To the unaccounted elevation of Toyo-built versus others, they were still a mass maker, just smaller volume and able to solve the economic formula of the moment given all the variables. You can bet Grant knows about exchange rates and the implications of even an economic choice of wholesale costing if in another currency.
A mass maker is still that. Your name isn't on the bike and the uses you intend may match the marketing descriptions but you can still come up short of perfect. My Toyo-built Rambouillet has had the rear dropouts replaced (the DS one broke right across its entry into the chainstay) and the rear brake bridge rebrazed because it broke out of the seat stays. Fortunately for me the solid pool of brass was like a socket that kept the caliper the right distance from the axle, even if it did rotate a few degrees on the side where it popped when the pads grabbed the rim. RBW had MN replace the dropouts and JB resprayed the orange-sicle finish. By the time I had the stay reattached, not at a higher position since clearance was already better than the fork's, I had it done locally and did and rattle can spot repaint to cover the steel. Yes there were no Toyo Rams with windows of cream like the head tube on the seat stays, except mine. So now at the Toyo Rambouillet's twenty year mark I'm riding two bikes for my travels my longer, heavier trips are on a bike made custom for me, my uses and preferences of loading. You could only conform to a Toyo-built bike's intentions, hopefully they are close to your own. Otherwise the subtle nuances of a custom made for you is only limited by the conversations and ideas of a builder you engage. Andy Cheatham Pittsburgh On Monday, November 4, 2024 at 5:50:41 PM UTC-5 iamkeith wrote: > To Mathias' note I would suggest that Richard Sachs, Mark Nobillette and > Joe Starck were the most notable early builders.. along with but ahead of > Waterford. But I suggest that mostly because doing so illustrates a > point: that there's a lot of subjective measure as to what or whos is > "better." > > As the others note, Grant has always been very adamant that all of > Rivendell's "factories" are equally good, so who are we to challenge that. > As the others state, having Toyo make larger batches was just one step in a > continuous and ongoing process of trying to keep the bikes affordable. > > All that said, and since I own a couple of Toyo-built models, I like to > IMAGINE that they have some special magic. If you can find the Reader > article, it is pretty interesting. I want to say mid 40s in issue no. The > biggest thing, if I remember correctly, was the amount of experience and > expertise the builders had. There were several "tiers" of craftsmen, with > the most important work being left to the seniors. (Or do zI have this > mixed up with Nitto??! Maybe both?) They were/are true craftsmen, seeing > brazing as a calling and lifetime career, and multi-generational in some > cases. In theory, experience keeps someone from over-heating a tube, or > impropperly filling a joint, and "could" make a stronger and prettier > frame. In practice, it probably doesn't make much difference. I don’t know > if there's room or appreciation for that level of craftsmanship in the > world anymore. I bought the Japanese Steel coffee table book from Riv. It > is nice to think about a time when that culture DID exist. > > There were other, minordetails that only an overly obsessed bike geek > would care about, like: subtlely s-shaped chainstays on the Atlantis; > graceful, double-taper seat stays on the Rambouillet; and artfully thinned > edges on the lugs of the Saluki. Many of the high-quality steel tubes that > era are no longer made, but I don't know if they were superior or not. > Tubing manufacture and metalurgy is a huge rabbit hole to jump into, if > someone was interested. Grant has always shunned the ultra-lite, exotic > tubes in favor of durability, anyway. One other interesting thought is > that, in that era, the frames were 100% brazed (maybe with the exception of > canti posts). So a damaged tube or stay could theoretically be replaced > with greater ease. > > All the design refinements manifested in the newer models certainly > out-weigh any artisan touches of the old models. Some day, when China > takes Taiwan, we're all going to wax nostalgic about what we have now! > > > > On Monday, November 4, 2024 at 11:18:18 AM UTC-7 Jason Fuller wrote: > >> As covered, Toyo was used to build Rivendell batch frames for a period >> when it was more cost-effective than building stateside at Waterford, but a >> couple years later exchange rates made it not as economically viable to >> have frames made in Japan anymore so they started working with Maxway in >> Taiwan. The quality is very similar across all three, the tubing is >> essentially the same, but there is an emotional component that can make one >> have value over the other. >> >> On Monday 4 November 2024 at 09:47:14 UTC-8 Glen wrote: >> >>> Toyo was the early frame builder for Rivendell. They are a Japanese >>> company with a long history of building frames. >>> >>> Somewhere in a Riv Reader there is an article on them. You may be able >>> to find some information on Jim's site http://www.cyclofiend.com/rbw/ >>> >>> As for better, well of course they are if you have one :-) >>> >>> On Monday, November 4, 2024 at 10:28:14 AM UTC-7 cfic...@gmail.com >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I've occasionally seen this term in ads, posts, etc. What is the >>>> meaning of it, and is it better than a non Toyo frame? >>>> >>>> Chuck >>>> >>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/e7d9f1db-1ca9-4991-9fdb-366f161e6904n%40googlegroups.com.
