Dang,
Slow learner but I got it now. I did some research and its
pretty fascinating. Thanks
Bill
On 1/28/2022 6:28 AM, Jay wrote:
Hi Bill
Ok I’ll trybto explain 1 more time.
Let’s take your example.
Lake level at 100’, top of dam at 143’ output of the pipe at 0’
The pipe is sch 80 steel,totally filled with water, no air. There is
a check valve at the lake side which will allow lake water in but not
out, with the pipe intake below water level, and there is a valve at
the other end.
When you open the valve at the bottom, that 143’ of water will start
to move out of the bottom of the pipe. It will be pulling up on the
43’ from the top of dam down to the water. 33’ down from the dam top
on the lake side it will turn to vacuum leaving 10’ of water in the
pipe. The other 33’ above it will siphon over the top of the dam and
slowly make its way down the pipe.
It cannot pull more than 33’ at sea level. Just the way it is.
You can find good YouTube videos of water “boiling”at room temperature
under a vacuum, and that’s what happens in that pipe. That boiling
means that the water is no longer a liquid but a gas.
Jay
On Jan 27, 2022, at 8:09 PM, frenergy <frene...@psln.com> wrote:
This is good, I'm not yet willing to accept egg-defeat. In my
previously described scenario, the atmospheric pressure does not play
a role because I'm not evacuating the air-filled pipe with the
suction side of a pump which /would/ rely on atmospheric pressure to
fill the pipe with water as the vacuum increases inside the pipe.
In my scenario the pipe going over the ridge is filled
with water from the discharge side of a pump, it could be filled from
anywhere in the pipe but there must be an exhaust only air vent at
the highest point of the pipe. Both ends of the pipe must not allow
any air in and one end of the pipe must be lower than the other.
Because we are not dealing with a mere 1 atmosphere of pressure (or
vacuum in this case), the "pull" of the water on the lower side of
this pipe will cause tremendous crushing pressure on the _outside_ of
this pipe that's drawing out of the well. I think the physics is
right but I'm not sure how practical it is. The pipe has to be
absolutely air-tight, completely full of water and extremely strong.
Now I'm really sticking my neck out. There's gotta be an
old physics teacher out there....help!
Bill
On 1/27/2022 6:14 PM, Jay wrote:
Hi Bill
Sorry about the egg
Here is some actual info to confirm what I and others have said.
You cannot vacuum water any more than 33’ at sea level.
https://www.nwcg.gov/course/ffm/squirt-water/35-drafting-guidelines
Jay
On Jan 27, 2022, at 5:34 PM, frenergy <frene...@psln.com> wrote:
OK, I'll gamble some egg on my face. In this case though, you
would not be "pulling a vacuum" with air (a gas) involved. If you
can fill the entire pipe with a liquid (water), the water that's
down slope of the water in the well on the other side of the ridge
it would pull the water out of the well and up over that ridge /as
long as/ the pipe exit is below the dynamic water level in the well
and the pipe's intake.
The caveat: the pipe would have to be filled by pumping
out of the well (one time to set-up this siphon) and the exit end
of the pipe would have to be closed to be able to fill the pipe
/completely/, which would require an air vent (exhaust vent only,
not intake) at the highest point of the pipe going over the ridge.
A valve would also be required at the exit end for flow control and
prevent the siphon from drawing the well dry. The pipe would have
to rated to handle the crushing force of the vacuum being pulled on
the uphill section of pipe after it left the well. There could
absolutely not be any leaks in the pipe.
I hope my seat-of-the-pants physics is working today.
Bill
Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
On 1/27/2022 2:28 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote:
Yes, but if the rise is greater than about 30 feet (25 feet even)
the water head is greater than atmospheric and the water will draw
a vacuum in the pipe. These numbers depend upon the location
(elevation) and temperature of the water.
for example at 15,000 feet the atmosphere is about 1/2 or sea
level, meaning the water column will break at 15 feet of head.
(from my high school physics, this is the scale height) so that at
7500 feet the water column is a maximum of 3/4 x 30 feet or 22
feet. this is from memory and mine is not so good.
On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 3:51 PM William Miller
<will...@millersolar.com> wrote:
Colleagues:
All of our water pumping customers to date have been pumping
water to tanks higher in elevation than the well-head. Just
now I am looking at a system pumping to a pond that is lower
than the well-head and lower even than the bottom of the
well. The 300’ well has the head at 1200’ elevation and
pumping to a pond at 800’ elevation. The line goes over a
1500’ ridge. If there were nothing impeding the water flow,
would it not siphon to the pond?
Has anyone seen the basic physics available being used to
advantage?
Thanks in advance.
William
Miller Solar
17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
CA Lic. 773985
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon>
Virus-free. www.avast.com
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link>
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try
the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org
List Address:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
--
Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
www.frenergy.net
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
