Hi Bryan and Jason - Thanks for the info on the module warranty lead and connector issue. I was still under the impression that cutting module leads *could* lead to voiding the manufacturer's warranty so we've avoided it.
All that said, we haven't bumped into a clear cut case (at least for a long time) where a manufacturer-supplied connector was clearly faulty. I can't speak to other's experiences and certainly don't know what's up with Tesla's situation. Jason's comments about using proper techniques and tools to field assemble connectors are solid. It seems like a total slam dunk to make connectors up, but the bottom line is that installers can make mistakes (sometimes incomprehensible) when assembling connectors. These poorly assembled connectors can connect just well enough to run the system and test out okay, but then arc intermittently until complete connection failure occurs. I've seen this occur with arc fault detection enabled in the inverter which makes me question how effective arc fault detection really is. We work hard to keep training and QC up to assure that our connectors are made up properly. We're using way fewer MC4 connectors these days because we've primarily switched to AC modules for our residential installations. For commercial installations, we do a refresher training prior to starting the rooftop wiring. August Luminalt On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 7:26 AM Jason Fisher (STC) <stc.ja...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi August and all, > > In addition to modules with UL6703 mating connectors, UL1703 has always > allowed modules to be listed with only leads (no connectors attached), or > with no leads at all (old school J-box). Originally leads with connectors > were added to modules in the field, connected to J-boxes with bolted > terminals. Factory installed leads and connectors were added by module > manufacturers for convenience, not because of any Code or UL requirement. > There is no defensible reason for a module manufacturer to void their > warranty if a connector is cut off and replaced by an appropriate connector > or splice. The word appropriate is key here since there are some modules > that use proprietary connectors and even cables (ie Ac modules). > > This issue is particularly important for any connector that has any > damage. How could a module manufacturer suggest that a qualified person not > be allowed to replace a damaged part like this? Would they replace the > entire module for you? Assuming not, would they say the module should be > tossed just because of this? There is no logic in the belief that replacing > a connector should violate any warranty or listing, provided the person > performing the work is qualified and they are using appropriate (typ. > listed) parts. In fact I believe this should be part of a module’s normal > maintenance procedures that should be documented in the module’s manual. If > it was, that would remove any concerns over impacting the UL listing. > Without this procedure being documented in the module manual, you need to > get approval from the manufacturer, which some have provided in my > experience. I believe if more folks kept asking this would become easier. > > All that said please buy good quality connectors and train your people to > install them correctly, with the right (and calibrated) tools. You need > good quality controls when making any electrical connection but our mating > (“plug and play”) PV connectors are particularly important since they > operate under such demanding conditions of duty cycle and environmental > conditions. Also never mix manufacturers or types unless this combination > is called out in the NRTL listing (“intermatability”). > > Cheers, > > Jason Fisher > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> on behalf > of Bryan Norkunas <br...@pv-cables.com> > *Sent:* Monday, September 9, 2019 11:46 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch > > > August, > > > > We have had numerous customers successfully reach out and been given > revised warranties from module manufactures, when connectors which were on > the module leads could not be procured. > > > > Cheers, > > > > *Bryan Norkunas* > > br...@pv-cables.com > > > > [image: Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140] > > *PV-Cables Inc.* > > 1155 Redway Drive > > PO Box 2562 > > Redway, CA 95560 > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > > > [image: Description: Description: cid:image002.jpg@01CD22E8.974B6470] Please > print only if necessary. > > > > NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the > intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged > information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is > prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the > sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original > message. > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *August Goers > *Sent:* Monday, September 09, 2019 6:34 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch > > > > Jason - I'm curious about your statement on cutting off module connectors. > Can you elaborate? > > > > Best, > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 7:52 AM Jason Fisher (STC) <stc.ja...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > Kent, I don’t see an answer to Brian’s question about the LG module’s > original connector configuration. We’re these modules actually factory > shipped with one H4 and one MC4 connector on different polarities? That > would be bizarre. > > > > Otherwise to back up Brian’s point about Intermatability, this is a UL > 6703 term that was added in NEC2020 to specifically address this question, > how can installers have confidence when they are asked to connect two > different manufacturer’s mating connectors. Bottom line is don’t connect > “mismatched” connectors, ever. Only connect different manufacturers, and/or > different models of mating connectors if at least one of the companies > produces proof of evaluation of that combination by an NRTL. Warning that > this is rare at this point (those wouldn’t therefore be “mismatched”). > > > > This is a very important issue so my advice to Wrenches is to keep firm > and don’t budge on this one. > > > > Also curious if you all still think you can’t cut off module connectors? > We need to correct that if so. > > > > Jason Fisher > ------------------------------ > > *From:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> on behalf > of Jerry Shafer <jerrysgarag...@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Thursday, September 5, 2019 11:25 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch > > > > Brian > > Missing the point, yes they are compatible but as we have seen in the real > world there are issues. This can give module and micro inverter > manufacturers an out regarding failures and responsibility > > Jerry > > > > On Thu, Sep 5, 2019, 1:41 AM Brian Mehalic <br...@solarenergy.org> wrote: > > I don’t think “some white paper” is sufficient based on Code requirements, > UL standards (6703), and verified field failures. Also see 2020 NEC® > 690.33(C) - now requiring intermatability. > > Brian > > > On Sep 4, 2019, at 2:06 PM, Jerry Shafer <jerrysgarag...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Wrenches > > Per some white papers connectors are interchangeable, this being said l > have had arc issues as a result. FYI there are knock-offs out there to. > > Jerry > > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:42 PM Brian Mehalic <br...@solarenergy.org> wrote: > > Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead > and a negative factory MC4 lead? > > > > I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched. > > > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > > (520) 204-6639 > > > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > > > SEI Professional Services > > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg <k...@coveoregon.com> wrote: > > I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to > zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed > in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this. > Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure > enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter. > Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module. In making > the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this > system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm > convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem. > Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors? > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > >
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