Re: [AFMUG] Used/Test Ubiquiti GPON?

[Dan Parrish]

Please consider using a CRS3xx instead of CRS2xx as your design goal of 
'discrete' VLANs will bypass hardware offload in a CRS2xx and affect 
performance.

https://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:CRS1xx/2xx_series_switches#Bridge_Hardware_Offloading

--dan



On 7/10/2018 10:35 AM, Tim Cailloux wrote:
I'm looking at it as an opportunity to get familiar with production GPON in a 
safe (and indoor, and air conditioned) environment.

I've been planning to start with Active Ethernet on discrete VLANs and 
aggregating the runs in a CRS212, uplinked to a CCR1009 (my standard "tower 
router").

tim

On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 11:14 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies 
mailto:m...@mailmt.com>> wrote:
Chuck,

+1

GPON is great for scaling.  But, if I'm going into a office building with just 
a few offices, I would look at Active E.  Of course, if this office building 
has 100's of offices, then back to GPON

--
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Tuesday, July 10, 2018, 11:06:02 AM, you wrote:


Sounds to me like an ideal active E deployment if you have fiber drops 
to the suites.  PON would add a layer of complexity that seems unnecessary.

From: Tim Cailloux
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 8:46 AM
To: Animal Farm Mailing List
Subject: [AFMUG] Used/Test Ubiquiti GPON?

I'm providing managed WiFi service to a commercial office building and it seems 
like a good testbed for a trial GPON deployment, replacing Ethernet drops to 
the suites.

Does anyone have any of the Ubiquiti GPON gear (OLT, in particular) gathering 
dust on the shelf that you'd be willing to sell/loan?

tim

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(404) 406-9911

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Re: [AFMUG] OT: Mom's email problem

[chuck]

I have had all kinds of stuff like that over the past few months.  I have 
been blaming gmail.


-Original Message- 
From: Jay Weekley

Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 10:25 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] OT: Mom's email problem

Mom is saying that emails are bouncing to certain addresses at the same
domain but  I can email myself from her account with no problems so I
assume their being rejected by the recipient based on the following
message.  Is that correct?

"This Message was undeliverable due to the following reason:

Your message was not delivered because the return address was refused.

The return address was ""

Please reply to 
if you feel this message to be in error.

Reporting-MTA: dns; mtaout001.msg.strl.va.charter.net
Arrival-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:21:21 -0500
Received-From-MTA: dns; impout005 (68.114.189.20)

Final-Recipient: RFC822; 
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.3
Remote-MTA: dns; mx1.netsolmail.net (209.17.115.10)
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 553 5.3.0 68.114.190.26 Your message was rejected
for possible spam/virus content.Please ask your email provider to visit
http://emailadmin.registeredsite.com for resolution."


--
*Jay Weekley*
*Cyber Broadband
*

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Re: [AFMUG] OT: Mom's email problem

[Jay Weekley]

Yeah, I got that and told her that her email my have been flagged for 
that reason.  I put her IP address in the link and it wasn't blocked.  
Just trying to stay in the will.


Faisal Imtiaz wrote:

read the error message !

=
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 553 5.3.0 68.114.190.26 Your message was rejected

for possible spam/virus content.Please ask your email provider to visit
http://emailadmin.registeredsite.com for resolution."

===

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
http://www.snappytelecom.net

Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net

- Original Message -

From: "CBB - Jay Fuller" 
To: af@af.afmug.com
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 12:25:27 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] OT: Mom's email problem
Mom is saying that emails are bouncing to certain addresses at the same
domain but  I can email myself from her account with no problems so I
assume their being rejected by the recipient based on the following
message.  Is that correct?

"This Message was undeliverable due to the following reason:

Your message was not delivered because the return address was refused.

The return address was ""

Please reply to 
if you feel this message to be in error.

Reporting-MTA: dns; mtaout001.msg.strl.va.charter.net
Arrival-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:21:21 -0500
Received-From-MTA: dns; impout005 (68.114.189.20)

Final-Recipient: RFC822; 
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.3
Remote-MTA: dns; mx1.netsolmail.net (209.17.115.10)
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 553 5.3.0 68.114.190.26 Your message was rejected
for possible spam/virus content.Please ask your email provider to visit
http://emailadmin.registeredsite.com for resolution."


--
*Jay Weekley*
*Cyber Broadband
*

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Re: [AFMUG] OT: Mom's email problem

[CBB - Jay Fuller]

looks like you can unblock her IP from that site.
probably should scan her computer for nasties too

  - Original Message - 
  From: Faisal Imtiaz 
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 11:37 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: Mom's email problem


  read the error message !

  =
  Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 553 5.3.0 68.114.190.26 Your message was rejected
  > for possible spam/virus content.Please ask your email provider to visit
  > http://emailadmin.registeredsite.com for resolution."
  ===

  Faisal Imtiaz
  Snappy Internet & Telecom
  http://www.snappytelecom.net

  Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

  Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net

  - Original Message -
  > From: "CBB - Jay Fuller" 
  > To: af@af.afmug.com
  > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 12:25:27 PM
  > Subject: [AFMUG] OT: Mom's email problem

  > Mom is saying that emails are bouncing to certain addresses at the same
  > domain but  I can email myself from her account with no problems so I
  > assume their being rejected by the recipient based on the following
  > message.  Is that correct?
  > 
  > "This Message was undeliverable due to the following reason:
  > 
  > Your message was not delivered because the return address was refused.
  > 
  > The return address was ""
  > 
  > Please reply to 
  > if you feel this message to be in error.
  > 
  > Reporting-MTA: dns; mtaout001.msg.strl.va.charter.net
  > Arrival-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:21:21 -0500
  > Received-From-MTA: dns; impout005 (68.114.189.20)
  > 
  > Final-Recipient: RFC822; 
  > Action: failed
  > Status: 5.1.3
  > Remote-MTA: dns; mx1.netsolmail.net (209.17.115.10)
  > Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 553 5.3.0 68.114.190.26 Your message was rejected
  > for possible spam/virus content.Please ask your email provider to visit
  > http://emailadmin.registeredsite.com for resolution."
  > 
  > 
  > --
  > *Jay Weekley*
  > *Cyber Broadband
  > *
  > 
  > --
  > AF mailing list
  > AF@af.afmug.com
  > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

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[AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

[Adam Moffett]

I'm looking at an IoT application where we're allowed 30W ERP.  The 
transmitter is 5W, so even with antenna gain I have room to amplify that.


How do you count an amplifier in your link budget?  Just add the amp's 
tx gain and subtract connectors, or is there more to it than that?


Strangely I've never used an amplifier.I've never had a legal 
application for one before.


-Adam


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Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

[chuck]

Yep, that is how you do it.  30 watts EIRP is 44.7 dBm
5 watts is 37 dBm.  So 44.7 - 37 = 7.7 dB gain.

A 7.7 dBi antenna is pretty common.  

After adding antenna gain, I don't see much room to amplify.  

-Original Message- 
From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 11:06 AM 
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget 

I'm looking at an IoT application where we're allowed 30W ERP.  The 
transmitter is 5W, so even with antenna gain I have room to amplify that.


How do you count an amplifier in your link budget?  Just add the amp's 
tx gain and subtract connectors, or is there more to it than that?


Strangely I've never used an amplifier.I've never had a legal 
application for one before.


-Adam


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Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

[Jason Wilson]

44dbm is your target. You are at 37dbm now.  8dbm amplifier should take
care of any cable loss.

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:08 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:

> I'm looking at an IoT application where we're allowed 30W ERP.  The
> transmitter is 5W, so even with antenna gain I have room to amplify that.
>
> How do you count an amplifier in your link budget?  Just add the amp's
> tx gain and subtract connectors, or is there more to it than that?
>
> Strangely I've never used an amplifier.I've never had a legal
> application for one before.
>
> -Adam
>
>
> --
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Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

[Jason Wilson]

I read that as the 5w was with antenna. Chuck is correct. 7dbm antenna and
you are good to go.

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:33 AM Jason Wilson 
wrote:

> 44dbm is your target. You are at 37dbm now.  8dbm amplifier should take
> care of any cable loss.
>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:08 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
>> I'm looking at an IoT application where we're allowed 30W ERP.  The
>> transmitter is 5W, so even with antenna gain I have room to amplify that.
>>
>> How do you count an amplifier in your link budget?  Just add the amp's
>> tx gain and subtract connectors, or is there more to it than that?
>>
>> Strangely I've never used an amplifier.I've never had a legal
>> application for one before.
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>>
>> --
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>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
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[AFMUG] Valuline Antenna adapter

[Jason McKemie]

I have a SIAE link I'm looking to potentially replace with something else.
Currently using Valuline antennas - I'd like to re-use these for a new
link.  What are the options for doing this?  New interface plate?
Adapter?  Is this something that can be done on the tower?
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Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

[Robert Andrews]

But he said he gets 30 ERP not 30 EIRP where EIRP = 1.64 * ERP ( if he 
is actually allowed 30 ERP and not 30 EIRP ).   So that would be  49.2 
EIRP IF he is allowed 30 _ERP_..   so 49.2. watts would be another 2.15 
db..   9.85 dbm gain antenna.  Still no need for an amp...


Please check my math and assumptions, as I _always_ stick my hand up in 
class and then spit out the wrong answer...


On 07/12/2018 10:30 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Yep, that is how you do it.  30 watts EIRP is 44.7 dBm
5 watts is 37 dBm.  So 44.7 - 37 = 7.7 dB gain.

A 7.7 dBi antenna is pretty common.
After adding antenna gain, I don't see much room to amplify.
-Original Message- From: Adam Moffett Sent: Thursday, July 12, 
2018 11:06 AM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: [AFMUG] How to count 
amplifiers in link budget
I'm looking at an IoT application where we're allowed 30W ERP.  The 
transmitter is 5W, so even with antenna gain I have room to amplify that.


How do you count an amplifier in your link budget?  Just add the amp's 
tx gain and subtract connectors, or is there more to it than that?


Strangely I've never used an amplifier.I've never had a legal 
application for one before.


-Adam




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Re: [AFMUG] Valuline Antenna adapter

[Robert Andrews]

So you do your cad design in sketchup?

On 07/12/2018 11:09 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Something like this?
image
*From:* Jason McKemie
*Sent:* Thursday, July 12, 2018 11:55 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* [AFMUG] Valuline Antenna adapter
I have a SIAE link I'm looking to potentially replace with something 
else.  Currently using Valuline antennas - I'd like to re-use these for 
a new link.  What are the options for doing this?  New interface plate?  
Adapter?  Is this something that can be done on the tower?



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Re: [AFMUG] Valuline Antenna adapter

[chuck]

No, solidworks.  

-Original Message- 
From: Robert Andrews 
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 12:18 PM 
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Valuline Antenna adapter 


So you do your cad design in sketchup?

On 07/12/2018 11:09 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Something like this?
image
*From:* Jason McKemie
*Sent:* Thursday, July 12, 2018 11:55 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* [AFMUG] Valuline Antenna adapter
I have a SIAE link I'm looking to potentially replace with something 
else.  Currently using Valuline antennas - I'd like to re-use these for 
a new link.  What are the options for doing this?  New interface plate?  
Adapter?  Is this something that can be done on the tower?



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Re: [AFMUG] Valuline Antenna adapter

[Caleb Knauer]

Why are you replacing it?

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Jason McKemie
 wrote:
> I have a SIAE link I'm looking to potentially replace with something else.
> Currently using Valuline antennas - I'd like to re-use these for a new link.
> What are the options for doing this?  New interface plate?  Adapter?  Is
> this something that can be done on the tower?
>
> --
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>

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Re: [AFMUG] Service in SLC

[Caleb Knauer]

Cool thanks.

On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 8:58 PM, Sterling Jacobson  wrote:
> Senawave or Beehive might be able to connect you out there.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Caleb Knauer
> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 11:47 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: [AFMUG] Service in SLC
>
> Hi all,
>
> Looking for a 20-50Mbps business connection in Salt Lake City, about
> 15 minutes south of the airport. 5 static IP's required. Please send me an 
> offlist email for details.
>
> Thanks!
> Caleb
>
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Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

[Adam Moffett]

Yeah, I actually have 1000W ERP, my mistake.


On 7/12/2018 2:16 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
But he said he gets 30 ERP not 30 EIRP where EIRP = 1.64 * ERP ( if he 
is actually allowed 30 ERP and not 30 EIRP ).   So that would be 49.2 
EIRP IF he is allowed 30 _ERP_..   so 49.2. watts would be another 
2.15 db..   9.85 dbm gain antenna.  Still no need for an amp...


Please check my math and assumptions, as I _always_ stick my hand up 
in class and then spit out the wrong answer...


On 07/12/2018 10:30 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Yep, that is how you do it.  30 watts EIRP is 44.7 dBm
5 watts is 37 dBm.  So 44.7 - 37 = 7.7 dB gain.

A 7.7 dBi antenna is pretty common.
After adding antenna gain, I don't see much room to amplify.
-Original Message- From: Adam Moffett Sent: Thursday, July 
12, 2018 11:06 AM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: [AFMUG] How to count 
amplifiers in link budget
I'm looking at an IoT application where we're allowed 30W ERP. The 
transmitter is 5W, so even with antenna gain I have room to amplify 
that.


How do you count an amplifier in your link budget?  Just add the 
amp's tx gain and subtract connectors, or is there more to it than that?


Strangely I've never used an amplifier.I've never had a legal 
application for one before.


-Adam







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Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

[Brian Webster]

Remembering also that you will likely need a balanced path so if both ends
of the link don't have the amplification you may have a problem. Amps with a
preamplifier also included have noise figures that don't always give you a
realized gain on the receive side. Using antenna gain over just
amplification to reach the max legal power is always preferable if possible
as the gain benefits you on both receive and transmit. 

Thank You,
Brian Webster
Skype: Radiowebst
www.wirelessmapping.com
www.Broadband-Mapping.com

-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Robert Andrews
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 2:16 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

But he said he gets 30 ERP not 30 EIRP where EIRP = 1.64 * ERP ( if he 
is actually allowed 30 ERP and not 30 EIRP ).   So that would be  49.2 
EIRP IF he is allowed 30 _ERP_..   so 49.2. watts would be another 2.15 
db..   9.85 dbm gain antenna.  Still no need for an amp...

Please check my math and assumptions, as I _always_ stick my hand up in 
class and then spit out the wrong answer...

On 07/12/2018 10:30 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
> Yep, that is how you do it.  30 watts EIRP is 44.7 dBm
> 5 watts is 37 dBm.  So 44.7 - 37 = 7.7 dB gain.
> 
> A 7.7 dBi antenna is pretty common.
> After adding antenna gain, I don't see much room to amplify.
> -Original Message- From: Adam Moffett Sent: Thursday, July 12, 
> 2018 11:06 AM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: [AFMUG] How to count 
> amplifiers in link budget
> I'm looking at an IoT application where we're allowed 30W ERP.  The 
> transmitter is 5W, so even with antenna gain I have room to amplify that.
> 
> How do you count an amplifier in your link budget?  Just add the amp's 
> tx gain and subtract connectors, or is there more to it than that?
> 
> Strangely I've never used an amplifier.I've never had a legal 
> application for one before.
> 
> -Adam
> 
> 

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Re: [AFMUG] Valuline Antenna adapter

[Jason McKemie]

I had an end get hit by lightning, replaced it and now less than two years
later it looks like there is a hardware failure brewing on the new radio.
Tired of replacing them and their price went up by nearly 50% since I
originally bought the link.  Plus, now they want a few hundred dollars to
further troubleshoot the radio that appears to be on its way out.  Maybe
I'm too high maintenance, but I expect a bit more out of something that is
$3K+ a radio, and that I need to keep a full set to spare.  I will say that
they've been working fine otherwise.

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 1:54 PM, Caleb Knauer 
wrote:

> Why are you replacing it?
>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Jason McKemie
>  wrote:
> > I have a SIAE link I'm looking to potentially replace with something
> else.
> > Currently using Valuline antennas - I'd like to re-use these for a new
> link.
> > What are the options for doing this?  New interface plate?  Adapter?  Is
> > this something that can be done on the tower?
> >
> > --
> > AF mailing list
> > AF@af.afmug.com
> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >
>
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Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

[Adam Moffett]

Understood.  This is 700mhz A-Block, so I'm allowed 1000W ERP in one 
direction and 30W ERP in the other.  I hadn't thought it through yet 
when I talked about amping the 30W side.


My thinking was to use the higher power channel for downlink.  I'm 
looking at setting Tx power to +24, adding an amp which says +22 on the 
spec sheet, and a 10db omni.  That puts me around 400W before cable 
losses, might be 300W after cables and connectors depending on the 
specifics.  The spec sheet claims a noise figure of "<3db", and that 
seems reasonable as long as it's not a lie.


In this configuration the uplink might be up to 12db weaker than the 
downlink, but if I have the maximum modulation level down, then I'll 
still have something acceptable up.   Something like 500kbps x 200kbps 
in a 250khz channel.


-Adam


On 7/12/2018 2:57 PM, Brian Webster wrote:

Remembering also that you will likely need a balanced path so if both ends
of the link don't have the amplification you may have a problem. Amps with a
preamplifier also included have noise figures that don't always give you a
realized gain on the receive side. Using antenna gain over just
amplification to reach the max legal power is always preferable if possible
as the gain benefits you on both receive and transmit.

Thank You,
Brian Webster
Skype: Radiowebst
www.wirelessmapping.com
www.Broadband-Mapping.com

-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Robert Andrews
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 2:16 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

But he said he gets 30 ERP not 30 EIRP where EIRP = 1.64 * ERP ( if he
is actually allowed 30 ERP and not 30 EIRP ).   So that would be  49.2
EIRP IF he is allowed 30 _ERP_..   so 49.2. watts would be another 2.15
db..   9.85 dbm gain antenna.  Still no need for an amp...

Please check my math and assumptions, as I _always_ stick my hand up in
class and then spit out the wrong answer...

On 07/12/2018 10:30 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Yep, that is how you do it.  30 watts EIRP is 44.7 dBm
5 watts is 37 dBm.  So 44.7 - 37 = 7.7 dB gain.

A 7.7 dBi antenna is pretty common.
After adding antenna gain, I don't see much room to amplify.
-Original Message- From: Adam Moffett Sent: Thursday, July 12,
2018 11:06 AM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: [AFMUG] How to count
amplifiers in link budget
I'm looking at an IoT application where we're allowed 30W ERP.  The
transmitter is 5W, so even with antenna gain I have room to amplify that.

How do you count an amplifier in your link budget?  Just add the amp's
tx gain and subtract connectors, or is there more to it than that?

Strangely I've never used an amplifier.I've never had a legal
application for one before.

-Adam





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Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

[chuck]

3dB NF is nothing to crow about these days.  Lots of front ends and preamps 
are below 2 dB.  Even 1.5 is common.


-Original Message- 
From: Adam Moffett

Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 1:24 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

Understood.  This is 700mhz A-Block, so I'm allowed 1000W ERP in one
direction and 30W ERP in the other.  I hadn't thought it through yet
when I talked about amping the 30W side.

My thinking was to use the higher power channel for downlink.  I'm
looking at setting Tx power to +24, adding an amp which says +22 on the
spec sheet, and a 10db omni.  That puts me around 400W before cable
losses, might be 300W after cables and connectors depending on the
specifics.  The spec sheet claims a noise figure of "<3db", and that
seems reasonable as long as it's not a lie.

In this configuration the uplink might be up to 12db weaker than the
downlink, but if I have the maximum modulation level down, then I'll
still have something acceptable up.   Something like 500kbps x 200kbps
in a 250khz channel.

-Adam


On 7/12/2018 2:57 PM, Brian Webster wrote:

Remembering also that you will likely need a balanced path so if both ends
of the link don't have the amplification you may have a problem. Amps with 
a

preamplifier also included have noise figures that don't always give you a
realized gain on the receive side. Using antenna gain over just
amplification to reach the max legal power is always preferable if 
possible

as the gain benefits you on both receive and transmit.

Thank You,
Brian Webster
Skype: Radiowebst
www.wirelessmapping.com
www.Broadband-Mapping.com

-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Robert Andrews
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 2:16 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

But he said he gets 30 ERP not 30 EIRP where EIRP = 1.64 * ERP ( if he
is actually allowed 30 ERP and not 30 EIRP ).   So that would be  49.2
EIRP IF he is allowed 30 _ERP_..   so 49.2. watts would be another 2.15
db..   9.85 dbm gain antenna.  Still no need for an amp...

Please check my math and assumptions, as I _always_ stick my hand up in
class and then spit out the wrong answer...

On 07/12/2018 10:30 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Yep, that is how you do it.  30 watts EIRP is 44.7 dBm
5 watts is 37 dBm.  So 44.7 - 37 = 7.7 dB gain.

A 7.7 dBi antenna is pretty common.
After adding antenna gain, I don't see much room to amplify.
-Original Message- From: Adam Moffett Sent: Thursday, July 12,
2018 11:06 AM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: [AFMUG] How to count
amplifiers in link budget
I'm looking at an IoT application where we're allowed 30W ERP.  The
transmitter is 5W, so even with antenna gain I have room to amplify that.

How do you count an amplifier in your link budget?  Just add the amp's
tx gain and subtract connectors, or is there more to it than that?

Strangely I've never used an amplifier.I've never had a legal
application for one before.

-Adam





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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 



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Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

[Adam Moffett]

Good to know.

On 7/12/2018 3:30 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
3dB NF is nothing to crow about these days.  Lots of front ends and 
preamps are below 2 dB.  Even 1.5 is common.


-Original Message- From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 1:24 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

Understood.  This is 700mhz A-Block, so I'm allowed 1000W ERP in one
direction and 30W ERP in the other.  I hadn't thought it through yet
when I talked about amping the 30W side.

My thinking was to use the higher power channel for downlink.  I'm
looking at setting Tx power to +24, adding an amp which says +22 on the
spec sheet, and a 10db omni.  That puts me around 400W before cable
losses, might be 300W after cables and connectors depending on the
specifics.  The spec sheet claims a noise figure of "<3db", and that
seems reasonable as long as it's not a lie.

In this configuration the uplink might be up to 12db weaker than the
downlink, but if I have the maximum modulation level down, then I'll
still have something acceptable up.   Something like 500kbps x 200kbps
in a 250khz channel.

-Adam


On 7/12/2018 2:57 PM, Brian Webster wrote:
Remembering also that you will likely need a balanced path so if both 
ends
of the link don't have the amplification you may have a problem. Amps 
with a
preamplifier also included have noise figures that don't always give 
you a

realized gain on the receive side. Using antenna gain over just
amplification to reach the max legal power is always preferable if 
possible

as the gain benefits you on both receive and transmit.

Thank You,
Brian Webster
Skype: Radiowebst
www.wirelessmapping.com
www.Broadband-Mapping.com

-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Robert Andrews
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 2:16 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

But he said he gets 30 ERP not 30 EIRP where EIRP = 1.64 * ERP ( if he
is actually allowed 30 ERP and not 30 EIRP ).   So that would be  49.2
EIRP IF he is allowed 30 _ERP_..   so 49.2. watts would be another 2.15
db..   9.85 dbm gain antenna.  Still no need for an amp...

Please check my math and assumptions, as I _always_ stick my hand up in
class and then spit out the wrong answer...

On 07/12/2018 10:30 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Yep, that is how you do it.  30 watts EIRP is 44.7 dBm
5 watts is 37 dBm.  So 44.7 - 37 = 7.7 dB gain.

A 7.7 dBi antenna is pretty common.
After adding antenna gain, I don't see much room to amplify.
-Original Message- From: Adam Moffett Sent: Thursday, July 12,
2018 11:06 AM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: [AFMUG] How to count
amplifiers in link budget
I'm looking at an IoT application where we're allowed 30W ERP.  The
transmitter is 5W, so even with antenna gain I have room to amplify 
that.


How do you count an amplifier in your link budget?  Just add the amp's
tx gain and subtract connectors, or is there more to it than that?

Strangely I've never used an amplifier.I've never had a legal
application for one before.

-Adam








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Re: [AFMUG] Service in SLC

[Layne Sisk]

Sterling is right, if you still don't find what you need though reach out to me 
and I will find you a solution!

Layne Sisk
ServerPlus
801.426.8283, ext 102




   

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Caleb Knauer
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 12:56 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Service in SLC

Cool thanks.

On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 8:58 PM, Sterling Jacobson  wrote:
> Senawave or Beehive might be able to connect you out there.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Caleb Knauer
> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 11:47 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: [AFMUG] Service in SLC
>
> Hi all,
>
> Looking for a 20-50Mbps business connection in Salt Lake City, about
> 15 minutes south of the airport. 5 static IP's required. Please send me an 
> offlist email for details.
>
> Thanks!
> Caleb
>
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> AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

[Brian Webster]

Also keep in mind in the cellular world they used diversity antennas and 
pre-amps to make up for the lower return path power budget. Their radios have 
separate transmit and receive ports and antenna systems, they are not locked in 
to the one antenna half duplex mentality. Having a separate receive antenna or 
array that offers more gain than on the transmit side has worked for many years 
in that space. In the early cellular days when capacity and spectrum reuse was 
not an issue, it was common deployment practice to have both an Omni for the 
tower side to transmit and sectors with higher gain for receive to try and 
balance out the power budgets from the mobile units. The radios at the tower 
sites had separate ports for TX and RX.

Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com
www.Broadband-Mapping.com


-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 4:00 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

Good to know.

On 7/12/2018 3:30 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
> 3dB NF is nothing to crow about these days.  Lots of front ends and 
> preamps are below 2 dB.  Even 1.5 is common.
>
> -Original Message- From: Adam Moffett
> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 1:24 PM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget
>
> Understood.  This is 700mhz A-Block, so I'm allowed 1000W ERP in one
> direction and 30W ERP in the other.  I hadn't thought it through yet
> when I talked about amping the 30W side.
>
> My thinking was to use the higher power channel for downlink.  I'm
> looking at setting Tx power to +24, adding an amp which says +22 on the
> spec sheet, and a 10db omni.  That puts me around 400W before cable
> losses, might be 300W after cables and connectors depending on the
> specifics.  The spec sheet claims a noise figure of "<3db", and that
> seems reasonable as long as it's not a lie.
>
> In this configuration the uplink might be up to 12db weaker than the
> downlink, but if I have the maximum modulation level down, then I'll
> still have something acceptable up.   Something like 500kbps x 200kbps
> in a 250khz channel.
>
> -Adam
>
>
> On 7/12/2018 2:57 PM, Brian Webster wrote:
>> Remembering also that you will likely need a balanced path so if both 
>> ends
>> of the link don't have the amplification you may have a problem. Amps 
>> with a
>> preamplifier also included have noise figures that don't always give 
>> you a
>> realized gain on the receive side. Using antenna gain over just
>> amplification to reach the max legal power is always preferable if 
>> possible
>> as the gain benefits you on both receive and transmit.
>>
>> Thank You,
>> Brian Webster
>> Skype: Radiowebst
>> www.wirelessmapping.com
>> www.Broadband-Mapping.com
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Robert Andrews
>> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 2:16 PM
>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget
>>
>> But he said he gets 30 ERP not 30 EIRP where EIRP = 1.64 * ERP ( if he
>> is actually allowed 30 ERP and not 30 EIRP ).   So that would be  49.2
>> EIRP IF he is allowed 30 _ERP_..   so 49.2. watts would be another 2.15
>> db..   9.85 dbm gain antenna.  Still no need for an amp...
>>
>> Please check my math and assumptions, as I _always_ stick my hand up in
>> class and then spit out the wrong answer...
>>
>> On 07/12/2018 10:30 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>>> Yep, that is how you do it.  30 watts EIRP is 44.7 dBm
>>> 5 watts is 37 dBm.  So 44.7 - 37 = 7.7 dB gain.
>>>
>>> A 7.7 dBi antenna is pretty common.
>>> After adding antenna gain, I don't see much room to amplify.
>>> -Original Message- From: Adam Moffett Sent: Thursday, July 12,
>>> 2018 11:06 AM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: [AFMUG] How to count
>>> amplifiers in link budget
>>> I'm looking at an IoT application where we're allowed 30W ERP.  The
>>> transmitter is 5W, so even with antenna gain I have room to amplify 
>>> that.
>>>
>>> How do you count an amplifier in your link budget?  Just add the amp's
>>> tx gain and subtract connectors, or is there more to it than that?
>>>
>>> Strangely I've never used an amplifier.I've never had a legal
>>> application for one before.
>>>
>>> -Adam
>>>
>>>
>
>


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Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

[Chuck McCown]

I have heard tales of cyrogenic LNA with NF below 1 dB.

-Original Message- 
From: Brian Webster

Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 5:43 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

Also keep in mind in the cellular world they used diversity antennas and 
pre-amps to make up for the lower return path power budget. Their radios 
have separate transmit and receive ports and antenna systems, they are not 
locked in to the one antenna half duplex mentality. Having a separate 
receive antenna or array that offers more gain than on the transmit side has 
worked for many years in that space. In the early cellular days when 
capacity and spectrum reuse was not an issue, it was common deployment 
practice to have both an Omni for the tower side to transmit and sectors 
with higher gain for receive to try and balance out the power budgets from 
the mobile units. The radios at the tower sites had separate ports for TX 
and RX.


Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com
www.Broadband-Mapping.com


-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 4:00 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

Good to know.

On 7/12/2018 3:30 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

3dB NF is nothing to crow about these days.  Lots of front ends and
preamps are below 2 dB.  Even 1.5 is common.

-Original Message- From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 1:24 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

Understood.  This is 700mhz A-Block, so I'm allowed 1000W ERP in one
direction and 30W ERP in the other.  I hadn't thought it through yet
when I talked about amping the 30W side.

My thinking was to use the higher power channel for downlink.  I'm
looking at setting Tx power to +24, adding an amp which says +22 on the
spec sheet, and a 10db omni.  That puts me around 400W before cable
losses, might be 300W after cables and connectors depending on the
specifics.  The spec sheet claims a noise figure of "<3db", and that
seems reasonable as long as it's not a lie.

In this configuration the uplink might be up to 12db weaker than the
downlink, but if I have the maximum modulation level down, then I'll
still have something acceptable up.   Something like 500kbps x 200kbps
in a 250khz channel.

-Adam


On 7/12/2018 2:57 PM, Brian Webster wrote:

Remembering also that you will likely need a balanced path so if both
ends
of the link don't have the amplification you may have a problem. Amps
with a
preamplifier also included have noise figures that don't always give
you a
realized gain on the receive side. Using antenna gain over just
amplification to reach the max legal power is always preferable if
possible
as the gain benefits you on both receive and transmit.

Thank You,
Brian Webster
Skype: Radiowebst
www.wirelessmapping.com
www.Broadband-Mapping.com

-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Robert Andrews
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 2:16 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] How to count amplifiers in link budget

But he said he gets 30 ERP not 30 EIRP where EIRP = 1.64 * ERP ( if he
is actually allowed 30 ERP and not 30 EIRP ).   So that would be  49.2
EIRP IF he is allowed 30 _ERP_..   so 49.2. watts would be another 2.15
db..   9.85 dbm gain antenna.  Still no need for an amp...

Please check my math and assumptions, as I _always_ stick my hand up in
class and then spit out the wrong answer...

On 07/12/2018 10:30 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Yep, that is how you do it.  30 watts EIRP is 44.7 dBm
5 watts is 37 dBm.  So 44.7 - 37 = 7.7 dB gain.

A 7.7 dBi antenna is pretty common.
After adding antenna gain, I don't see much room to amplify.
-Original Message- From: Adam Moffett Sent: Thursday, July 12,
2018 11:06 AM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: [AFMUG] How to count
amplifiers in link budget
I'm looking at an IoT application where we're allowed 30W ERP.  The
transmitter is 5W, so even with antenna gain I have room to amplify
that.

How do you count an amplifier in your link budget?  Just add the amp's
tx gain and subtract connectors, or is there more to it than that?

Strangely I've never used an amplifier.I've never had a legal
application for one before.

-Adam








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