Hey, I could give a shit whether you or anyone else wears a helmet. It seems that you are missing the theme of the video. Maybe you should watch it again.
On Mar 16, 7:43 pm, Greg Doggett <gndogg...@gmail.com> wrote: > Re; Grant refers to this helmet guy for some reason > > If YOU feel YOU need to wear a helmet...do so. > If YOU feel YOU don't.....then don't. > Then just shut up and ride. > > On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 6:55 PM, > <rbw-owners-bunch+nore...@googlegroups.com>wrote: > > > Today's Topic Summary > > > Group:http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch/topics > > > - Grant refers to this helmet guy for some > > reason<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_group_thread_0>[19 Updates] > > - Helmet use and how dangerous are bikes versus > > cars<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_group_thread_1>[2 Updates] > > - Today's brevet. <#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_group_thread_2> [1 Update] > > - Econo-super-gloves <#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_group_thread_3> [2 Updates] > > - Tire size question... don't know where else to ask > > it.<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_group_thread_4>[1 Update] > > > Topic: Grant refers to this helmet guy for some > > reason<http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch/t/2cbb5f87ceee90f9> > > > MontclairBobbyB <montclairbob...@gmail.com> Mar 16 02:07PM -0400 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > Patrick; > > > I'm sure I've already told you this, but I'll be first in line at your > > book > > signing... you are indeed fun to read. (In fact if you have a reason to > > travel East, you should consider joining us for Riv Rally East May > > 6-8... > > With Robert Zeidler, Steve Palincsar and Kelly Sleeper (among > > others) planning to attend, I expect the dialogue (in addition to the > > scenery) to be rather colorful... > > > Peace, > > BB > > > -- > > "LIFE... is better, when you ride bikes"... > > > Bob Birmingham > > Cell: (908) 303-6887 > > > Kelly Sleeper <tkslee...@gmail.com> Mar 16 01:26PM -0500 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > Bad enough I have to tape the keyboard now I'll have to tape my mouth > > to stay out of trouble. > > > Helmets are safer than no helmet. Fact > > Hell a piece of leather is safer than nothing. > > > Just for me the risk is so low that I choose to not wear one at times. > > > I only wear seat belts because of the damn buzzer not the law or safety > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > Montclair BobbyB <montclairbob...@gmail.com> Mar 16 11:35AM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > Kelly: > > > I hope you understand my definition of "colorful" in this context to > > mean "exceptional"... Looking forward to not only a few days of great > > riding (at Riv Rally East), but having a great meeting of the > > minds... > > > (A bigger question, perhaps... Will you bring your Hilsen or your > > Bomba?) > > > Peace, > > BB > > > PATRICK MOORE <bertin...@gmail.com> Mar 16 12:52PM -0600 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > Shucks, 'twas nuthin, really. > > > More eloquent by far than I, BSNYC indulges in some amusing punditry > > and > > soul moving commentary on recent "bicycle safety rules" here: > > http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/ > > > On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 12:07 PM, MontclairBobbyB < > > montclairbob...@gmail.com > > > -- > > Patrick Moore > > Albuquerque, NM > > For professional resumes, contact > > Patrick Moore, ACRW at patrickmo...@resumespecialties.com > > > SISDDWG <dgen...@gmail.com> Mar 16 12:01PM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > The helmet issue is like the God issue in that you can't convince a > > believer of anything. They have a deep seated need to believe or > > abandon head protection. > > > NickBull <nick.bike.b...@gmail.com> Mar 16 12:12PM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > I thought Steve Palincsar's post was the most interesting in this > > thread. > > > I've been driving for 46 years and cycling for 56. In that time, I > > have never been involved in a car crash that involved any bodily > > injury whatsoever. Knock on wood. But I have been involved in quite > > a few bicycle crashes, most just my own mistakes, and most causing > > injuries that may have been painful but were minor enough that I was > > riding again a few days later. The only serious crash (involving > > broken bones) was because of another cyclist's reckless riding. I > > have never been involved in a crash with a car. Again, knock on wood. > > > The point is just that in my personal "statistical" experience from a > > lifetime of both cycling and driving, cycling is more likely to cause > > minor to moderate injuries. The same seems to be true of Steve. I > > wonder if it is true of others? > > > Along the same lines. Consider only people who you know > > "personally". By that, I mean people who you've met in person, shaken > > their hand or given them a hug, or at least said howdy-do, and that > > you would recognize if you bumped into them in the grocery store. Not > > people who you've just emailed back and forth with or heard about them > > on the internet. > > > Among people who I know personally, I can think of none in my lifetime > > who have been killed or have been seriously (and permanently) injured > > in a car accident. I know of one person killed in a plane crash--a > > high school classmate. I don't know anyone who has been killed or > > seriously and permanently injured either as a pedestrian or hiking/ > > backpacking. And among people who I know personally, I know of one > > person killed in a bike crash, and two people who have serious and > > permanent disabilities from bike crashes. > > > Again, that means that in my personal "statistical" experience from a > > lifetime of knowing people who cycle and drive and walk and fly places > > in planes, cycling has resulted in the greatest number of deaths and > > serious injuries. And I do not think that that is just selectivity > > bias from having lots of cyclist friends. All but two of those > > cyclist friends are also drivers, walkers, and flyers. And I have > > many, many non-cyclist friends. So it seems like I should be hearing > > about driving/walking/flying injuries among my non-cylist friends. > > > I still cycle about 10,000 miles a year, half in randonneuring and > > half in daily commuting, In the last six years, I've taken the metro > > only about fifteen times (the snow was three feet deep last winter), > > and the rest of the time have ridden my bike to work, regardless of > > weather. So I'm a committed "lifestyle" bicyclist. I've been wearing > > a helmet since I crashed in the rain on my way to work in 1975 and hit > > my head (downhill left turn at a traffic light where I was trying to > > make the green--got a flat just as I started the turn and slid on my > > side across four lanes of road). I rode to a bike store and asked if > > they had helmets, and as it turns out, Bell had just introduced a bike > > helmet. > > > Nick > > > Anne Paulson <anne.paul...@gmail.com> Mar 16 01:25PM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > If your argument works equally well if we substitute "being a > > pedestrian" or "taking a shower" for "cycling," then you might want to > > reconsider your logic. > > > -- > > -- Anne Paulson > > > My hovercraft is full of eels > > > Philip Williamson <philip.william...@gmail.com> Mar 16 01:32PM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > > > Please don't include it. It just stirs up trouble and gets no one > > anywhere good. > > > > I could not disagree more. We need good data. Far too often the > > > discussion devolves... > > > +1 > > > It sounds like BQ means to review the existing data, and analyze it > > statistically. I'm all for that, but I'd like to see a sidebar in the > > article on "meaningful" statistics for those of us who were only good > > at the "draw pictures of the data" portion of the single simple > > college Stat class we took. > > > This discussion could be tabled until after the article is published, > > and then re-opened on the Bicycle Quarterly Readers' group (http:// > > groups.google.com/group/bqrr). > > > Philip > > > Philip Williamson > > www.biketinker.com > > > Travis <travisbreitenb...@gmail.com> Mar 16 12:55PM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > I've searched extensively as well and cannot find anything > > scientifically convincing. However, here are a couple of very simple > > questions which may be helpful: > > > 1) Do helmets reduce the extent of head or neck injuries incurred by > > impact to the head? > > 2) Does cycling increase the likelihood of impact to the head, whether > > or not a helmet is in use? > > > If you have a suspicion that the answer to each of these questions is > > "Yes," you should probably wear a helmet. > > > Travis Breitenbach > > > grant <grant...@gmail.com> Mar 16 11:54AM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > I included the link because I thought it was interesting. A stir, OK, > > but at some point it's time to move on. The arguments FOR are well- > > known. The arguments against, whether you buy them or not, get your > > brain working and help you settle the issue with yourself. It is > > unlikely that any discussion here will sway anybody. > > > Regretfully, > > > Grant "I own four helmets and wear them often but not always" Petersen > > > Travis <travisbreitenb...@gmail.com> Mar 16 02:51PM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > Ann, to indulge your semantic reply I will change #2: > > > 2) Does cycling dramatically increase your risk of suffering brain > > damage, death, or paralysis due to impact to the head versus > > showering? > > > Yes, almost definitely. > > > PATRICK MOORE <bertin...@gmail.com> Mar 16 04:01PM -0600 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > pcooley <pcoo...@cybermesa.com> Mar 16 03:02PM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > I swore to myself I wouldn't jump in on this argument, but as a fellow > > New Mexican, I thought I would jump in here with Patrick. Mark Twain > > said that there were lies, damn lies and statistics. The problem with > > this particular set of statistics is that it is only measuring one > > thing. > > > Who do I see on the roads not wearing helmets? > > > Actually, they are usually not even on the roads. They're riding on > > the sidewalk, often against traffic -- one of the leading causes of > > bicycle/automobile crashes out there. If these statistics were taken > > exclusively from, say cycling clubs, I would grant them a little more > > validity in the argument. > > > I find the entire issue around helmet use fascinating, and I am > > somewhat fascinated as well that it stirs so much anger and passion. > > I'm on the fence myself. I use my helmet if I'm going to be in heavy > > traffic or bicycling down mountains, but for much of my day to day > > riding, I don't. I'm not passionate about it either way, but I do > > think the arguments against helmet use are worth considering. > > > I've already responded off-list to Jan in support of a Bicycle > > Quarterly article. > > > Paul Cooley > > Santa Fe, NM > > > pcooley <pcoo...@cybermesa.com> Mar 16 03:06PM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > I guess it's also worth pointing out that the statistics come from the > > Bicycle Helmet Safety Institute. That's hardly an unbiased source. I > > would accept Bicycle Quarterly as being somewhat more authoritative. > > > Anne Paulson <anne.paul...@gmail.com> Mar 16 03:11PM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > > 2) Does cycling dramatically increase your risk of suffering brain > > > damage, death, or paralysis due to impact to the head versus > > > showering? > > > Here's what I want to know, and what I haven't seen compelling data > > on: Will a helmet materially change my risk of damage, death or > > paralysis while cycling? > > > Sadly, we've had some recent cyclist deaths in my area. The cyclist > > fatalities I hear about are seemingly cyclists like me, cycling on > > roads that I ride on. They were wearing helmets, like I do, and their > > helmets failed to protect them from death. > > > And then I hear about other local cyclists crashing and recovering > > from broken wrists, broken collar bones, broken legs-- these people > > seemingly didn't hit their heads at all. > > > And then, I suppose, there are cyclists who crash and hit their heads, > > but their helmets prevented or mitigated their injuries. > > > But what I want to know is, in what proportion of accidents would a > > helmet make a difference? In some accidents, helmet or no helmet the > > cyclist would die. In some accidents, helmet or no helmet, the cyclist > > wouldn't have a head injury, or wouldn't have a head injury that made > > any difference, or would have struck something with, say, their chin, > > so a helmet wouldn't have helped. In some accidents, the helmet saves > > the victim-- but how many accidents are like that? Don't say, one is > > enough-- the danger has to be significant enough so wearing a helmet > > is worth it; I don't wear a helmet when taking a shower. > > > -- > > -- Anne Paulson > > > My hovercraft is full of eels > > > William <tapebu...@gmail.com> Mar 16 03:18PM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > 1) Do helmets reduce the extent of head or neck injuries incurred by > > impact to the head? > > > YES > > > 2) Does getting off the couch dramatically increase your risk of > > suffering brain > > damage, death, or paralysis due to impact to the head versus > > staying on the couch? > > > YES > > > Therefore, either stay on the couch or wear a helmet when recklessly > > leaving the couch > > > pcooley <pcoo...@cybermesa.com> Mar 16 03:20PM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > And just one more for Jan -- how many randonneurs in the past suffered > > head injuries. I don't see many helmets in those old pictures. If > > there really is a strong correlation between bicycling and head > > injuries, then there is sure to be some discussion of it in the > > vintage literature. > > > Paul Cooley > > Santa Fe, NM > > > Montclair BobbyB <montclairbob...@gmail.com> Mar 16 03:47PM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > (Sorry I'm getting sucked into furterh debate, but... ) honestly I > > don't believe there's a legitimate argument for or against, regardless > > of statistics. This comes down to a person's perception and > > sensitivity to risk. Do you have tornado insurance? Flood > > insurance? These choices (and they're your choices) would likely be > > based on your perception of the risk that these events could occur, > > versus sensitivity towards protecting your assets. Same goes for > > helmets or anything that can potentially offer protection. > > > I "choose" to wear a helmet when I perceive there's a risk of harm to > > my noggin. I don't care if helmets are declared by the leading minds > > in this world as unnecessary (based on statistics)... I'd still wear > > mine when I perceive potential risk of hitting my head on a low > > branch, concrete sidewalk or curb. And this is based on the best > > evidence I have; past experience; actually hitting my head or having > > close calls. > > > Conversely, even if wearing helmets were regarded as the most > > practical thing a cyclist can possibly do (by the so-called leading > > minds, based on statistics), unless required by law I would still > > cherish (and exercise) my right to ride without a helmet when I > > perceive the risk to be low (and therefore I'd also willingly accept > > the consequences of hitting my head). That's MY choice. > > > Bottom line, I don't care what statistics show, either in favor or > > against, nor will I EVER. I will ignore them over my own gut intuition > > between when it's right to wear or not to wear a helmet. My head, my > > choice... period. And I recognize the right of every person to make > > the same choice one way or the other. > > > Peace, > > Bobby (semi-but-mostly helmeted) Birmingham > > > William <tapebu...@gmail.com> Mar 16 03:52PM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > Do I have to tell people I'm a civil libertarian if I agree > > enthusiastically with Montclair Bobby B? Is there a pin I have to > > wear? > > > On Mar 16, 3:47 pm, Montclair BobbyB <montclairbob...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > Topic: Helmet use and how dangerous are bikes versus > > cars<http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch/t/a2b417dcebf66e0a> > > > Richard Merkin <samcoal...@gmail.com> Mar 16 02:53PM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > I usually don't interject but having worked in neurosurgery for the > > last 12 years I would say wear a helmet. If you have never seen > > somebody fracture their skull then you are missing out....it only > > takes one fall. > > > William <tapebu...@gmail.com> Mar 15 02:00PM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > You could have won the cork-product-suggestion contest with a cork- > > lined, tweed covered thudgard. > > > Brilliant! > > > Topic: Today's > > brevet.<http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch/t/e85768de5d6ad890> > > > Kevin Brightbill <jaiete.ke...@gmail.com> Mar 15 08:58PM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > Mike! I don't think I met you on Saturday -- I remember seeing a > > rather beautiful A.H.H. at the start, though! I was on the white Colin > > Laing track bike... the one Birkie rider dumb enough to try it with a > > fixed gear! Hope to catch you for the Three Capes... though unless we > > get an unexpected forecast of 65 degrees and clear skies, I'll > > probably pull out my Trek 520 instead! > > > Lynne, glad to see you on here -- it was a pleasure to meet up with > > you and Susan (and my friend Nick) near the end of the ride. > > > Cheers! > > > Topic: > > Econo-super-gloves<http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch/t/7264e5692219d1e0> > > > William <tapebu...@gmail.com> Mar 16 02:04PM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > A couple months back I stopped at the cafe in the middle of a cold > > training ride. I had a conversation with an oldtimer on a custom > > Mikkelsen who was wearing blue nitrile gloves. I didn't ask him why > > he was wearing them but it got me thinking about emergency waterproof > > stuff for cool and rainy brevets. I came up with a glove system where > > I wore a pair of cheap knit gloves ($1 a pair at Joann Fabric) with > > blue nitrile gloves over them. On a 45 mile hilly ride in constant > > rain and temps in the mid 40's to low 50's, my hands were toasty warm, > > not uncomfortably so on climbs, and still warm on fast descents. I > > was very impressed. I feel like I've got a great glove alternative > > that is 100% waterproof, essentially free, essentially weightless, and > > packs to basically zero volume. These will be in my handlebar bag > > anytime I think I might see weather. A few photos: > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/sets/72157626131698281/with... > > > AmiSingh <asd...@gmail.com> Mar 16 02:33PM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > VAPOR BARRIER LAYER (VBL) in full effect! > > > A week and a half ago I performed an experiment, based on information > > on VBLs I read in Robert Wood's Pleasure Packing, recommended by GP. > > > Below is my report, as posted to Facebook. My friends made a lot of > > fun of me, but I'm okay with that :) > > > 12:19 PM: I am wearing a plastic dry cleaning bag as a tshirt today > > (rather than cotton or soft merino wool) as an experiment. It's called > > a vapor barrier layer, and increases body heat by 15-20*F. It's also > > supposed to modulate things like perspiration, temperature, etc. I > > feel weird wearing it, but really appreciate it's added warmth. Just > > thought you should know. > > > 1:38 PM: So far, it's still weird and I make a crunchy noise under my > > wool sweater. My secretary laughed at me when she saw the $1.99 on the > > plastic bag that came untucked from the back. I still appreciate the > > warmth and no sweats so far. I'm experimenting based on Robert Wood's > > Pleasure Packing. For more on VB information Google Jack Stephenson + > > VB shirt. I'll follow up with more at the end of the day. The > > overwhelming feeling is that I still feel weird. > > > 2:14 PM: Riding 15 miles to pick up my car at the repair shop. Adding > > plastic grocery bags under my wool socks. I'm nervous. Let's see how > > this goes ... > > > 4:22 PM: Conclusion : it works remarkably well. Its around 35* with > > sometimes a 20-25mph headwind. For my torso, I wore the bag, a thin > > merino wool half-sleeved polo, and a light wind-breaker with pit and > > back vents. Feet, plastic grocery bags, thin smartwool merino socks > > and a pair of light puma shoes. > > > Plenty warm, no overheating despite repeat 90% exertion uphills. For > > headwinds I felt surprisingly comfortable double-wind protection, even > > better downhills. > > > Perspiration surprisingly regulated and I'm not thirsty! > > > 5:28 PM: A surprise twist at the end. I am not sure is Facebook > > appropriate, so I won't share the details of the lake of sweat that > > poured out of the plastic shirt when I untucked it from my pants. It > > was shocking, weird, interesting and gross all at the same time. > > > I was still exceptionally warm, wore only a few layers of clothing and > > *think* I did not perspire as much as I would have normally dressed in > > multiple layers of wool, nylon and sometimes down, whn not using the > > VBL. Despite its wierdness factor, I will use the cheap and easy > > plastic shirts and booties on future adventures when the weather falls > > below 45* F. > > > Oh, you can use VBLs under your gloves too! Just slip on a > > polyurethane or plastic glove before putting on your normal mittens/ > > gloves and be amazed at the extra warmth! > > > The Riv Family should feel free to make fun of me also. BUT, I have > > the feeling that there are other quirky people here who will give this > > a try ... if you do, make sure to post your experiences! :) > > > Topic: Tire size question... don't know where else to ask > > it.<http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch/t/91ec8a34ffbb68ce> > > > Peter Pesce <petepe...@gmail.com> Mar 16 11:26AM -0700 > > ^<#12ec0e17bf1a4ad7_digest_top> > > > I would say get the bike that is easiest to travel with, regardless of > > tire > > size, as that is the reason for your purchase to begin with. > > You will then be more likely to have a bike with you, with is better > > than > > having no bike with you, regardless of tire size. > > > Just my 2mm. > > > -Pete > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > >http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 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