I am excited about the move to discourse and the possibilities that it opens up. I am concerned and sad to hear so many voices upset about the move. I hope the transition goes well and we don't lose too many voices. -Bas
On Thu, Apr 11, 2024 at 12:26 AM Adam Nielsen via QGIS-User < qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org> wrote: > > I didn't see it coming honestly. Make it hard for them so only the > > best ones can join us? > > Not quite - make asking questions take more effort than doing your own > research, so lazy people are encouraged to find their own answers > before asking. It's not about excluding people, it's about minimising > the types of questions that could be solved by looking at the > documentation or by doing a web search. > > > > In my own experience, if it's too easy for people to ask questions, > > > then they tend to do so before doing their own research. > > > > Don't you think it is already the case. Moderators everywhere are > > doing this job to remind people to just do their homework before > > asking. > > Yes and this is my argument exactly. Those places make it too easy for > lazy people to ask questions, and so you end up with moderators > spending large amounts of time reminding people of basic things. In my > opinion, instead of bringing in more moderators, it is better to reduce > the amount of these low-effort questions. > > > Would you want to make life harder for those who still want to learn, > > but just don't get the mailing list stuff? > > It is very easy to subscribe to a mailing list. If you can't figure > that out, I think you will have no hope understanding QGIS. But it is > not about making it hard or complicated, it is making it so that people > are encouraged to do at least a little work on their own before asking > questions. > > > From my experience, stupid questions are either not answered, or very > > gently refocused on the good way of asking questions, which is also > > something I like in our communities. > > That is true, but it seems this list does not get very many questions > like that. If we start to get a lot of them, the community's attitude > could change. > > > > This is why generally speaking, it's often better to add some > > > hurdles in before people can ask questions, such as figuring out > > > how to subscribe to an e-mail list. > > > > This is a radical point of view. Another option is to make them pass > > through helpers that reminds them to search before asking. Something > > positive, like when you create an issue in gitlab and the UI gently > > propose you existing similar questions when you start typing. > > That is fine too, as long as people cannot ignore it and just keep > typing their simple question. > > Look at the Microsoft support forums for example. They are next to > useless, because it is so easy to post questions. There are hundreds > of questions asking the same thing, and almost as many "answers" by > people who have no idea what they are talking about, but are trying to > be helpful by suggesting something that worked for them once when they > had a completely different problem. > > So although their forums are easily searchable, it is incredibly rare > to get a usable answer from them because the posts are of such low > quality and often outright wrong. > > Contrast that to StackExchange. Yes, the Q&A format is limited, > however by removing low-effort posts and incorrect answers, their > content is consistently high quality and extremely useful. Many times > I have done a web search and found my answer on a StackExchange site. > > Perhaps these are two extremes and the best solution is somewhere in > the middle, but hopefully it at least explains the reasons behind my > arguments. > > > > If you still think Discourse is the way to go, I would suggest > > > running it in parallel with the e-mail list for a few months, and > > > compare how many questions get answered there vs here. > > > > We can't mirror with both sides being written. If we go this way, we > > would all have to follow both channels. > > I think it would be a mistake to switch entirely in one go. I am not > saying we run both permanently, just temporarily, to give it a trial > run and see how it goes. This will give the list users time to try out > Discourse and see how it goes. Many of the list people will likely set > up Discourse to work like a mailing list anyway, so they won't have to > follow both channels - everything will come into the same inbox. > > If Discourse works, then as more and more questions are asked there, > fewer questions will be asked on the lists, and perhaps at some point > they can be turned off and nobody will even notice. > > I am reminded of the recent Reddit debacle, where management forced > their changes onto their community of volunteers, and as a result, a > large majority of them left the community entirely. It does seem like > there is a similar push here, to move everyone to Discourse whether we > like it or not. > > And that is fine, I am not paying for the servers, but if having a > helpful community is of value to the project, it is probably best to > take things slowly and give people a chance to adjust, rather than to > dictate what is happening. > > > Older ones will stay in mailing lists, Users will try Discourse, > > community is split in half. > > Remember the community being split in half, is exactly the same as half > the community leaving because they do not like the change. > > > I remind you that the issue is that we do not have any plan at osgeo > > to provide a mailman 3 solution. And new users just don't use mailing > > lists. > > That is fine, I have no problem with it. I just think it would be wise > to trial the new solution before forcing everyone onto it, and to keep > the possibility open of revisiting Mailman 3 if it turns out that > Discourse is not working. If you trial Discourse and it ends up > working out really well, well then there's no problem! > > > Clearly if Discourse doesn't make it for PSC and user lists, after > > correct communication and after the transition period, we'll discuss > > it again. > > By then you will probably have lost all the "old users" though, so it > may be too late to reverse course. > > Cheers, > Adam. > _______________________________________________ > QGIS-User mailing list > QGIS-User@lists.osgeo.org > List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user > Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user > -- ___________________________ Sebastian "Bas* " Gutwein *rhymes with Josh Regenerative Design Group 1 Chevalier Ave Greenfield, Ma 01301 Web: regenerativedesigngroup.com (631) 241-1018 *Look close, think big, make change. *
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