Hi All, I talked to Sol-Ark again yesterday and thought this was certainly worth sharing: For this particular design, there is a whole house generator. For generators over 10kw (this one is 13kw), they recommend keeping the generator in its existing ATS, and feeding it in through the grid connection. So when grid is up, grid power will be available, and when the grid is down, then the inverter can start the generator for generator power if need be.
This then frees up the generator input for the AC coupled solar. With only the AC coupled solar on the GEN input, there is better tracking of the solar on the monitoring platform, because there is a designated input for it. Plus, with a firmware update that they just released, the inverter can now open the GEN input when it calls for the generator. So essentially, the inverter is now responsible for cutting off the solar input when the generator is on. Cheers, Dave On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 9:06 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridso...@sti.net> wrote: > Thanks! I thought this was for Offgrid and that was my mistake. > > Will it run a 15A table saw without losing power, or was that just too > much expertise? I will wait 3 years on anything that is suppose to replace > what I already use. I have a low opinion of the all in one for Offgrid > anyways. Especially a non low frequency design. Maybe time will change my > opinion. Thanks for the info! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/> > e-mail offgridso...@sti.net <offgridso...@sti.net> > text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 7 May 2021 17:48:59 -0700, Jeff Clearwater < > je...@villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > > Dave A. - Sol-Arks' "GEN" breaker can be used for 1 of 3 operations only > - Generator, AC Coupling OR Smart Load (Load Shedding) So when you are > grid-interactive (which takes up your GRID breaker) and you have PV and a > Generator - the way to go is to have no AC Coupling - put the Grid and Gen > where they belong and enjoy the high efficiency and smart control of DC > Coupling, Time of Use control (for the Genny,the Grid and the Batteries) > - all in the mid to high 90's efficiency that the Sol-Ark provides. > > I know Dave T that you already have an installed Enphase system that > probably needs to be Rapid Shutdown compliant as well AND that you have a > whole house genny - however - I still would take a strong look at the > economic tradeoffs of rewiring the array to DC - (could install Tigo RS) - > and splitting the whole house Gen output to the Sol-Ark and probably > existing Transfer switch. We are just saying - now you are utilizing your > equipment to the max! May not be economically feasible labor and > additional hardware wise in this situation. But I surely would do the math > and look at that tradeoff seriously - perhaps give that option to your > customer to make the economic decision - would result in long term happy > customer and most energy utilized with least fuel costs. > > I'll let that case rest! Gees! all you asked for was some relay advice! > See what you get with this List!? too much expertise! :) > > Have fun, > > Jeff C. > Village Power Design > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <offgridso...@sti.net> > May 7, 2021 at 3:25 PM > > I do not know much about Sol-Arc, but one can AC couple and DC couple with > a Radian or XW. The genset is on the genset input where it belongs. > > For Offgrid AC coupling is just another way to damage a battery or genset > that does not need to be there. I suppose in a really large microgrid with > many houses and a skilled person on site, it could be used as a second > best method to DC coupling everything. > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar"we go where powerlines > don't"http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>e-mail offgridso...@sti.net > <offgridso...@sti.net>text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 7 May 2021 12:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski > <ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> <ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> > wrote: > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jason Szumlanski <ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> > May 7, 2021 at 9:21 AM > I like the idea of some small amount of AC Coupled PV for off-grid systems > when there is a known consistent daytime load. Around here the worst case > scenario involves afternoon air conditioning in summer, so some WSW-facing > AC coupled PV is an efficient way to cover that load and go into darkness > with full batteries. > > If I understand things correctly, with a Sol-Ark you can simultaneously do > AC coupling on the GEN input and DC coupling on the MPPTs and use the GRID > input for the generator. > > Jason > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Tedeyan <d...@sungineersolar.com> > May 7, 2021 at 8:41 AM > I would certainly agree with you all that AC coupled for off-grid is not > the best design choice. But just for clarification, this is a grid-tied > system where there is already an Enphase M215 system and a whole house > generator set up. > Cheers, > Dave > > > > -- > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > [image: Sungineer Solar] > 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Cell: 607-288-2898 > www.sungineersolar.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jerry Shafer <jerrysgarag...@gmail.com> > May 7, 2021 at 8:10 AM > I have to agree with Dave on this, complex and off grid generally are not > good together, l sugest backing up and you might consider a redesign, dump > enphase, go directly in to the inverter DC side, now a gen set back up will > work. Your spending more time and effort going in a bad direction. AC > coupling for resi is not a great solution to start with and Solark even say > that. KISS is better > Jerry > NABCEP PV Inspector > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <offgridso...@sti.net> > May 6, 2021 at 7:33 AM > > I would not do any of this for an offgrid client. It is against the rule > of less is more. The whole design is flawed in my opinion. > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar"we go where powerlines > don't"http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>e-mail offgridso...@sti.net > <offgridso...@sti.net>text 209 813 0060* > > On Tue, 4 May 2021 19:24:13 -0400, Dave Tedeyan <d...@sungineersolar.com> > <d...@sungineersolar.com> wrote: > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Tedeyan <d...@sungineersolar.com> > May 4, 2021 at 4:24 PM > I suppose the question here is - which is the worse failure mode? > A. Solar turning off until an electrician can fix it. > OR > B. Not knowing the contactor failed until it does not open when the > generator turns on and running the risk that the solar backfeeds the > generator and breaks it. > > For off-grid maybe A would be more of a concern. But for grid tied, I > would think option B would be worse. > > Does anyone have a fail safe method of doing this? > > Cheers, > Dave > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Chris Schaefer <ch...@solarandwindfx.com> > May 4, 2021 at 1:41 PM > Jason, > > A valid concern which is why I always wire them as powered open so if > there is a failure it would transition closed or not open. > > Christopher > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer's > <http:www.solarandwindfx.com> > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > <http://www.solarandwindfx.com> ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com > <ch...@solarandwindfx.com>* > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jason Szumlanski <ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> > May 4, 2021 at 1:03 PM > What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor that > is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. It's not a > failsafe solution. > > Jason > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Drake <drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> > May 4, 2021 at 12:08 PM > P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback > literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no > complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V > contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly > expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal. > > At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote: > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org > May 4, 2021 at 7:02 AM > Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the > 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the > contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters > through the contacts from common to N/C. > > --- > > > > > On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Tedeyan <d...@sungineersolar.com> > May 3, 2021 at 7:26 AM > Hi All, > > I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery > backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC > coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark > about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule > to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the > issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. > > I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the > solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, > although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This > seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is > needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > [image: Sungineer Solar] > 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Cell: 607-288-2898 > www.sungineersolar.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Dave Tedeyan, PE* [image: Sungineer Solar] 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 Cell: 607-288-2898 www.sungineersolar.com
_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
