I think the PBH guideline is intended to be imperfect as are bodies. If one wanted exact physiological measurements you can goto a bike fitter and get exact measurements. With PBH it provides a wide margin of fit based on aesthetic preferences (or wheel size) within those margins as presented by Grant/Riv. I have an 89.5 give or take on the day (i have a crap neck and lower back and stiffness can definitely effect how I like my bike to fit) I can easily ride a 59 or 64 clem. I pretty well run a saddle height spindle to top of saddle 32.5" constantly. In terms of the chart I am exactly in the middle of the 59 as an ideal fit. I wouldn't size down as that is my aesthetic preference. I don't mind sizing up as I don't mind the look. As Grant has mentioned, with a step over the real limiting factor is the minimum post insertion. Even with the Clem Jr a few CM longer than the Clementine I can easily adjust fit with the stem and bar type. I also have them set up quite differently for different tasks. I've come to really appreciate the PBH as a guideline for fit vs any sort of "professional fit" guidelines. I have Ehlers danlos syndrome (crap ligaments) and often struggle to maintain aggressive positions for sustained periods. But I've found "riv fit" to be quite flexible and forgiving. I have really obsessed over fit in the past, but really have come to realize there is a large amount of flexibility if you're not a racer going for micro gains.
@ frahm those Juan Martin bars look great! i am going to set my clem smith jr up with a similar bar and a shorty stem I think. Go chase some full squishy mtbs down the trails. On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 7:29:50 AM UTC-7 fra...@gmail.com wrote: > [image: AC4E1E71-37BA-423D-B3B9-090C1C0160EB.jpeg] > > > > Thanks Paul! It’s just a small section of little trails close to home. > Spokane Valley, WA. Lots of fun lines to play around on. > > I had these Crust Juan Martin bars on for a bit but switched back to the > Bosco. Ruptured a tendon climbing and using the brake has been tough. These > bars definitely make it a mountain bike instead of a cruiser! These are the > 720mm ones. After trying the wide 800mm bars for a while, narrower is just > easier and n my shoulders. > > > On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 6:45:30 PM UTC-7 Paul Clifton wrote: > >> @frahm - Awesome shot. Looks like a fun trail. Where is that? >> >> @Jason - The Knolly is definitely a fun bike, but I consider moving to a >> hard tail all the time. I just don't get wild enough to take advantage of a >> full suspension bike. I kind of think i would still like to have a bike >> with some suspension in my stable. My shoulders are starting to feel the >> trail a little too much these days, but hopefully some strength and >> mobility work will sort that out. I definitely want to keep a bike around >> for the occasional trip to the downhill spots, so I'll prob always have >> something around with modern geo. >> >> @rmrose >> Handlebars - The bars I'm running definitely aren't straight, they just >> aren't anywhere near as swept back as the Bosco. Tumbleweed Pursuader >> <https://tumbleweed.cc/collections/products/products/persuader-bar> It's >> 50mm rise and 31 degree back sweep. It's also 800mm wide, which is too >> wide. I'm about to swap them for Velo Orange Seine bars, are narrower (750 >> mm), have a little more sweep, and a little less rise. And I'll try Wavies >> after that, but I think 660mm wide is too narrow, and they may have too >> much sweep for my wrists ... We'll see. The main thing is that the Boscos, >> even with a 110mm stem, hit my knees going around switch backs. I love the >> upright position for cruising, but it just didn't work for trail riding. A >> shorter stem and wider bars does change the handling a bit - It's a little >> more responsive I'd say, so with the long stem and Boscos, the handling is >> a little mellower and the bike swoops a bit more. >> >> Tires - Yeah, G-one's are great! I've found that for me, aggressive tread >> is really only necessary when conditions get a little sloppy, and we got >> basically zero rain all summer, so I haven't needed it. We'll see what the >> fall brings, but we're not supposed to ride muddy trails either - but >> that's more like when the entire trail is just wet. When it rains two or >> three days a week, there are always muddy spots a day or two after it >> rains, but we've pretty much been cleared to ride at that point. Just not >> like the 24 hours after a solid storm. Anyway, the 2.8's G ones grip every >> bit of bone dry trail and rock I've thrown at them, and since I cruise on >> this bike too, I like running the smoothest tire that gets the job done. >> I'll prob try the Terravails eventually and I have some 57mm G one's to try >> out as well, but changing tubeless tires is a PITA so I might dig up some >> more wheels. My Knolly has pretty aggressive tires (Maxis Asegai in the >> front) and it really digs in to the soft stuff and grabs the slabs, but I >> haven't come close to washing out on the G Ones in the dry dirt or rocks at >> all. >> >> Saddle Height - My saddle in those photos is at about 68cm. My PBH is >> like 82cm, but I don't remember what shoes I was wearing when I measured >> it. My saddle height for path cruising is about 71cm, but, like I said, I >> drop it a couple CM for riding single track, and I don't always put it back >> up. For the medium Gus, my saddle height is just slightly too low to run a >> Carradice bag with a bagman rack, but it works great with a more typical >> rear rack. It's also a little too low to run a standard medium size >> BagsxBird saddle bag without a rack (I think). >> >> Paul in AR >> >> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 4:49:50 PM UTC-4 rmro...@gmail.com >> wrote: >> >>> This is why I think there are too many ways to screw up that >>> measurement. I am 5’10” and consistently measure PBH at or near 85-86. I >>> have my saddles at 72 across the board. I did have my saddles higher before >>> moving to the mid foot position. >>> In any event, I sent an e mail to Antonio @ Riv to ask about the saddle >>> height on his Susie - 75. >>> That settles it for me. If I get the opportunity to purchase a Susie / >>> Gus it will be the 53. Which is ok - I like 27.5 too!:) >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Oct 22, 2022, at 3:47 PM, Brian Turner <brok...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> I’m right there with you, Richard. I think PBH gets you in the ballpark, >>> but I always feel like a bit of an oddball whenever I read Rivendell talk >>> about how to figure it in relation to saddle height. >>> >>> For example, I’m 5’8” with a 84cm PBH. However, my saddle height is >>> consistently 71-72cm across all my bikes, so I always feel like I’m riding >>> my saddles lower than I should be. But, if I raise them any higher, I get >>> knee pain immediately. >>> >>> On Oct 22, 2022, at 1:53 PM, Richard Rose <rmro...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Paul, regarding your wheel size comments; what is your saddle height if >>> I may ask? I sometimes get a little frustrated by PBH measurements. There >>> is built in inaccuracy imho taking that measurement. Look at this pic of a >>> Riv staff bike. This is a size 56 with presumably 29” wheels. My best guess >>> as to my PBH would be 84. The owner of this bike is 85.5. If it were as >>> simple as that I might conclude that I should ride the 56 vs. the 53. BUT, >>> if I knew the saddle height of the pictured bike it would be more useful I >>> think. It is complicated by the fact that I use a 2-3 cm lower saddle >>> height than a 84 PBH might suggest because I have adopted a mid foot pedal >>> position. I would love to know the saddle height of the pictured bike. Like >>> you, I like the 27.5 wheels and could probably make both sizes work. >>> [image: image0.jpeg] >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Oct 20, 2022, at 11:43 AM, Paul Clifton <paulgc...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> I ride my Gus as my primary mountain bike. I have ridden a Rosco Bebe, >>> and MTBubbe, a Jones and a full suspension Knolly Warden on the same trails >>> for several years. All of then except for the Jones use 27.5 wheels: max >>> tire sizes = MTBubbe and Rosco Bebe 2.35", Jones 29x3", Knolly 2.5", Gus >>> 2.8". I didn't measure those, that's the nominal size of tire I run on them. >>> >>> Of them all, the Gus is my favorite for everything short of black >>> diamond downhill. I also don't jump or drop anymore (or for the time being) >>> so on blue/black flow trails, I brake over the table tops and roll around >>> the gaps. >>> >>> The Rosco Bebe and MTBubbe are similar to a Clem L in a lot of ways. The >>> Bebe has shorter chainstays, a 68 degree seat tube, and a longer effective >>> top tube, so it requires Bosco bars. The MTBubbe is a relatively short bike >>> in terms of modern Rivs, and it's extremely agile, yet stable. Like an old >>> school MTB but without the endo potential and twitchy handling. They are >>> both totally capable of handling all trails, and I've even ridden plenty of >>> black downhill trails on the MTBubbe with the seat lowered a bit, and I've >>> take a few good sized drops on it. It's all around just a really good >>> mountain bike. It's super agile and feels like riding a skateboard >>> sometimes, because it's so small. It fits me; it's just a little bike and I >>> love it. >>> >>> The Jones basically just rolls over anything without question. The huge >>> wheels really change the way I approach the trails. Which leads me to my >>> first big point >>> >>> - What size Gus/Susie would you get? *wheel size* >>> >>> 29er wheels vs 27.5 is a legitimate concern when thinking about a >>> mountain bike. I know I like 27.5 wheels better, but a lot of modern trails >>> assume you're riding a 29x2.5 to 29x2.8 tire and the size of the rocks and >>> rollers is engineered with that in mind. And bigger wheels just roll over >>> more stuff easier. For me, it's easy to let the Jones (and Knolly) get out >>> of control on descents, and on the Jones, it's harder to reign it in, >>> because the wheels just keep going. That's a rider thing, but my fat 27.5 >>> Gus rolls over everything, just without being completely unphased. It >>> experiences the bumps more, and therefore, so do it. >>> >>> My second big comment is about *dropper posts *- I would also like to >>> have a dropper post on my Gus, but I don't actually think it matters much. >>> I still like the Gus more than my Jones or Knolly that both have them. When >>> I get to the trail, I lower my seat about 2 cm and usually just leave it >>> that way. Short of really gnarly downhill stuff (and I do mean really >>> gnarly), I'm able to get my butt back far enough to handle it. I just >>> bought a QR seat post bolt, so that should make my life even easier. >>> >>> Which brings me to my third point: *handlebars* >>> Riv put Boscos on the Gus and Susy. That makes for a great upright >>> riding position, but IME, they are bad for mountain biking. They hit my >>> legs when I go around switch backs and the wrist angle makes it hard to >>> hang on properly when I'm getting my butt back to go down steep stuff. I >>> put a 35mm stem and Tumbleweed Pursuader bars on mine and it changed the >>> ride for the better in nearly every possible way. The mostly straight bars >>> still sometimes hit my legs on the sharpest downhill switch backs, but I >>> think that's a me problem and not a bike problem (a dropper would prob help >>> that though). >>> >>> *Handling* - The Gus handling is very responsive - like the best modern >>> MTBs, it's really easy to change the direction of the front wheel, to >>> quickly correct a line or keep it from flopping over when you hit a rock >>> the wrong way. Unlike modern MTBs, it holds its line extremely well, on >>> rough stuff AND when cruising. The length of the bike keeps it rolling >>> smoothly, even when the chunk tries to throw it around, so, unlike a full >>> suspension modern MTB with short chainstay and a steep seat tube, it's >>> stable on more than just the fast descents, ... >>> >>> so there's *Climbing* - The Gus is the most fun I've had climbing on an >>> MTB ever. It is hard to get the front wheel up over ledges, but the back >>> wheel is always completely planted and when it grabs a rock, the pedals >>> just keep it rolling. Tubeless 27.5x2.8 tires just kind of squish into any >>> surface and push the bike on up. It's hard to describe, but it's really >>> wonderful. As has been mentioned, I also climb easier and faster on it than >>> a lot of people on modern MTBs around here, especially full squish, which >>> I'm more and more convinced gives up a lot in the climbing department. >>> >>> I would absolutely choose my Gus for my single bike. The only reason I >>> haven't sold the Jones yet is that I want to get the Gus out on a >>> singletrack bikepacking trip, just to see how it compares loaded. I'm sure >>> it would make a great camping bike, especially on forest service roads, but >>> I do wonder whether the 29er wheels on the Jones are better for loaded >>> singletrack. >>> >>> My only other comment is about *terrain*. As others have mentioned, >>> where you ride makes a huge difference. In NW Arkansas, we have lots of >>> roots, rocks of all sizes, narrow trails, steep grades, and plenty of >>> places where some basic trials skills are required. I do walk some sections >>> of some trails on any bike I ride. We also have plenty of black diamond >>> downhill trails that take you rolling down vertical rock slabs and off >>> washed out ledges. No bike that performs exceptionally on that stuff is >>> going to be fun riding on a paved, flat, multi-use path along a creek for >>> very long. If you doing shuttle runs, get a full suspension bike. If you're >>> doing long mixed terrain rides (MUP to gravel to single track and back) >>> something more versatile is obviously the move. And even when I drive to >>> the trail, I like the Gus better than a modern MTB with slacker head tube >>> and steeper seat tube - it's more comfortable and just as capable. >>> >>> I'd love to see photos of everyone's terrain. Here are a few of my Gus >>> that show some of the gnarlier stuff I rode on a 20 mile single track and >>> path ride a couple sundays ago: >>> https://www.pandastuff.net/nextcloud/index.php/s/teREsXEdGSErnGk >>> >>> Paul in AR >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:39:49 AM UTC-4 rmro...@gmail.com >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Greetings all. First, does anyone recall reading in one of the updates >>>> about additional Susie / Gus bikes becoming available? >>>> Second, who is using their Susie / Gus as their primary mountain bike? >>>> Third, is anyone able to comments on a direct comparison between a >>>> Susie and a Clem L? >>>> My Clem never ceases to amaze me. It is, without doubt the most >>>> comfortable bike I have ever owned. I am so ingrained to my position on >>>> the >>>> bike that I am now uncomfortable on my dedicated singletrack bike - a full >>>> suspension bike with relatively strait handlebars. The Clem is really good >>>> off road and on mild singletrack, but its weight and flexibility have kept >>>> me from giving it a go on some of the rowdy, rock and root strewn tracks I >>>> like to ride on the full squish bike. >>>> Now, I have no illusions about any rigid bike being as plush and >>>> capable on these trails as the suspended bike. But I do have some >>>> experience riding a rigid bike with big tires (Jones 29") and I liked it. >>>> The notion of a bike that puts me in the exact same position as my Clem >>>> but >>>> dedicated to singletrack has me more than a little intrigued. >>>> Appreciate any comments / thoughts. >>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/5d6c7803-e42c-45c5-b10b-524578973701n%40googlegroups.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/5d6c7803-e42c-45c5-b10b-524578973701n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/59AABBF7-57D7-47FA-8134-74D55DB14941%40gmail.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/59AABBF7-57D7-47FA-8134-74D55DB14941%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/60B929C8-3892-4735-B0D6-8807A6B3D01E%40gmail.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/60B929C8-3892-4735-B0D6-8807A6B3D01E%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 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