Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
I'd be very pleased if someone could port the dp9ik authentication protocol to 9legacy. -- David du Colombier -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-Md268ebc03be7431c29cb1d30 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
congrats for teaching the bot to create more email threads with new subjects. just what we need as a community. On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 4:55 PM Lucio De Re wrote: > > I guess we're on the same page, right up and including the fist fight(s). But > I think we are all entitled to be treated more courteously in a public forum > such as this, including not ascribing malice unless it is explicit. Being > touchy has plagued this forum just about forever, it would be nicer if > instead of calling out bad behaviour, it got the benefit of the doubt. I > accept that I was as guilty of that presumption as much as anyone who posted > after me. > > Lucio. > > On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 3:39 PM wrote: >> > >> > What I notice - correct me if I am mistaken - is that any comparison >> > between 9front and 9legacy seems to needle a few members (very few, there >> > are many names from that community that have not participated, >> > specifically the ones I know hand have long respectes, ask them) of the >> > 9front community that seem to take offence unless 9front is painted in a >> > better light. I guess that's permissible, but please mind your manners if >> > you choose to go that route, this is 9fans and 9front I believe has its >> > own discussion groups. >> > >> >> I offer you the perspective that this happens by rule when obviously wrong >> or ridicolous claims or demands about / of 9front are made. >> This is seen to further degrade the already quite degraded perspective >> it has within parts of the 9fans community. >> >> I don't think it is unreasonable for people who have invested a lot of effort >> into 9front and believe it to be something worthwhile to feel the urgency to >> defend it, or at the very least talk about it. >> >> I do think a bit more courtesy or less bad faith assumptions could >> be prescribed to certain individuals, and not only on the 9front side. >> >> Anyway, I propose such issues are best solved by a fist fight, therefore >> acknowledging the legacy of dispute resolution methods of our ancestors and >> fostering a more resilient and vibrant community that thrives on both change >> and tradition. > > > > -- > Lucio De Re > 2 Piet Retief St > Kestell (Eastern Free State) > 9860 South Africa > > Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 > Cell: +27 83 251 5824 > 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-Mfbb26bda0ed7e9efadcf9e76 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
> I suspect no-one wanted to maintain it (in 9front) I think you meant: I suspect no-one wanted to maintain it. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-Mc64391ded8c1eeadfa19aa14 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 12:59 PM Richard Miller <9f...@hamnavoe.com> wrote: > > From: o...@eigenstate.org > > ... > > keep in mind that it can literally be brute forced in an > > afternoon by a teenager[1][2]; even a gpu isn't needed to do > > this in a reasonable amount of time.[1] > > [citation needed][1] > there you are[1]. [1] http://felloff.net/usr/cinap_lenrek/newticket.txt -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-Macf821c0574d0acdaee773d9 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 2:26 PM hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 12:59 PM Richard Miller <9f...@hamnavoe.com> wrote: > > > From: o...@eigenstate.org > > > ... > > > keep in mind that it can literally be brute forced in an > > > afternoon by a teenager[1][2]; even a gpu isn't needed to do > > > this in a reasonable amount of time.[1] > > > > [citation needed][1] > > > > there you are[1]. > [1] http://felloff.net/usr/cinap_lenrek/newticket.txt I believe the citation that Richard was asking for was one demonstrating that p9sk1 could be broken by a teenager in an afternoon (which, to be fair to Ori, is likely just a bit of fun hyperbole meant to provide some flourish to an otherwise dry subject). The citation you provided is to an explanation of dp9ik, which while useful, only addresses what (I believe) Richard was referring to in passing, simply noting the small key size of DES and how the shared secret is vulnerable to dictionary attacks. I should note that a couple of years ago I talked to Eric Grosse about dp9ik and p9sk1. I'm sure he won't mind if I share that his (early) impression was that dp9ik is a strict improvement over p9sk1, and that p9sk1 should be phased out in favor of dp9ik. As a small quip, I do wish the name were different: c'mon guys, not _everything_ needs to be snarky. ?;-) - Dan C. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-Mcb61bde6ee99250df4da09fb Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
> explanation of dp9ik, which while useful, only > addresses what (I believe) Richard was referring to in passing, simply > noting the small key size of DES and how the shared secret is > vulnerable to dictionary attacks. i don't remember what richard was mentioning, but the small key size wasn't the only issue, the second issue is that this can be done completely offline. why do you say "only", what do you think is missing that should have been documented in addition to that? significant effort has been spent not only to come up with dp9ik and verify it but also to document it openly and suggest it's use repeatedly to the whole plan9 community (even non-9front-users). it's beyond me why more 9fans people are not taking this contribution at face value. > I should note that a couple of years ago I talked to Eric Grosse about > dp9ik and p9sk1. Who is Eric Grosse? > I do > wish the name were different: c'mon guys, not _everything_ needs to be > snarky. ?;-) I do wish there wasn't ever any reasons to ever be snarky to anybody in the whole plan9 community. But sometimes it's easier to make some jokes than to solve all perceived interpersonal issues of all involved people in the community. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-Mc643283b7a50651f3279cee1 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
it's YOUR fork, why aren't you doing it? On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 11:47 AM David du Colombier <0in...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I'd be very pleased if someone could port the > dp9ik authentication protocol to 9legacy. > > -- > David du Colombier -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-M50dc445eff38fdd058bd8bdc Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 3:36 PM hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: > > explanation of dp9ik, which while useful, only > > addresses what (I believe) Richard was referring to in passing, simply > > noting the small key size of DES and how the shared secret is > > vulnerable to dictionary attacks. > > i don't remember what richard was mentioning, but the small key size > wasn't the only issue, the second issue is that this can be done > completely offline. why do you say "only", what do you think is > missing that should have been documented in addition to that? Probably how a random teenager could break it in an afternoon. :-) > significant effort has been spent not only to come up with dp9ik and > verify it but also to document it openly and suggest it's use > repeatedly to the whole plan9 community (even non-9front-users). > > it's beyond me why more 9fans people are not taking this contribution > at face value. I wonder if you read the rest of my email > > I should note that a couple of years ago I talked to Eric Grosse about > > dp9ik and p9sk1. > > Who is Eric Grosse? https://n2vi.com/bio.html > > I do > > wish the name were different: c'mon guys, not _everything_ needs to be > > snarky. ?;-) > > I do wish there wasn't ever any reasons to ever be snarky to anybody > in the whole plan9 community. > > But sometimes it's easier to make some jokes than to solve all > perceived interpersonal issues of all involved people in the > community. Huh. - Dan C. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-M12607f08d1ba7baaf4dc46ec Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 3:52 PM hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: > it's YOUR fork, why aren't you doing it? For a simple reason: time. The work to integrate it in isn't technically that difficult, but requires time, which is always in short supply. - Dan C. > On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 11:47 AM David du Colombier <0in...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > I'd be very pleased if someone could port the > > dp9ik authentication protocol to 9legacy. > > > > -- > > David du Colombier -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-M909e62763fe790d21eb88c72 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
are you discontinuing 9legacy? On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 10:01 PM Dan Cross wrote: > > On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 3:52 PM hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: > > it's YOUR fork, why aren't you doing it? > > For a simple reason: time. > > The work to integrate it in isn't technically that difficult, but > requires time, which is always in short supply. > > - Dan C. > > > On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 11:47 AM David du Colombier <0in...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > I'd be very pleased if someone could port the > > > dp9ik authentication protocol to 9legacy. > > > > > > -- > > > David du Colombier -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-M2ad003b92c9eb23dc97171eb Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 4:05 PM hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: > are you discontinuing 9legacy? I'm not doing anything, just explaining why it hasn't happened. Hey! It's a nice day out. A bit chilly with some wind, but sunny. I don't know about you, but I'm going fishing. - Dan C. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-M0a433758862ca1b4a69e2e90 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
On 5/11/24 14:59, Dan Cross wrote: > On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 3:36 PM hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> explanation of dp9ik, which while useful, only >>> addresses what (I believe) Richard was referring to in passing, simply >>> noting the small key size of DES and how the shared secret is >>> vulnerable to dictionary attacks. >> >> i don't remember what richard was mentioning, but the small key size >> wasn't the only issue, the second issue is that this can be done >> completely offline. why do you say "only", what do you think is >> missing that should have been documented in addition to that? > > Probably how a random teenager could break it in an afternoon. :-) If we agree that: 1) p9sk1 allows the shared secret to be brute-forced offline. 2) The average consumer machine is fast enough to make a large amount of attempts in a short time, in other words triple DES is not computationally hard to brute force these days. I don't know how you don't see how this is trivial to do. A teenager can learn to download hashcat, all that is missing from this right now is some python script to get the encrypted shared secret from a running p9sk1 server. All the code for doing this is already written in C as part of the distribution, you just have to only do half the negotiation and break out. I think you vastly underestimate the resourcefulness of teenagers. I had previously stated I would publish the PoC that friends of mine in university built as part of their class, I have been asked to not do that so I will not. - moody -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-Mf9740abb168ade9f12c1caa5 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 4:17 PM Jacob Moody wrote: > On 5/11/24 14:59, Dan Cross wrote: > > On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 3:36 PM hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> explanation of dp9ik, which while useful, only > >>> addresses what (I believe) Richard was referring to in passing, simply > >>> noting the small key size of DES and how the shared secret is > >>> vulnerable to dictionary attacks. > >> > >> i don't remember what richard was mentioning, but the small key size > >> wasn't the only issue, the second issue is that this can be done > >> completely offline. why do you say "only", what do you think is > >> missing that should have been documented in addition to that? > > > > Probably how a random teenager could break it in an afternoon. :-) > > If we agree that: > > 1) p9sk1 allows the shared secret to be brute-forced offline. > 2) The average consumer machine is fast enough to make a large amount of > attempts in a short time, >in other words triple DES is not computationally hard to brute force these > days. > > I don't know how you don't see how this is trivial to do. > A teenager can learn to download hashcat, all that is missing from this right > now is some python > script to get the encrypted shared secret from a running p9sk1 server. All > the code for doing > this is already written in C as part of the distribution, you just have to > only do half the > negotiation and break out. I think you vastly underestimate the > resourcefulness of teenagers. > > I had previously stated I would publish the PoC that friends of mine in > university built > as part of their class, I have been asked to not do that so I will not. To be clear: _I'm_ not saying it can't be done. I don't know that it can be done in an _afternoon_; maybe a day or two, but I honestly don't know. I was just trying to clarify what (I think) Richard was asking for. - Dan C. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-Me442d3920e7aeed16791c3f8 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
> Hey! It's a nice day out. A bit chilly with some wind, but sunny. I > don't know about you, but I'm going fishing. oh, i guess you are not Fish? i confused you. why are you speaking for Fish though, it's his decision to put it into 9legacy, no? -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-Mb0fe5a0ea3d1a11f2e454296 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
Hiro, I hope you don't mind if I use your correspondence on 9fans to train a very annoying LLM. On Sat, May 11, 2024, 1:30 PM hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hey! It's a nice day out. A bit chilly with some wind, but sunny. I > > don't know about you, but I'm going fishing. > > oh, i guess you are not Fish? i confused you. why are you speaking for > Fish though, it's his decision to put it into 9legacy, no? -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-Mba709492bbbdbb5d57fd8505 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
i do mind. please do not. but thanks for this medium-to-low-quality trolling attempt. On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 11:00 PM Skip Tavakkolian wrote: > > Hiro, I hope you don't mind if I use your correspondence on 9fans to train a > very annoying LLM. > > On Sat, May 11, 2024, 1:30 PM hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > Hey! It's a nice day out. A bit chilly with some wind, but sunny. I >> > don't know about you, but I'm going fishing. >> >> oh, i guess you are not Fish? i confused you. why are you speaking for >> Fish though, it's his decision to put it into 9legacy, no? > > 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-M3f9bb8085132822cbf7d7fd3 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
Sorry, that was just a courtesy. But don't worry I'll name it after you and another comedic hero Don Rickles. On Sat, May 11, 2024, 2:05 PM hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: > i do mind. please do not. but thanks for this medium-to-low-quality > trolling attempt. > > On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 11:00 PM Skip Tavakkolian > wrote: > > > > Hiro, I hope you don't mind if I use your correspondence on 9fans to > train a very annoying LLM. > > > > On Sat, May 11, 2024, 1:30 PM hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > Hey! It's a nice day out. A bit chilly with some wind, but sunny. I > >> > don't know about you, but I'm going fishing. > >> > >> oh, i guess you are not Fish? i confused you. why are you speaking for > >> Fish though, it's his decision to put it into 9legacy, no? > > > > 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options > Permalink -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-M45c3b01b264a1e2ef02dac4b Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
Let me explain my intent and elaborate on my point of view. I started a new thread to enhance the signal-to-noise ratio. It's easy for a thread to become cluttered with multiple issues, so I believe creating separate threads for distinct concerns helps streamline communication and keeps discussions focused. As a hobbyist, I see we all share a passion for Plan 9 and its development. Enhancing collaboration between communities would benefit everyone involved, and potentially enhance decorum on 9fans. I am curious to gauge whether there is any interest in activities that could facilitate positive teamwork, foster stronger connections, and break down barriers between communities. Fostering discord among communities seems to only perpetuate more discord. In my mind, seeking to improve collaboration between communities seemed, and still seems, worthwhile. As a hobbyist, I find myself pondering: What motivates individuals to participate in 9fans if not for a genuine interest in supporting the Plan 9 community? Vic On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 01:26, hiro wrote: > congrats for teaching the bot to create more email threads with new > subjects. just what we need as a community. > > On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 4:55 PM Lucio De Re wrote: >> >> I guess we're on the same page, right up and including the fist fight(s). >> But I think we are all entitled to be treated more courteously in a public >> forum such as this, including not ascribing malice unless it is explicit. >> Being touchy has plagued this forum just about forever, it would be nicer if >> instead of calling out bad behaviour, it got the benefit of the doubt. I >> accept that I was as guilty of that presumption as much as anyone who posted >> after me. >> >> Lucio. >> >> On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 3:39 PM wrote: >>> > >>> > What I notice - correct me if I am mistaken - is that any comparison >>> > between 9front and 9legacy seems to needle a few members (very few, there >>> > are many names from that community that have not participated, >>> > specifically the ones I know hand have long respectes, ask them) of the >>> > 9front community that seem to take offence unless 9front is painted in a >>> > better light. I guess that's permissible, but please mind your manners if >>> > you choose to go that route, this is 9fans and 9front I believe has its >>> > own discussion groups. >>> > >>> >>> I offer you the perspective that this happens by rule when obviously wrong >>> or ridicolous claims or demands about / of 9front are made. >>> This is seen to further degrade the already quite degraded perspective >>> it has within parts of the 9fans community. >>> >>> I don't think it is unreasonable for people who have invested a lot of >>> effort >>> into 9front and believe it to be something worthwhile to feel the urgency to >>> defend it, or at the very least talk about it. >>> >>> I do think a bit more courtesy or less bad faith assumptions could >>> be prescribed to certain individuals, and not only on the 9front side. >>> >>> Anyway, I propose such issues are best solved by a fist fight, therefore >>> acknowledging the legacy of dispute resolution methods of our ancestors and >>> fostering a more resilient and vibrant community that thrives on both change >>> and tradition. >> >> >> >> -- >> Lucio De Re >> 2 Piet Retief St >> Kestell (Eastern Free State) >> 9860 South Africa >> >> Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 >> Cell: +27 83 251 5824 >> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M526c8c293297541ee0ff6c0d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
just send the code then On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 12:22 AM wrote: > > Let me explain my intent and elaborate on my point of view. I started a new > thread to enhance the signal-to-noise ratio. It's easy for a thread to become > cluttered with multiple issues, so I believe creating separate threads for > distinct concerns helps streamline communication and keeps discussions > focused. > > As a hobbyist, I see we all share a passion for Plan 9 and its development. > Enhancing collaboration between communities would benefit everyone involved, > and potentially enhance decorum on 9fans. I am curious to gauge whether > there is any interest in activities that could facilitate positive teamwork, > foster stronger connections, and break down barriers between communities. > > Fostering discord among communities seems to only perpetuate more discord. > In my mind, seeking to improve collaboration between communities seemed, and > still seems, worthwhile. > > As a hobbyist, I find myself pondering: What motivates individuals to > participate in 9fans if not for a genuine interest in supporting the Plan 9 > community? > > Vic > > > On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 01:26, hiro wrote: > > congrats for teaching the bot to create more email threads with new > > subjects. just what we need as a community. > > > > On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 4:55 PM Lucio De Re wrote: > >> > >> I guess we're on the same page, right up and including the fist fight(s). > >> But I think we are all entitled to be treated more courteously in a public > >> forum such as this, including not ascribing malice unless it is explicit. > >> Being touchy has plagued this forum just about forever, it would be nicer > >> if instead of calling out bad behaviour, it got the benefit of the doubt. > >> I accept that I was as guilty of that presumption as much as anyone who > >> posted after me. > >> > >> Lucio. > >> > >> On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 3:39 PM wrote: > >>> > > >>> > What I notice - correct me if I am mistaken - is that any comparison > >>> > between 9front and 9legacy seems to needle a few members (very few, > >>> > there are many names from that community that have not participated, > >>> > specifically the ones I know hand have long respectes, ask them) of the > >>> > 9front community that seem to take offence unless 9front is painted in > >>> > a better light. I guess that's permissible, but please mind your > >>> > manners if you choose to go that route, this is 9fans and 9front I > >>> > believe has its own discussion groups. > >>> > > >>> > >>> I offer you the perspective that this happens by rule when obviously wrong > >>> or ridicolous claims or demands about / of 9front are made. > >>> This is seen to further degrade the already quite degraded perspective > >>> it has within parts of the 9fans community. > >>> > >>> I don't think it is unreasonable for people who have invested a lot of > >>> effort > >>> into 9front and believe it to be something worthwhile to feel the urgency > >>> to > >>> defend it, or at the very least talk about it. > >>> > >>> I do think a bit more courtesy or less bad faith assumptions could > >>> be prescribed to certain individuals, and not only on the 9front side. > >>> > >>> Anyway, I propose such issues are best solved by a fist fight, therefore > >>> acknowledging the legacy of dispute resolution methods of our ancestors > >>> and > >>> fostering a more resilient and vibrant community that thrives on both > >>> change > >>> and tradition. > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Lucio De Re > >> 2 Piet Retief St > >> Kestell (Eastern Free State) > >> 9860 South Africa > >> > >> Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 > >> Cell: +27 83 251 5824 > >> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M5a041b89084f4aff90199e84 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
Perhaps adopting this mindset could be beneficial. When developing a feature, it's worth considering its potential for portability and usefulness to other communities. Vic On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 07:27, hiro wrote: > just send the code then > > On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 12:22 AM wrote: >> >> Let me explain my intent and elaborate on my point of view. I started a new >> thread to enhance the signal-to-noise ratio. It's easy for a thread to >> become cluttered with multiple issues, so I believe creating separate >> threads for distinct concerns helps streamline communication and keeps >> discussions focused. >> >> As a hobbyist, I see we all share a passion for Plan 9 and its development. >> Enhancing collaboration between communities would benefit everyone involved, >> and potentially enhance decorum on 9fans. I am curious to gauge whether >> there is any interest in activities that could facilitate positive teamwork, >> foster stronger connections, and break down barriers between communities. >> >> Fostering discord among communities seems to only perpetuate more discord. >> In my mind, seeking to improve collaboration between communities seemed, and >> still seems, worthwhile. >> >> As a hobbyist, I find myself pondering: What motivates individuals to >> participate in 9fans if not for a genuine interest in supporting the Plan 9 >> community? >> >> Vic >> >> >> On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 01:26, hiro wrote: >> > congrats for teaching the bot to create more email threads with new >> > subjects. just what we need as a community. >> > >> > On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 4:55 PM Lucio De Re wrote: >> >> >> >> I guess we're on the same page, right up and including the fist fight(s). >> >> But I think we are all entitled to be treated more courteously in a >> >> public forum such as this, including not ascribing malice unless it is >> >> explicit. Being touchy has plagued this forum just about forever, it >> >> would be nicer if instead of calling out bad behaviour, it got the >> >> benefit of the doubt. I accept that I was as guilty of that presumption >> >> as much as anyone who posted after me. >> >> >> >> Lucio. >> >> >> >> On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 3:39 PM wrote: >> >>> > >> >>> > What I notice - correct me if I am mistaken - is that any comparison >> >>> > between 9front and 9legacy seems to needle a few members (very few, >> >>> > there are many names from that community that have not participated, >> >>> > specifically the ones I know hand have long respectes, ask them) of >> >>> > the 9front community that seem to take offence unless 9front is >> >>> > painted in a better light. I guess that's permissible, but please mind >> >>> > your manners if you choose to go that route, this is 9fans and 9front >> >>> > I believe has its own discussion groups. >> >>> > >> >>> >> >>> I offer you the perspective that this happens by rule when obviously >> >>> wrong >> >>> or ridicolous claims or demands about / of 9front are made. >> >>> This is seen to further degrade the already quite degraded perspective >> >>> it has within parts of the 9fans community. >> >>> >> >>> I don't think it is unreasonable for people who have invested a lot of >> >>> effort >> >>> into 9front and believe it to be something worthwhile to feel the >> >>> urgency to >> >>> defend it, or at the very least talk about it. >> >>> >> >>> I do think a bit more courtesy or less bad faith assumptions could >> >>> be prescribed to certain individuals, and not only on the 9front side. >> >>> >> >>> Anyway, I propose such issues are best solved by a fist fight, therefore >> >>> acknowledging the legacy of dispute resolution methods of our ancestors >> >>> and >> >>> fostering a more resilient and vibrant community that thrives on both >> >>> change >> >>> and tradition. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Lucio De Re >> >> 2 Piet Retief St >> >> Kestell (Eastern Free State) >> >> 9860 South Africa >> >> >> >> Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 >> >> Cell: +27 83 251 5824 >> >> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options >> >> Permalink -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M85b60529f8d0c8789138465a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
I've gone ahead and made a repository[0] for an up to date fossil* for 9front. I didn't have to do more then clone the 4e repository, apply the 9legacy patches and type mk. Took all of 10 minutes. Testing is left as an exercise for the reader. * No warranty given or implied. [0] http://only9fans.com/moody/fossil/HEAD/info.html On 5/11/24 19:43, o...@eigenstate.org wrote: > As far as I can tell, 9front doesn't have a problem > on this side; we just imported the Power64 compilers, > have working versions of risc64, etc, all pulled in > from the 9legacy world. > > The work to port usually ranges between negligible > and trivial. > > As far as I can tell, the only thing preventing 9front > changes from making their way back to 9legacy is a lack > of hands to do the work. > > And while I'm happy to lend a hand, help debug, and even > make trivial changes to enhance portability, I personally > don't care to spend time porting software to a system I > don't intend to use. > > tl;dr: you need people doing the work before you can try > to organize them; the way to get people doing the work is > to bootstrap it by doing work and showing value. > > Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm: >> Perhaps adopting this mindset could be beneficial. When developing a >> feature, it's worth considering its potential for portability and usefulness >> to other communities. >> >> Vic >> >> On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 07:27, hiro wrote: >>> just send the code then >>> >>> On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 12:22 AM wrote: Let me explain my intent and elaborate on my point of view. I started a new thread to enhance the signal-to-noise ratio. It's easy for a thread to become cluttered with multiple issues, so I believe creating separate threads for distinct concerns helps streamline communication and keeps discussions focused. As a hobbyist, I see we all share a passion for Plan 9 and its development. Enhancing collaboration between communities would benefit everyone involved, and potentially enhance decorum on 9fans. I am curious to gauge whether there is any interest in activities that could facilitate positive teamwork, foster stronger connections, and break down barriers between communities. Fostering discord among communities seems to only perpetuate more discord. In my mind, seeking to improve collaboration between communities seemed, and still seems, worthwhile. As a hobbyist, I find myself pondering: What motivates individuals to participate in 9fans if not for a genuine interest in supporting the Plan 9 community? Vic On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 01:26, hiro wrote: > congrats for teaching the bot to create more email threads with new > subjects. just what we need as a community. > > On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 4:55 PM Lucio De Re wrote: >> >> I guess we're on the same page, right up and including the fist >> fight(s). But I think we are all entitled to be treated more courteously >> in a public forum such as this, including not ascribing malice unless it >> is explicit. Being touchy has plagued this forum just about forever, it >> would be nicer if instead of calling out bad behaviour, it got the >> benefit of the doubt. I accept that I was as guilty of that presumption >> as much as anyone who posted after me. >> >> Lucio. >> >> On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 3:39 PM wrote: What I notice - correct me if I am mistaken - is that any comparison between 9front and 9legacy seems to needle a few members (very few, there are many names from that community that have not participated, specifically the ones I know hand have long respectes, ask them) of the 9front community that seem to take offence unless 9front is painted in a better light. I guess that's permissible, but please mind your manners if you choose to go that route, this is 9fans and 9front I believe has its own discussion groups. >>> >>> I offer you the perspective that this happens by rule when obviously >>> wrong >>> or ridicolous claims or demands about / of 9front are made. >>> This is seen to further degrade the already quite degraded perspective >>> it has within parts of the 9fans community. >>> >>> I don't think it is unreasonable for people who have invested a lot of >>> effort >>> into 9front and believe it to be something worthwhile to feel the >>> urgency to >>> defend it, or at the very least talk about it. >>> >>> I do think a bit more courtesy or less bad faith assumptions could >>> be prescribed to certain individuals, and not only on the 9front side. >>> >>> Anyway, I propose such issues are best solved by a fist fight, therefore >>> acknowledging the legacy of dispute resolution methods of our a
