Nathan, 690.12 only applies to "PV system circuits installed on or in buildings" so that might be your answer. You'd only be affected by 690.12 if you're running to an interior inverter. So- your strategy of exterior conduit to wall-mounted inverters on the exterior of a building won't be subjected to the 690.12 requirement.

On 2014/4/15, 11:09, Nathan Charles wrote:
Hi All,

I have a follow up to this discussion. What's the proper way to think through this regarding ground mounts? It seems to me that if the goal is to protect firefighters then running a conduit underground and coming up to outdoor wall mounted inverters is keeping in the spirit of things, but I'm not sure if the language of 690.12 supports this. Am I mistaken? Do you have any best practice advice for this scenario?

Best regards,
-N


On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 12:36 PM, Drake <drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org <mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>> wrote:


    Bill,

    It is good to see that energized conductors are going to be
    disconnected near the arrays. I've been an advocate of
    disconnecting these conductors by ground fault sensing equipment
    since ground fault detection was first implemented in the code. If
    contactors are to be installed on roofs, it likely won't be long
    before both ground faults and arc faults are automatically cleared.

    When the requirement for AC arc fault branch circuit protection
    was first put in the NEC, it was postdated to allow time for the
    electrical industry to adapt. This new remote disconnecting
    requirement does not provide any lead time.

    As the 2014 NEC is adopted in various jurisdictions, inspectors
    may feel that it is necessary to disallow systems without the
    newly required disconnect feature. This may result in serious
    problems for solar companies and customers, as well as manufacturers.

    The protection of firefighters is essential. The implementation of
    renewables is essential also. Insurance claims for weather
    related, global warming-triggered climatic disasters are rising
    exponentially. Extreme weather related events result in major loss
    of life and billions of dollars in property damage. Atmospheric
    CO2 levels continue to climb from the burning of fossil fuels.
    This is a crisis of global proportions.

    My request for code writers is to please take into account the
    effect that inserting new rules into the NEC may have on the
    stability of renewable energy, and implement new requirements in a
    way that will allow for a smooth interface.

    Thank you,

    Drake

    Drake Chamberlin
    /Athens Electric LLC
    OH License 44810
    CO License 3773
    NABCEP Certified Solar PV
    740-448-7328 <tel:740-448-7328>
    /http://athens-electric.com/


    At 12:45 PM 1/16/2014, you wrote:
    Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
    boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0F94_01CF129F.BCC65BD0"
    Content-Language: en-us


    Jeffrey,

    Sounds like you need to get involved in the code making process
    since you have so many good ideas on how to improve the language.
    I like confrontational discussions as long as they lead to a
    better understanding and constructive outcomes.

    About 30 people worked on this language, so it is definitely not
    perfect. However, I don't think it is quite as bad as you make it
    out to be. I wanted to jump in since some of your conclusions
    were not correct.

    This is a circuit requirement, not a disconnecting means
    requirement, since it has to do with shock hazard of PV circuits
    in and around a building. This is for firefighter safety. 30V is
    the international standard for touch safe in a wet location.
    240VA is to set a limit on the available power on a circuit.
    Contactor combiners, which would be part of a compliant solution,
    have 24V control circuits. The other reasoning for 240VA is that
    internally, 72-Cell PV modules can be divided into segments of
    this power level for the foreseeable future (more on that another
    day).

    If the conductors stay outside, you have 10' from the array to
    place your shutdown device. On large central systems, this would
    likely be a contactor combiner­most manufacturers sell these. If
    the conductors are going immediately into the building, as with
    residential and integrated systems, a shutdown device would have
    to be within 5' of entering the building. If goes outside for a
    while, then inside the building, the total length could be no
    more than 10' and no more than 5' inside the building­this is not
    additive. Remember, all this is for firefighter safety.

    As Brian Mehalic and others have pointed out, the language does
    not specify where the shutdown initiating device is to be
    located. The lack of detail is more for flexibility than it is to
    give an AHJ license to make an installer do anything they want.

    With grid-tie only systems (no battery backup), it would be most
    convenient and cost effective to have a system that initiates the
    shutdown on loss of utility. In this way, a firefighter can do
    what they normally do, shut down utility power to the building,
    and the rapid shutdown would automatically initiate. This does
    not necessitate an additional disconnecting means for a load-side
    PV connection. The main breaker could be the initiating device.
    For a supply-side connection, the NEC already requires that the
    PV disconnect switch be located adjacent to the service
    disconnecting means (article 230).

    The biggest issue with string inverters (central inverters) is
    that there is a need to shutdown the capacitor input side of the
    inverter since that stays energized for 5 minutes or more. The 10
    seconds was to provide a means to rapidly discharge the
    capacitors rather than requiring a relay or tripping device.
    Doing something other than a relay will require a test laboratory
    to evaluate the function­guess what?­we don't have a standard yet
    to evaluate those products. Sounds like you might want to work on
    that committee.

    It is more complicated for battery backup systems. Midnite
    Solar's birdhouse products are the best I have seen so far to
    address this concern. Since dc and ac circuits are not
    differentiated, battery backup systems need to have a shutdown
    process that works independently of a utility outage for obvious
    reasons, and it must shutdown both the dc circuits and the backup
    ac circuits. A separate switch, like the birdhouse, would be
    necessary that only controls these functions in an emergency
    situation.

    Is the language not detailed­possibly. This was done to provide
    flexibility rather than create problems. Fire departments have
    been requiring rooftop disconnects for years in California. These
    disconnects are nearly worthless from a shock prevention point of
    view since capacitors in the inverter stay charged or there are
    multiple disconnecting means feeding each other. We have been
    trying to hold the fire community off of rooftop disconnect
    requirements so we could work on a solution that actually does
    what they want it to do. There is a long discussion on this in
    the appendix of my "Understanding the CalFire Guidelines"
    document on the SolarABCs website.

    The 2014 NEC language was a compromise worked out with the solar
    industry (yes string inverter companies as well) in response to
    the first version of the proposal which was to require
    module-level shutdown. This is not module-level shutdown, it is
    PV output circuit shutdown (combiner box shutdown is another way
    to look at it). However, the 2017 NEC cycle is this year and
    there was a lot of talk about requiring module-level shutdown
    this time around.

    I hope this helps. I will be writing articles for IAEI journal
    and other periodicals on this subject since it was a very
    far-reaching and potentially confusing new requirement in the
    NEC. Thanks for your interest and let's keep the constructive
    dialogue going on the subject. It is time to get involved in the
    NEC update process again.

    Bill Brooks.

    *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
    <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>
    [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
    <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of
    *Jeffrey Quackenbush
    *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2014 1:09 AM
    *To:* RE-wrenches
    *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2014 690.12 Rapid Shutdown

    Wrenches,

    There is no guidance in the Code text for where the shutdown
    should take place. (1) says: "Requirements for controlled
    conductors shall apply only to PV system conductors of more than
    1.5m (5') in length inside a building, or more than 3m (10') from
    a PV array."


    So, the provisions /apply if/ the circuit 10' from the array and
    5' inside a building, but no mention is made of where the
    shutdown actually needs take place in the circuit. In the video
    Bill Brooks suggests that the shutdown mechanism should also be
    placed within this 10'/5' boundary but that is just an inference
    -- nowhere in the text is this actually specified. If that was
    the intent of the Code committee, then they've done a poor job
    actually expressing it in English.

    I'm concerned that some AHJs will interpret this to exclude all
    central inverter systems (without the addition of cost-inducing
    secondary DC-DC converters like Tigo) because the combiner or
    junction box can be many feet from the actual beginning of a home
    run under the array. Alternately, permissive AHJs could allow
    this function to be fulfilled anywhere, meaning that the
    implementation won't meet the intent of the writers.

    I'm also concerned, as Isaac mentioned, that there are no
    requirements for how the shutdown be initiated, or that it
    contains of the accessibility and grouping requirements that are
    always included for disconnects. I really think this should be
    treated and categorized as a disconnect requirement, not a
    circuit requirement, because that is the ultimate function that's
    intended.

    I'm surprised none of the inverter manufacturers have chosen to
    comment here, as this could dramatically impact the sales of
    central inverters.

    Jeffrey Quackenbush



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--
Nathan Charles
Engineer
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #042013-20
Paradise Energy Solutions
(717) 283-2021 direct


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