Wrenches: Well now that the NFPA has acknowledged that GFDI protected circuits do not solidly ground the “grounded“ conductor, and we know they can’t be white in color, it begs the next question: Should these sort-of-grounded grounded conductors be switched and over-current protected?
The manual for the Schneider charge controller shows the negative (or referenced) switched on one page and not switched on another. Outback FM 100 manual shows the negative not switched. Anyone have an argument either way? William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Jun 13, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Kent Osterberg <k...@coveoregon.com> wrote: > > James, > > Here's the code reference: 2017 690.31(B)(1). Only solidly grounded PV system > conductors shall be marked in accordance with 200.6 (white or gray). > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 6/13/2020 5:56 PM, James Jarvis wrote: >> Brian, thank you very much. With your hint of "functional ground" I can >> clearly see that I am not allowed to have those be white wires. >> >> Now time for me to incur the full wrath by daring to question the infinite >> wisdom of the "highly qualified individual" from the state. >> >> (all kinds of fun stuff from this guy. Got another violation for having a >> donut type current transformer over a line voltage wire. He said that wasn't >> allowed.) >> >> Thank you, >> >> -James Jefferson Jarvis >> APRS World, LLC >> +1-507-454-2727 >> >> (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) >> >> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 17:41 Brian Mehalic <br...@solarenergy.org> wrote: >>> Change in 2017 to “functional grounded” was to clarify this - it’s not >>> solid when it is thru a fuse or breaker than can be interrupted either in >>> the event of a ground-fault or if the breaker is intentionally opened. 2017 >>> makes it clear that there are very few solidly grounded systems (2 or less >>> PV source circuits, not touching a building the only case it is allowed). >>> Pardon any incorrect language as I don’t have my code book, but I do think >>> the 2017 NEC® makes it very clear, including in the definition of function >>> grounded, that those conductors cannot be white or gray, regardless of if >>> the system has a transformer-based or TL inverter or a CC with integrated >>> or an external GF breaker/fuse. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> > On Jun 13, 2020, at 3:05 PM, greg egan <g...@remotepowerinc.com> wrote: >>> > >>> > Jim, Hope all is well with you and yours. on white wires in circuits, >>> > In 3 ph. circuits you can get killed breaking into a neutral that's >>> > common to other circuits. One example, working on 277 lighting, you >>> > throw the breaker or light switch on the one circuit you're working so >>> > the hot isn't hot anymore. It's standard practice for 3 ph. lighting >>> > ckts to share a neutral. The white wire in your ckt is wire nutted in >>> > the j-box up in the ceiling to the common neutrals. Those neutrals are >>> > hot to ground when their respective ckts are hot and they're carrying >>> > current. >>> > >>> > Just thought it was worth mentioning on this list that there's no hard >>> > fast rule that all white wires are dead. It depends on the ckt. >>> > >>> > Best, >>> > Greg Egan >>> > Remote Power Inc. >>> > >>> > >>> > Message: 11 >>> > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500 >>> > From: James Jarvis<j...@aprsworld.com> >>> > To: RE-wrenches<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >>> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker >>> > Message-ID: >>> > <CAFWEuYVMACXebixHtyRVYQ5Xnmaur=ugtv6etu5tnepm00n...@mail.gmail.com> >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> > >>> > Hello Wrenches, >>> > >>> > I have an off-grid install where I was recently red-tagged by the state >>> > inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum inverters, some Magnum >>> > charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller. It is permitted >>> > under NEC 2017. >>> > >>> > One of the inspectors issues was that my DC- conductors to the array / >>> > rapid shut down box are black color. He wants them to be white because he >>> > says they are solidly grounded. I reason that they are only solidly >>> > grounded when they are solidly grounded. As soon as the ground fault >>> > protection breaker opens, they are floating at array voltage. I think it >>> > is >>> > misleading and unsafe to have a white conductor that can have hundreds of >>> > volts of potential on it when a breaker trips. >>> > >>> > I haven't dug into the code yet. I'm just working on the logic that one of >>> > my mentors put into me which is white wires better not have voltage >>> > potential on them. "That's the sort of sh*t that kills electricians" is >>> > what he repeatedly said ... and it's stuck with me. >>> > >>> > Thoughts? I'm backed into the corner with the state, so I will be changing >>> > them to white even if it is unsafe ... unless I have some code backing. >>> > >>> > <rant>Changing the wires to white will get interesting up on the roof. I >>> > wonder if they want me to cut off the black MC on the modules and replace >>> > them with white? This is mostly just an exercise in the State of Minnesota >>> > only wanting to know about and allow micro inverters. They brought in a >>> > state inspector from three hours away who kept repeating that he was a >>> > "highly qualified individual", but was unable to identify or recognize a >>> > charge controller. He kept referring to the charge controllers as >>> > inverters.</rant off> >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > >>> > -James Jarvis >>> > APRS World, LLC >>> > +1-507-454-2727 >>> > http://www.aprsworld.com/ >>> > -------------- next part -------------- >>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> > URL:<http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20200612/5cd338c8/attachment-0001.html> >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List-Archive: >>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org >
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