Ray, With this batch of posts about lithium batteriem and several mentions of XW inverters and overcharging, I just have to chime in with my experience with one I installed and one installed by someone else. Both were charging 48V L16 wet cell batteries. In both cases with charge settings double checked and triple checked, I had both shoot past the 57.2 volt absorb setting and destroyed the batteries. In one case a battery blew its top off. The other we caught in time and shut it down. That one had some bad cells in 3 strings of 8 (not the one I installed) and when I arrived there the room was HOT from the boiling batteries. I replaced them with 2 strings of 8 and though I was skeptical about the charge rate being stable, left it to the owner to monitor. That was last year and he has recently called to have me check a potential overcharging issue. The other one I installed with 8 L16 batteries in a grid tie application and the after several years of working properly suddenly started overcharging out of control. WHen the customer called saying that the batteries were overheating, I told him to switch the inverter to bypass and shut all the DC switches off. I was at the Midwest Enegy Fair and not able to check it out right away. When I returned, I filled the batteries up and turned the system on and the voltage shot up past 60 then 65 volts and I shut it down. Fast forward 2 years... Schneider techs finally admitted that there was a firmware problem and after much agrivation getting the firmware updated with no internet and poor phone coverage, got it back working OK. Fast forward again 2 more years, problem is back. I have the system set to charge at 1 amp and am able to at least keep the inverter on to sell his solar power. Ready to start round 3 with Schneider, this time with internet and good phone service By the way, I have never had overcharge issues with Outback unless my settings were too high. Someone mentioned lack of overcharge protection on some Lithium BMS's. I know for a fact that the Fortress E-flex does when I forgot to change from very high lead acid settings on the Outback Radian when installing the Fortress batteries. They nicely shut down at 60 volts and turned back on after I stopped the overcharge. John Blittersdorf
On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 12:17 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh > batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off > grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the > barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process has not been > smooth. It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, > and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept > used Li+ batteries for shipment. To their credit, tech support has been > knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site. > > Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after > several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. > (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer > started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the > batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with > Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger. I > checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v. By the time > I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge > current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but > strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals. It was not > usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no > loads. > > Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage > event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback > FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi > integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they > just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed > = customer's fault. I think it failed because of the voltage differential > between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage. If the BMS > can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on > industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications. > Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off > grid; its a tough gig. > > How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu > on this list? Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over > voltage events. Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide, > so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their > batteries. > > So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have > cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set. That's > approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*. Simpliphi is saying > they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen. > The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in > sub zero weather at 9000 ft. Also, why would we want to reinstall more of > these, without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of > years? > > In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a > complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, or > with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu. I thought I was > providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead acid > batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs. It's 2024, but > lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite > robust and predictable. Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning > signs beforehand. They also can handle below freezing weather, and I am > just not a fan of the whole '*battery heating do it yourself off Ebay > with pet heaters'* BS either. > > *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.* It seems to work fine for folks > that don't rely on it, like GTB. > > At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off > of lead acid. Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We > were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under the > guise that this was NOT a *'Fly by night/ made in China*' offering. > Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime. I hate being > wrong. I can only pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't > start failing on my watch. > > I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give Simpliphi a > chance to make this right. However, this week I heard their "diagnosis", > and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it was time. <rant off> > > Sincerely, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS > failure/warranty/fix/replacement. > > Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM. > > I guess its something else we need to check on. > > Jay > > > > On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an > Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of course > East Penn is good to work with. My understanding is that they do work with > the three phase Sol-Ark inverters. > > Brad > > On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Pals: >> >> >> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad? >> >> >> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka >> >> >> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated >> lead-acid batteries. >> >> >> William >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. 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