The PSX-240 (independent unit in enclosure) has active cooling, so it has a higher capacity and therefore the 25A breaker. The X-240 (bare xformer) should have a 20A. The good news is, in OutBack Stacking the xformer is balancing the phases, which since there are inverters on both phases means that it typically is only processing 1-2kW or so, usually much less.
Phil On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Allan Sindelar <al...@sindelarsolar.com> wrote: > Kevin and Matt, > Good advice from Matt. Just one detail: On the Outback PSX-240 (the > independent unit with enclosure) the output breakers are 25A, not 20A. I > suspect that the 2P > breaker for the X-240 would be the same. As the unit often operates at > close to its capacity, this could make a difference. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > al...@sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > On 3/17/2015 2:56 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > > Thanks, Matt for the details here. > > I will be heading out to the site in the next little while and will report > back what was found. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org > <re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>]*On Behalf Of *Matt James > *Sent:* March 17, 2015 12:22 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping > > Kevin, > > > > Not sure what happened on the dropped communication, but I had responded > to you last week with some possible answers and things to check. I think I > made the mistake of replying directly to your email address and not sending > to the entire Re-Wrenches forum, sorry for that as I know this is > information that could be helpful to others as well. > > > > In any case, Tump is right -- on an existing system where everything has > been working fine for some time but now isn’t, the key is to isolate, > isolate, isolate. Turn off all AC input, output and transformer breakers, > then wake up each inverter by increasing the Power Save Level Master Adjust > one step at a time. Confirm proper AC voltage line to neutral at the > inverter’s AC output terminals – all breakers are still open. > > > > Close the breaker to the X240 balancing transformer, then close the AC > output breakers of one inverter at a time, starting with the Master. > Confirm that all inverters are on and have proper voltage and phasing by > verifying proper AC voltage line to neutral, line to line as measured at > the AC output terminals and to the output bus bars – all inverters should > show 120 L-N, and any inverters programmed as L1 Slaves should show 0v L-L > to the Master and 240v L-L to L2 Slaves. L2 slaves > > > > This establishes a baseline to ensure that all the power electronics, > magnetics, wiring and programming are working properly. > > > > Next, start the generator and close all the input breakers. Measure AC > voltage at the inverter’s input terminals, confirm that each is seeing the > proper voltage and phasing. Verify that the inverters sync to and connect > to the generator, and begin to charge. Measure the AC current on both > phases of the generator, and verify that they are balanced. > > > > Some potential issues are: > > 1. Bad X240 breaker. Take a spare, 20A 2 pole DIN. > > 2. Transformer insulation damaged, typically by overheating. > Rather unlikely, but possible. > > 3. Failed or mis-wired or mis-programmed inverter, likely on L2. > Due to the distance to the site, consider taking a replacement board set > with you. Alternately, the system can operate on both legs with the other > inverters, even if it’s an uneven number, through OutBack Stacking until > you can schedule another trip. > > 4. Heavily imbalanced load or generator. > > > > If the charging currents on the generator are imbalanced, one possible > solution is to disconnect the neutral from the generator at the power > system end. This presents a pure 240v load to the genset, which will force > the currents to be balanced on both phases. > > > > Feel free to contact me directly if you have any problems or questions. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Matt James > > Applications Engineering Manager > > OutBack Power Technologies Inc. > > Direct: (360) 618-4364 > > Cell: (360) 618-2869 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org > <re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of *Kevin Pegg > *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2015 10:51 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping > > > > Thanks for everyone's advise on this one. I've done as much as I can > working with the caretaker remotely and will need to attend myself with > some test gear to fully diagnose. This site is remote (10h of driving then > 1h boat ride). I generally make a point of avoiding Outback product so feel > much better informed to diagnose when onsite - later in the week. Thanks. > > > > Curious what is going on with Outback's tech support. I waited on hold for > a bit on Wednesday, then left a message for callback and am still waiting > for that callback 3 business days later. > > > > My client is most upset that Outback can't even bother to return a tech > call. His instructions to me are if we find multiple failed components in > the system and not simple fixes to remove the gear and replace with > "anything as long as it's not Outback". > > > > Will advise the list what was discovered once onsite. > > > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org > <re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>]*On Behalf Of *frenergy > *Sent:* March 16, 2015 6:38 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping > > Kevin, > > > > Not to add any confusion but I recently had to re-program the > slave in a 2 VFX with Xfrmr system as it was doing the same thing...the 2 > pole xfrmr breaker was tripping when a moderate load was on. Granted this > was not happening during charging though. I think I changed the slave from > OB slave L1 to OB slave L2 and all was good. It doesn't seem likely the > programming in your case would have been messed with having been working > well for years prior. Curious to hear though of a solution eventually. > > > > Bill > > > > Feather River Solar Electric > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Tump <t...@swnl.net> > > *To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> > > *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2015 5:39 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping > > > > Have you turned the breaker on the t240 to the off position? One does NOT > have to have that operational for the system to operate correctly.The old > t240 has about the same parasitic draw as an inverter. Isolate, Isolate, > Isolate. If the system functions correctly w/ the t240 off and the stacking > is correct on this q stack disconnect it(the t240). Otherwise I would > remove the inverter com cables and only connect 1 pair of inverters at a > time, reset the mate with the correct com cables connected to P1& P2. > Sometimes something so simple as disconnecting & reconnection the mate can > have quite a benefit. Again I would, if you are really stuck on having the > t240 operational, then try it with each inverter as a single unit then try > the second set of inverters. Disconnect the #s1&2 inverters and do the > same; connect #s 3&4 P1 & P2, to see exactly which component may be your > problem. > > You are more then happy to contact me off list if you choose. contact info > below. Tump > > On Mar 15, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > > > Wrenches > OK if the X240 blows the fuse which is on the output of the inverter while > the inverter is charging, excessive current must be passing through from > one inverter and back to the output of another inverter ( a form of AC > coupling gone bad). The time delay fits as the inverter ramps up, I would > look at the contactors in each slave as one may be hanging or ther may be a > bad board, easy way to test is to isolate each inverter and with a amp > meter connected at the X240 see if current goes away in the X240 as it > should not be doing much with light loads on the "House" side of the > inverters. The X240 is 25 amps while the inverters are 50 amps. Sounds like > a interesting one to diagnose. > > Jerry > > > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Chris Worcester < > ch...@solarwindworks.com> wrote: > > Hi Kevin, > > I have seen the X240's trip off like this when theyare over loaded. When > this was happening to us the slave inverters had blown AC boards and some > times Control and FET boards too. We had a hard time diagnosing this as > their green lights were on. Using a clamp on amp meter on each > inverter's AC IN conductor while charging with the gen set allowed us to > compare their charging currents to each other. Typically the ones with > blown AC boards output would be close to zero amps. So the X240's were > doing double duty and they will smoke too if the inverters aren't delta > with. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > Chris Worcester > > 530-448-9692 > > Sent from my Galaxy S®III > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: Kevin Pegg > > Date:03/11/2015 1:19 PM (GMT-08:00) > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > Customer in remote location has a strange situation come up on an existing > system installed (by others) 6 or so years go. Quad stack VFX3648. > > Last night gen start was triggered by low voltage - a normal system > operation. > > Approx 1h into charge, they lost 1/2 the circuits in house - L2 > de-energized. Caretaker went to check power system and noticed the X240 > breakers tripped. Tried to reset but it tripped out right away. So he left > it as is and called me in the morning. > > Here's what I've been able to determine today: > > - The x240 is installed to bridge L1 & L2 on the load side. > - with master inverter on, 3 slaves off, both L1 and L2 energized so > suggests x240 is working. > - within 10 seconds of generator on and charging, x240 breaker trips (and > makes L2 go dark). > - loads are minor, ~1,000 w of misc lights and such, isn't all loaded up > on one leg. > > Appreciate any thoughts to remedy. I'm not as familiar with this config as > others. > > Kevin Pegg > EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. > 37471 Hwy 16 E > Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 > 250-846-9888 > Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca <http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca/> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > *t...@swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > > Solarwinds Northernlights > > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401 > <610-517-8401> * > > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & > settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >
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