What if you filled the top tank and over flowed to the lower tank and did your shut off there? Or parallel the fill call with a normally closed solenoid to stop fill on whichever tank. I have done this several times with not a problem.
Just like having the inverter start the generator and also having a pressure switch and a spring wound timer start the gen. too. If this is out of whack , Pleas Ignore I did not read the earlier threads. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc www.solarwork.com E - d...@solarwork.com V - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 I'd put my money on solar energy I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and coal run out before we tackle that. Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March 1931 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 12:34 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Design help for solar water pumping application I agree with Brian and Mark on most of their comments, but heres a bit more: Mark is right, theres no way to separately control filling two tanks at different levels. I didnt read that section very carefully. Brians float valve approach and sequential filling is about the only approach. But given that a float valve failure could be catastrophic (5,000 gallons flowing back down) you might want to add a check valve on the line to the higher tank, if the line from the well to the two tanks is shared. Remember, too, that the total dynamic head is measured from the water level in the well, not the pump level. That means your tdh on the far well is something less than 220, or about 97 psi (plus friction head). Assuming you dont have 3,000 feet of signal cable in the ground, the P2Flow approach would likely work well. Their 0-100psi transducer has a resolution of 0.1 psi. Make sure to add a check valve where the line leaves the well, so as to be unaffected by fluctuations of the water level in the well, and put the pressure-sensing transducer after the check valve, so that it only measures head determined by the tank level. Were working with a similar application here in New Mexico, so Im learning this too. One respectful disagreement with Mark: The 3SQF-3 Grundfos is officially rated to 656. I hear it will do well more than that, but no direct experience. I would not recommend the Lorentz after multiple failures back when Dankoff (now Conergy) was the sole North American distributor. (We are in Santa Fe so do will call pickups for most orders. Dont ask me to describe seeing pallets of junk Lorentz pumps outside their warehouse, waiting to head to the recycler.) Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com _____ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Brian Teitelbaum Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 2:18 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Design help for solar water pumping application Hi Lee, I dont know how the two tanks are laid out physically, but if they happen to be installed in a way that you could run one pipeline up to the tank at 200 and go from there to the other tank, you might try using a float valve in the lower tank and a float switch in the upper tank. The lower tanks inlet would just be teed off of the pipeline going to the upper tank. The lower tank will fill first, being the path of least resistance. When it is full, the float valve closes sending water through the pipeline to the upper tank. When the upper tank is full, the float switch would turn the pump off. The distance to the float switch in the upper tank is a bit far, but you should be OK if you use a larger gauge wire than usual. I think that 18 gauge would be fine, but 16 gauge would be better. If it is line-of-site, you might look into doing a wireless control , but that would mean that you need a small PV module and a battery up there. Go with the 1 ½ pipe Not to contradict Mark (Ok I guess that I am!) The Grundfos model 3 SQF-3 will do 600 As to Allens comment about array size, he is correct about the pump drawing a max of 900W. However, if you only put a 900W array on the pump, it will only pump at max volume at mid-day. If you put a larger array on the pump, the array will produce 900W in less light (morning and afternoon) and produce a lot more gallons per day (GPD). The GPM figure of a solar pump is really only relevant for making sure that you dont over pump a low yielding well. Its really GPD that counts. That 1.36kW array might produce 900W at 9AM and 3PM, giving you a solid six hours of max output pumping. No problem over sizing the array the pump will only draw what it needs. If you have really good exposure to the sky, you can use a tracker to increase GPD instead of over sizing the PV. According to my info, with 250 of head (220 plus pipe friction loss) you can get about 2000 GPD (summer) with the Grundfos model 6 SQF-2 and about 700W of PV in a fixed array, with a peak flow of 4.5 GPM. Adding more PV will give you more GPD. With the model 11 SQF-2, you can get up to about 4300 GPD with a 1750W array at that head. If you needed even more water volume, and the well produced it, you could even put two pumps in the well (with separate arrays). I had one dealer who managed to put two Grundfos pumps down a 5 casing! He said that it all went easy .but I dont believe him. He did have a curious issue though. He said that if he turned one pump off with its CU200, both pumps would shut down, even though the other pump was not connected to that CU200. He couldnt just run one pump. I never did talk to Grundfos about that. Cheers! Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Dickson Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:40 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Design help for solar water pumping application Hey Lee, Allan is right in that the WINcaps software is a lifesaver and FREE! Not to contradict Allan, but I do not see a feasible way of using two float switches in separate tanks with only one pump controller. Also, the 3000 distance is a little farthey usually recommend a max distance of 1600 for the float switches. Lastly, if you are ever worried about the head, the Lorentz pumps can pump up to 760 --more than double the recommended for Grundfos. I highly recommend Genpro Energy Solutions as a pump distributor for both of those brands. They always answer the phone, are personable and return emails (hint, hint Conergy)! Best, Mark Dickson Oasis Montana Inc. <http://www.oasismontana.com/> www.oasismontana.com www.grid-tie.com <http://www.grid-tie.com/> <http://www.pvsolarpumps.com/> www.PVsolarpumps.com _____ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 2:28 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Design help for solar water pumping application Lee, You can get Grundfos WINCaps software from your RE or pump supplier; some will run the sizing for you (Jeremy at Conergy does for us). I didnt check your head and flow, but I would expect thats about your only good pump choice at that head. Add a tracker if you need greater summer output; dont attempt batteries as a solution. If usage occasionally exceeds output, add an IO101 control and allow the pump to run off any AC source at night. A tiny 1,200W inverter/generator will work at sea level. Use a CU200 controller to allow a float or level detector switch to turn off the pump when tanks are full. Mercury-based float switches last longer in signal circuits that carry no current. If you cant use a float switch because the lines are already buried, look into www.P2Flow.com <http://www.p2flow.com/> for pressure transducer-based control. Read the website info, then call Britt there with your specific application. That array sounds oversized, as the pump draws a maximum of 900 watts. Hope this helps. Allan Sindelar <mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com> al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 <http://www.positiveenergysolar.com> www.positiveenergysolar.com _____ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lee Bristol Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 1:26 PM To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Design help for solar water pumping application Solar Water Pumping Wrenches, We normally don't do solar water pumping but a friend asked for some help designing his system. He has one well and two 5,000 gallon reservoirs to fill up. The average usage is expected to be about 2,000 gallons per day but may be higher in the summer. The tanks will have level detector switches to sense when the tank is full. The site is near Leesburg, VA. The problem is to design a control system to turn on the pump when one or both of the tanks needs water and to shut it off when both are full. The closest tank has a head requirement of 200 feet (pump to tank) and is 300 feet from the well head. The second tank head requirement is 220 feet and it is 3,000 feet from the well. The pipes are expected to be 1.25 or 1.5 inch. A Grundfos SQFlex 6 SQF-2 pump with 1.36 KW solar was recommended, 360 foot head, 360 gph. I think that this would provide the lift but not the quantity. Hmmmm, what valves and controls would you all suggest? Thanks! Lee
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