I'm going to cherry pick some things out of here
"... it can be really mess or it can be really clean."
This sort of comment doesn't really say much. What's typical, what's the
probability of it being "really clean", what's the probability of it being
"really mess"? Are there particular tire / rim combinations that make one
or the other extreme more likely? These are things inquiring minds want to
know.
"Certain new things are actually empirically better than old things.
That doesn't mean you have to adopt them or like them. ... Point is, it's
ok to be on different sides of an issue, but I think it's important to know
why you are on that side."
Which I might paraphrase as:
the Truth (with a capital t) is tubeless is objectively better, of
course you can keep doing things the worse way, but you ought to know why
you are rejecting proven progress.
Baaa. With most things bicycle "Better" is situational and dependent on the
desires and proclivities of the rider. The conditions one rides in, how
much one objects to roadside tube repairs, and how much one dislikes latex
goo related messes are all factors that reasonably impact the determination
of what is "better" by/for an individual rider.
"... up until about 5 years ago, I was staunchly anti tubeless. I had
to prove it's utility with a bunch of tests before I adopted it."
I think there's a line in a Frank Zapa song that goes something like "he
used to drop acid and now he loves god, but he's still got the same look in
his eye"
On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 6:35:49 AM UTC-7, James / Analog Cycles wrote:
>
> Both lists are missing rim prep, which is a few steps, but none of this is
> about numbers, really.
>
> Watch that tutorial, it can be really mess or it can be really clean. I'd
> say on the whole, cleaning your chain is messier than setting up tubeless,
> and you have to do it about 52 times more often, if you are going thru a
> set of tires in a year. 104 times more often if you are going thru tires
> every two years.
>
> I've fixed flats with tubes in pouring rain, covered in mud filled with
> mica, and put the new tube in and had it immediately flat. When your tire
> is filled with mud, there is no way to clean it out in the field. I've had
> to fix flats in heavily mosquito infested areas, which, even for a fast
> tube changes (I've been a bike shop nerd since I was 15 and I'm 38 now...
> probably have changed a few thousand tubes), means you are gunna get
> covered in bites. With tubeless you probably wouldn't get the flat in the
> first place, but if you did, you could plug it with out even getting your
> hands dirty. You don't even take the wheel off. On one trip in relatively
> recent memory, I was riding RTP tires on some bad roads and ripped a 2 inch
> hole in the sidewall. Fixed it without wheel removal. A few minutes
> later, a 1 inch rip, again fixed without wheel removal. Then a big sharp
> rock took a chunk out of the tread. Plugged it. No tire removal. Sure
> there was some sealant around, but sealant is easier to get off your hands
> than black chain oil any day.
>
> Having worked in shops at this point longer than I have not worked in
> shops, I've seen the best mechanics accidentally puncture a tube before
> it's even inflated, or have the tire not seat properly and blow the tire
> off the rim, often leading to completely trashed tires as the casing blows
> off the bead.
>
> No system is perfect, that's for sure. I wish tubeless didn't use a goo,
> but I'd rather deal with the goo and the ease of fixing flats than a bunch
> of tubes any day. For the record, up until about 5 years ago, I was
> staunchly anti tubeless. I had to prove it's utility with a bunch of tests
> before I adopted it.
>
> I do that with every new technology that our shop adopts. Be it 1x, disc
> brakes, tubeless. It goes through a vetting process. Not everything makes
> it. Hydraulic brakes don't have me convinced. Electric shifting certainly
> doesn't. I built a really nice front suspension bike last summer, it was
> so boring to ride that I have parted it out already.
>
> Certain new things are actually empirically better than old things. That
> doesn't mean you have to adopt them or like them. I love my wood stove.
> But after going a year with out refridgeration and using a cold spring to
> keep things cool, I can say I'm stoked on my DC solar powered fridge. I
> love film cameras, but what I really like is the quality of their lenses.
> So I put 60 year old lenses on my Sony Digital camera. My job as a bike
> builder is to make sure people have the easiest to maintain and most
> reliable bike possible. Extensive field testing has shown me that 99% of
> tubeless flats can be fixed without a tube, faster, and easier than with a
> tube. To me that's a win for my customers. Add in the lighter weight,
> lower tire pressures and ability to run softer tubes, and you have a recipe
> for a good idea.
>
> By the way, soapy water spraying around is the only time my shop gets such
> a luxury...
>
> -james
>
> On Thursday, April 16, 2020 at 10:29:15 PM UTC-4, ted wrote:
>>
>> Someone I won't name, because he should be gratefully honored for his
>> contributions and definitely never hectored about such trivia, wrote he
>> could think of at least 11 steps to mounting a tube in a tire off the top
>> of his head.
>>
>> I only think of 10.
>> Put a layer of rim tape on the rim
>> Put one bead of the tire on the rim down in the well
>> Put talc on the tube or the inside surface of the tire.
>> Put just enough air in the tube to give it some shape
>> Put the tube inside the tire and around the rim (with the valve
>> through the hole of course)
>> Push the other bead of the tire onto the rim and down into the well
>> Make sure the tube isn't stuck under a tire bead anyplace
>> Inflate to seat the beads
>> Make sure the beads are seated
>> Reduce pressure to what you ride
>>
>> What am I missing?
>>
>> Now for tubeless its (assuming no difficulties/hiccups)
>> Put n layers of tubeless rim tape on the rim
>> Install the valve stem, pull the core
>> Slather soapy water al over the place
>> Put the tire on the rim
>> Use a compressor to blow air through the valve body to seat the tire
>> (may spray soapy water about doing this)
>> Put sealant in through the valve
>> Put the valve core back in
>> Inflate the tire (may have sealant spraying about doing this)
>> Check that sealant isn't coming out around the bead
>> Spin the wheel a few times
>> Let it sit overnight (reminds me of gluing tubulars)
>> Re-inflate to riding pressure because it probably got soft overnight
>>
>> Now I'll agree that that doesn't sound too bad, only a dozen steps. I
>> also agree that anyone who works on stuff, and has a shop or a garage,
>> should get a compressor. Well worth the investment (can you say air tools,
>> fun). But with the potential for spraying soapy water and/or sealant about,
>> and the risk of significant difficulty seating/sealing the beads etc, I
>> don't see how an honest appraisal can really conclude its not significantly
>> more trouble than installing tires with tubes. Kinda like gluing tubulars.
>> Now I can't quote anybody saying tubeless setup is trivial and as easy as
>> using tubes, but I feel like some proponents sort of imply something close
>> to that. Am I wrong?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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