We were expressing our opinions of elegance. I think there's significant appeal across the board when there is a bike part X that replaces bike part Y and does the same job with a lot less required maintenance. The example most of us have experienced is the sealed BB unit. Introduced in the 1990s, a nice sealed BB unit is cheap, simple to install and basically maintenance free until the bearings need replacement. One could spin things and say "sealed BB's are practical for people who don't maintain their bikes", but their appeal is a lot broader than that. People who just like "annual BB overhaul" taken off their list of things to maintain also feel a benefit. I would venture the guess that virtually every iBob has used a sealed BB of some kind and likes it. I would venture very few iBob's seek out ball and cup BB's for every bike in their stable. In my opinion, premier ball and cup BB's are awesome, but I don't mind there being a cheap and low maintenance alternative. I maintain my bikes, but I don't mind being relieved of some of the maintenance tasks.
Similar to a sealed BB, I think a belt does the same job as a chain on single-ring single-cog builds. Like a sealed BB, a belt basically requires no maintenance. So if you prefer to maintain your bike over doing anything else in life, like riding your bike, or reading a book, or posting on iBob, then the loss of that job on your list may be a loss. For everybody else, less maintenance is a win. Add to that silent operation, and it's far cleaner, and the belts last 10,000 miles or more, and the cogs and rings last even longer than that. Add to that the wattage PENALTY of a belt is ~1Watt at LOW power levels. That PENALTY goes to zero and becomes a power BENEFIT over a chain at ~200W of power. The list of features of a belt were what prompted me to respond to Patrick Moore's expressed opinion of elegance. So what do you think? Do you think an IGH with a belt is more elegant than an IGH with a chain? Do you agree with Patrick Moore that *any* IGH bike is "far more elegant" than any derailleur equipped bike? Bill Lindsay El Cerrito, CA On Friday, September 13, 2024 at 12:50:03 PM UTC-7 ian m wrote: > Belt drive is extremely practical for people who don't *care *for > drivetrain maintenance. I maintain all my (and wife's) bikes and am > overjoyed with the IGH and belt drive on my Omnium cargo. > Not to mention the beautiful silence that accompanies riding with it. > > On Friday, September 13, 2024 at 3:26:39 PM UTC-4 Ray Varella wrote: > >> Belts would likely be well received if more bikes were built to >> accommodate them. >> A belt with an IGH be extremely practical for people who don’t maintain >> their bikes. >> Children’s bikes, commuter bikes and occasional use bikes that get stored >> outside would benefit. >> >> MHO >> Ray >> >> On Friday, September 13, 2024 at 11:19:47 AM UTC-7 Bill Lindsay wrote: >> >>> "elegant IMO" >>> >>> Elegance certainly is in the eye of the beholder. Even if you think >>> your derailleur-equipped bike(s) are inelegant, I think they are >>> equivalently elegant to your IGH bike(s). I think they are all valid and >>> equivalently elegant ways to realize a build. >>> >>> Pushing it to the limit of *Opinion*, in the IMO department, I'm >>> becoming convinced that chains are primarily good for being derailed. >>> Shiftability is the core attribute of contemporary chains. For me, if >>> you've got a drive train with no derailleurs, the preferable setup, in the >>> IMO elegance department is a BELT. A belt is a purpose built optimized >>> object for a no-derailleur setup. So, for optimal elegance (IMO), an IGH >>> build should be a belt build. IMO. >>> >>> Bill Lindsay >>> El Cerrito, CA >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, September 12, 2024 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-7 Patrick Moore wrote: >>> >>>> Yes to the IGH; far more elegant IMO than a FD and a chain tensioner >>>> not to mention the multiple chainrings. But the defect of IGHs is the >>>> choice of ratios, drag -- if you choose a wider-range, more-ratios hub the >>>> internal friction increases, and if you choose the lowest drag options >>>> (several tests have shown that the basic SA 3 speed hubs have no more >>>> drag, >>>> or even a wee bit less drag, overall, than derailleur systems), you are >>>> limited to the more basic 2 and 3 speed hubs which have very limited range. >>>> >>>> But if you can get by with limited ratios, they're worth considering. >>>> I've built very usable all-rounder beaters with the venerable, durable, >>>> and >>>> in fact ineradicable AW, and the nice thing is that the these are very >>>> available, very cheap -- old units are about $50 on eBay and older ones, >>>> even the 114 mm OL ones, will work fine with 120 mm frames. I've set mine >>>> up with 3d/high/overdrive for pavement cruising with about a 72" gear, >>>> 2nd/direct at about 54", and 1st/low/underdrive at about 41". >>>> >>>> Couple the AW with a double ring and you can split the gaps in the AW >>>> for a very usable 6-speed -- my second complete bike build circa 1971 had >>>> a >>>> "half stepped" AW, tho' I used 2 cogs instead of 2 rings. >>>> >>>> But even more exotic SA IGH are available on eBay; the wonderful AM >>>> medium ratio hub comes up from time to time at reasonable prices (I got >>>> mine for well under $200 each -- $150? -- IIRC in runnable condition) and >>>> again the 114 mm OL will fit 120 mm frames with only strategic >>>> anti-rotation washer selection and placement. And, it uses the ubiquitous >>>> AW trigger shifter. Direct, 15.5% overdrive, 0.8654% underdrive; mine are >>>> geared75/65/56". And the AM is reputed to be, like the AW, one of SA's >>>> most >>>> durable hubs. >>>> >>>> And even the pure gold ASC close ratio fixed 3 speed. I got my 2 very >>>> cheaply, $200 NOS and $150 used but VG. But these are much rarer; I was >>>> lucky. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 1:19 PM Mackenzy Albright < >>>> mackenzy...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> ... I think an internal real hub like a sturmey-archer 3 speed with a >>>>> compact double crank and paul tensioner would be an incredible build.... >>>>> Price aside the roaduno is the perfect candidate for some fun builds. >>>>> >>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/4243f50e-47d2-4724-ac5d-2a2bde326619n%40googlegroups.com.
