To Mathias' note I would suggest that Richard Sachs, Mark Nobillette and Joe Starck were the most notable early builders.. along with but ahead of Waterford. But I suggest that mostly because doing so illustrates a point: that there's a lot of subjective measure as to what or whos is "better."
As the others note, Grant has always been very adamant that all of Rivendell's "factories" are equally good, so who are we to challenge that. As the others state, having Toyo make larger batches was just one step in a continuous and ongoing process of trying to keep the bikes affordable. All that said, and since I own a couple of Toyo-built models, I like to IMAGINE that they have some special magic. If you can find the Reader article, it is pretty interesting. I want to say mid 40s in issue no. The biggest thing, if I remember correctly, was the amount of experience and expertise the builders had. There were several "tiers" of craftsmen, with the most important work being left to the seniors. (Or do zI have this mixed up with Nitto??! Maybe both?) They were/are true craftsmen, seeing brazing as a calling and lifetime career, and multi-generational in some cases. In theory, experience keeps someone from over-heating a tube, or impropperly filling a joint, and "could" make a stronger and prettier frame. In practice, it probably doesn't make much difference. I don’t know if there's room or appreciation for that level of craftsmanship in the world anymore. I bought the Japanese Steel coffee table book from Riv. It is nice to think about a time when that culture DID exist. There were other, minordetails that only an overly obsessed bike geek would care about, like: subtlely s-shaped chainstays on the Atlantis; graceful, double-taper seat stays on the Rambouillet; and artfully thinned edges on the lugs of the Saluki. Many of the high-quality steel tubes that era are no longer made, but I don't know if they were superior or not. Tubing manufacture and metalurgy is a huge rabbit hole to jump into, if someone was interested. Grant has always shunned the ultra-lite, exotic tubes in favor of durability, anyway. One other interesting thought is that, in that era, the frames were 100% brazed (maybe with the exception of canti posts). So a damaged tube or stay could theoretically be replaced with greater ease. All the design refinements manifested in the newer models certainly out-weigh any artisan touches of the old models. Some day, when China takes Taiwan, we're all going to wax nostalgic about what we have now! On Monday, November 4, 2024 at 11:18:18 AM UTC-7 Jason Fuller wrote: > As covered, Toyo was used to build Rivendell batch frames for a period > when it was more cost-effective than building stateside at Waterford, but a > couple years later exchange rates made it not as economically viable to > have frames made in Japan anymore so they started working with Maxway in > Taiwan. The quality is very similar across all three, the tubing is > essentially the same, but there is an emotional component that can make one > have value over the other. > > On Monday 4 November 2024 at 09:47:14 UTC-8 Glen wrote: > >> Toyo was the early frame builder for Rivendell. They are a Japanese >> company with a long history of building frames. >> >> Somewhere in a Riv Reader there is an article on them. You may be able to >> find some information on Jim's site http://www.cyclofiend.com/rbw/ >> >> As for better, well of course they are if you have one :-) >> >> On Monday, November 4, 2024 at 10:28:14 AM UTC-7 cfic...@gmail.com wrote: >> >>> I've occasionally seen this term in ads, posts, etc. What is the meaning >>> of it, and is it better than a non Toyo frame? >>> >>> Chuck >>> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/be174426-c400-4e6b-88ad-4f61b92157cen%40googlegroups.com.
