operable advice is DON'T USE THE SAME FREQUENCY AS YOUR LOCAL TDWR!!!
Even with DFS enabled.  It's not had to look up the frequencies they use,
stay away.


-Original Message-
From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
dave via AF
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 8:51 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: dave mailto:dmilho...@wletc.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to
Industry

What is the vert/horiz degree on those antennas or is it just one big
rotating parabolic dish ?
I imagine they would have hundreds of slim sectors of about 1deg each inside
a giant ball or dome.


On 8/23/19 8:39 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
> Sadly we have seen this several times before.  Weather radar is extremely
sensitive.  They use 60 dB antennas and scan in all directions.  If you are
within 100 miles of them and using their 5.4 channels it is almost ceartain
you will be caught.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Aug 23, 2019, at 6:49 AM, dave via AF 
>> mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
>>
>> It means dont be THAT guy :)
>>
>>
>>> On 8/22/19 3:44 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
>>> https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-proposes-fines-against-wisps-and-is
>>> sues-warning-industry-0
>>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to Industry

[chuck]

The system exists for TVWS.  Could easily be adapted for this.  

From: Sterling Jacobson 
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 11:11 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to 
Industry

They really should open up a database system where you, or the radio itself, 
registers to GPS location it’s operating at and enables/disables the use DFS 
frequencies entirely.

 

But that would mean someone in the government would have to do some work, or 
contract it out for one gagillion dollars…

 

Also, like said before, the best practice is to never use the radar frequency 
in use near you.

 

The FCC doesn’t have enough man power to police unless it’s actually affecting 
the radar system.

 

And therein lies the caveat. As I found out years ago, you can be clean or 
operating DFS appropriate channels even outside the radar advisory distance, 
and still get caught up in a witch hunt if SOME OTHER PROVIDER is causing the 
problem.

 

When I had that go around, the FCC caught and fined a swath of WISPs because, 
IMO, they couldn’t actually narrow down the abuser and just fined everyone that 
was at all in any sort of violation of anything, in a 30 mile radius.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 9:13 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to 
Industry

 

+1 

The nearest 5GHz TDWR station to us is over 400 miles away and on the opposite 
side of the Sierra Nevada, yet we routinely get DFS hits.

 

bp On 8/23/2019 7:57 AM, Eric Muehleisen wrote:

  I too am skeptical. The majority of our DFS detection's happen between 7am 
and 10am and only on northern facing AP's. The closest TDWR to us is 90 miles 
to our south. I'm convinced our DFS events are false positives due to Cambiums 
extreme sensitivity that showed up after firmware 15.0.3. Before that, almost 
never a DFS detection. Now it happens on the regular, regardless of frequency. 

   

  
http://www.wispa.org/Resources/Industry-Resources/TDWR-Resources/TDWR-Locations-and-Frequencies
  

   

  On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 9:39 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

I personally am skeptical that DFS actually works worth a damn, I think the
operable advice is DON'T USE THE SAME FREQUENCY AS YOUR LOCAL TDWR!!!
Even with DFS enabled.  It's not had to look up the frequencies they use,
stay away.


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of dave via AF
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 8:51 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: dave 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to
Industry

What is the vert/horiz degree on those antennas or is it just one big
rotating parabolic dish ?
I imagine they would have hundreds of slim sectors of about 1deg each inside
a giant ball or dome.


On 8/23/19 8:39 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
> Sadly we have seen this several times before.  Weather radar is extremely
sensitive.  They use 60 dB antennas and scan in all directions.  If you are
within 100 miles of them and using their 5.4 channels it is almost ceartain
you will be caught.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Aug 23, 2019, at 6:49 AM, dave via AF  wrote:
>>
>> It means dont be THAT guy :)
>>
>>
>>> On 8/22/19 3:44 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
>>> https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-proposes-fines-against-wisps-and-is
>>> sues-warning-industry-0
>>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to Industry

[Mark Radabaugh]

WISPA actually proposed the database during the discussions a few years ago 
with the FCC where we nearly lost access to all of the lower portion of 5.7 due 
to the OOB emissions into the 5.4 space.   The FCC rejected the proposal due to 
complexity (and it was complex - a design for a mouse that ended up as an 
elephant).  The accepted proposal was one that Ubiquiti came up with that was a 
lot simpler (a change to the mask that the FCC found acceptable).

Mark

> On Aug 23, 2019, at 1:18 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
> 
> The system exists for TVWS.  Could easily be adapted for this. 
>  
> From: Sterling Jacobson <>
> Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 11:11 AM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to 
> Industry
>  
> They really should open up a database system where you, or the radio itself, 
> registers to GPS location it’s operating at and enables/disables the use DFS 
> frequencies entirely.
>  
> But that would mean someone in the government would have to do some work, or 
> contract it out for one gagillion dollars…
>  
> Also, like said before, the best practice is to never use the radar frequency 
> in use near you.
>  
> The FCC doesn’t have enough man power to police unless it’s actually 
> affecting the radar system.
>  
> And therein lies the caveat. As I found out years ago, you can be clean or 
> operating DFS appropriate channels even outside the radar advisory distance, 
> and still get caught up in a witch hunt if SOME OTHER PROVIDER is causing the 
> problem.
>  
> When I had that go around, the FCC caught and fined a swath of WISPs because, 
> IMO, they couldn’t actually narrow down the abuser and just fined everyone 
> that was at all in any sort of violation of anything, in a 30 mile radius.
>  
>  
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
> Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 9:13 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to 
> Industry
>  
> +1
> The nearest 5GHz TDWR station to us is over 400 miles away and on the 
> opposite side of the Sierra Nevada, yet we routinely get DFS hits.
>  
> bp
> 
>  
> On 8/23/2019 7:57 AM, Eric Muehleisen wrote:
>> I too am skeptical. The majority of our DFS detection's happen between 7am 
>> and 10am and only on northern facing AP's. The closest TDWR to us is 90 
>> miles to our south. I'm convinced our DFS events are false positives due to 
>> Cambiums extreme sensitivity that showed up after firmware 15.0.3. Before 
>> that, almost never a DFS detection. Now it happens on the regular, 
>> regardless of frequency.
>>  
>> http://www.wispa.org/Resources/Industry-Resources/TDWR-Resources/TDWR-Locations-and-Frequencies
>>  
>> 
>>  
>>  
>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 9:39 AM Ken Hohhof > wrote:
>>> I personally am skeptical that DFS actually works worth a damn, I think the
>>> operable advice is DON'T USE THE SAME FREQUENCY AS YOUR LOCAL TDWR!!!
>>> Even with DFS enabled.  It's not had to look up the frequencies they use,
>>> stay away.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: AF > On Behalf Of dave via AF
>>> Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 8:51 AM
>>> To: af@af.afmug.com <>
>>> Cc: dave >
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FCC Proposes Fines Against WISPs and Issues Warning to
>>> Industry
>>> 
>>> What is the vert/horiz degree on those antennas or is it just one big
>>> rotating parabolic dish ?
>>> I imagine they would have hundreds of slim sectors of about 1deg each inside
>>> a giant ball or dome.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 8/23/19 8:39 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
>>> > Sadly we have seen this several times before.  Weather radar is extremely
>>> sensitive.  They use 60 dB antennas and scan in all directions.  If you are
>>> within 100 miles of them and using their 5.4 channels it is almost ceartain
>>> you will be caught.
>>> >
>>> > Sent from my iPhone
>>> >
>>> >> On Aug 23, 2019, at 6:49 AM, dave via AF > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> It means dont be THAT guy :)
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> On 8/22/19 3:44 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
>>> >>> https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-proposes-fines-against-wisps-and-is 
>>> >>> 
>>> >>> sues-warning-industry-0
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> AF mailing list
>>> >> AF@af.afmug.com <>
>>> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
>>> >> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
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>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
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