I do appreciate the good advice to use DBMS, I am doing that too and understand the advantages. I would never consider using a geopackage if I thought that multiple people would want to edit them at the same time. But that is not the case and that is not my problem. Sometimes, I just want to keep geodata in a file on a network share and run the risk (in my case insignificant) that the file will be corrupted by multi user access. This I can do with shapefiles, but unlike the shapefiles, I have to set the read-only flag on the geopackages stored on the network to get decent rendering speed, without ever wanting to edit the files. I think wanting to use file based storage for geodata in a networked environment is not unreasonable, even if there is some danger of corruption. All file based formats are probably subject to that risk, but I repeat, that issue is not what I am talking about, just the rendering speed of data in a geopackage that is not set to read-only. I suspect that there is no solution and that I will just have to live with this - as I have done for years. It is just a bit annoying. And I am surprised how little it is discussed.
Árni On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 13:46, Sadowski Jarosław via QGIS-User < qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org> wrote: > +1 > > > > Don’t use file formats to edit by multiple users. I was occurring some > critical problems, as for example disappearing objects from database or > LOOOOONG read for first time ☹ > > > > Use PostgreSQL or other solutions like: > > Mergin Maps: Collect, Store and Analyze your Geo-Data Easily > <https://merginmaps.com/> > > GIS Support » GIS.Box (gis--support-pl.translate.goog) > <https://gis--support-pl.translate.goog/gis-box/?_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp> > > > > > *_________________________________* > > *Jarosław Sadowski* > Kierownik Zespołu ds. Ochrony Środowiska | *Biuro Strategii i Planowania, > Projektowania i Inżynierii Podprogramu Kolejowego* > *Environmental Protection Team Leader **| Railway Subprogramme Strategy & > Planning, Design & Engineering Department* > e: jaroslaw.sadow...@cpk.pl > m: +48 532 720 230 > > *From:* QGIS-User <qgis-user-boun...@lists.osgeo.org> *On Behalf Of *Bo > Victor Thomsen via QGIS-User > *Sent:* Thursday, March 16, 2023 2:35 PM > *To:* qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org > *Subject:* Re: [Qgis-user] [EXTERNAL] Re: Geopackage slow on NAS if not > read-only > > > > UWAGA: Ta wiadomość pochodzi spoza CPK Sp. z o.o. Proszę pomóż zadbać o > bezpieczeństwo naszej organizacji. Zastanów się, zanim otworzysz link lub > załącznik. > > > > When any user on your network access the geopackage layer and (maybe > unnecessarily) puts the layer in edit mode, there will be created 2 extra > files in the same directory as the gpkg file resides in. And QGIS behaves > different regarding *both* read and write operations when these file are > present. This is probably the explanation of the longer reading times, even > if nobody actually is editing the layer. When the user stops the editing > mode for the layer, the 2 files disappear. > > You can check if this is the explanation: > > 1. Open the gpkg layer in read mode on one computer, check the access > speed of the same layer on *another* computer. > 2. Set the layer in edit mode on the first computer, check the access > speed to the layer on the second computer > 3. Revert the edit mode on the first computer, check the access speed > to the layer on the second computer. > > I am guessing, that situations 1 and 3 are fast, while situation 2 is > slow. > > First of all: Never, ever try to implement some kind of multi-user editing > on a file based format, where the file resides on a networked drive. It > will never, ever work reliably. At some point 2 users will try to edit the > same layer at the same time and it will go kaboom (I can read from your > mails that you are aware about this). This goes for - probably - every file > based format on a network drive. > > Secondly: What about making the gpkg file read-only at the network share > level for most of the users. And only granting write access to the gpkg > file for certain users that are instructed in *not* setting the layer in > edit mode unless it's strictly necessary ? > > The best solution: Install Postgres/PostGIS on your NAS > > Med venlig hilsen / Best regards > > > > Bo Victor Thomsen > > Den 16-03-2023 kl. 13:49 skrev Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User: > > Thank you for the various responses. > > Let me be clear that what I am griping about is not the locking aspect > that would allow multiple users to edit without conflict. I fully > understand that the geopackage is not safe for that, nor is the shapefile > and perhaps also the file geodatabase. In my case, the likelihood of two > people wanting to edit the same geopackage is negligible, so I take my > chances. My only gripe is the rendering speed of larger geopackages on a > shared network, if they are not set specifically to read-only. That is not > a problem with the shapefile and I think probably not with a file > geodatabase. I am a long time user of geopackages in a networked > environment and I will continue to use them - they are great - there is > just this problem of rendering speed over a network. > > > > Árni > > > > > > On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 12:33, Sebastian Gutwein <b...@rdgland.com> wrote: > > This is all beyond my expertise but I have also struggled with the > effective use of gpkg’s. In my case over google drive. > > Here is what SQLite (the underlying software for gpkgs) says about using a > SQLite database on a network: > > https://www.sqlite.org/useovernet.html > <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqlite.org%2Fuseovernet.html&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gF5jBExKrp2Hlks%2FQEHefiiG0FJFhqAG8fJ0VxBs4Kc%3D&reserved=0> > > > > I hope that someday someone implements a system that allows this to work > efficiently as gpkgs are better in many respects than shapefiles. Perhaps > Geodiff could be part of that solution. > > https://github.com/MerginMaps/geodiff > <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FMerginMaps%2Fgeodiff&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=bcngOeZeGv1iT%2BEEOV2Vtf3%2FZRXxYLBvgRuX0SMFOdI%3D&reserved=0> > > > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 8:04 AM Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User < > qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org> wrote: > > Hi Jorge > > I understand what you are pointing at and I use databases such as > Postgres/PostGIS also with good results. The thing is that working with > data in files sometimes has advantages and that is certainly how shapefiles > have been used. The geopackage has been suggested as a replacement for the > shapefile in the context of regular QGIS usage without any caveat saying > that geopackages only replace the storage and transfer role of shapefiles > and that geopackages should not be used for editing in a shared > environment, as is perfectly possible with shapefiles and widely practiced. > Not all users have access to database systems such as Postgres. I'm just > looking for some clarity on best practices for the common scenario of > working with QGIS using file based data in a network environment. > > > > Árni > > > > > > On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 11:47, Jorge Gustavo Rocha via QGIS-User < > qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org> wrote: > > Hi, > > For data storage and manipulation databases are suitable. Files are not. > > Geopackages are wonderful to transfer data between systems or to archive > an entire project (snapshot of data, styles and the project itself). > > Regards, > > Jorge > > On 16/03/23 11:30, Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User wrote: > > Thank you Jarosław. Isn't it strange that this was discussed 5 years ago > and SMB file sharing is very common? Would a linux based NAS be able to use > another protocol? What are my options for file based data sharing in QGIS? > Abandoning geopackages is not a realistic option for me, but I could get a > different kind of NAS unit, if that helps, what kind then? What amazes me > is how little I see this discussed. There was a message in this thread this > morning from Thomas Struller, but I am not sure it is about the same root > problem, maybe Thomas can elaborate. > > Should this perhaps be discussed in another forum, closer to the > development of geopackage/sqlite? > > > > Árni Geirsson > > > > On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 09:52, Sadowski Jarosław <jaroslaw.sadow...@cpk.pl> > wrote: > > Long story short: gpkg is bad idea for network drives as SMB/NAS etc > > > > Sources: > Write-Ahead Logging (sqlite.org) > <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqlite.org%2Fwal.html%23advantages&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=vrWFTUkAozdYRmNNtVRiMz5YiGTzAso2UQDgEzkzr6w%3D&reserved=0> > > writing gpkg and sqlite on samba shares fails · Issue #628 · r-spatial/sf > · GitHub > <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fr-spatial%2Fsf%2Fissues%2F628&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=aC2PYy3vqIWzu3XXWMjhggZawmN9dXQcunqObizOQNY%3D&reserved=0> > > > > > > > > *_________________________________* > > *Jarosław Sadowski* > Kierownik Zespołu ds. 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If you received this message by mistake, contact the sender of > the message immediately and delete its content > > *From:* QGIS-User <qgis-user-boun...@lists.osgeo.org> *On Behalf Of *Árni > Geirsson via QGIS-User > *Sent:* Thursday, March 16, 2023 10:18 AM > *To:* jhubbsl...@att.net > *Cc:* qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org > *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [Qgis-user] Geopackage slow on NAS if not > read-only > > > > UWAGA: Ta wiadomość pochodzi spoza CPK Sp. z o.o. Proszę pomóż zadbać o > bezpieczeństwo naszej organizacji. Zastanów się, zanim otworzysz link lub > załącznik. > > > > Yes, as far as I know, the NAS unit uses SMB as the file sharing protocol. > I used another NAS from QNAP before this one, also using SMB and with the > same problem. I thought pretty much all of the Linux based NAS units were > using SMB and if that is the problem, it should be widespread, but I don't > see any signs of that. Is SMB a problem for geopackage? > > I did a quick test in QGIS: A dataset of 178.000 line features is rendered > in about 1 second from a read only geopackage. When I remove the read only > flag, it is rendered in about 5 seconds. > > If I store the geopackage on the local hard drive, the problem disappears, > read-write or read-only does not matter. > > I have had suspicions about SMB being part of the problem but I don't know > enough about file access deep down in the operating system to understand it. > > > > Árni Geirsson > > > > > > > > On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 01:45, jhubbslist--- via QGIS-User < > qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org> wrote: > > Árni - > > > > Are you using SMB/CIFS to access this NAS, and are you using wifi or > Ethernet to connect to it? > > > > - Jeff > > > > On 3/15/23 3:30 PM, Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User wrote: > > Hello all QGIS and geopackage users. > > I store my geopackages on a Synology RackStation NAS unit, like all other > documents that are kept on a shared drive in the office. For larger > datasets, the rendering is very slow, unless I open the properties dialog > for the file in Windows and check the read only box. After that, the > features are rendered blazingly fast. Nothing else is changed to see the > dramatic difference in the rendering speed. Luckily, I don't need to edit > many of the larger datasets, such as road networks and elevation contours > and the geopackage can be kept read only. Shapefiles are not affected. > > What explains this and does anyone know how to solve the problem? > > Do other users experience this? > > > > Árni Geirsson > > > > _______________________________________________ > > QGIS-User mailing list > > QGIS-User@lists.osgeo.org > > List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user > <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.osgeo.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fqgis-user&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zWL3lJDscTuLqjNO8Wi1oFcqS%2FsdczPZY3x1hiAYyBM%3D&reserved=0> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user > 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Amazing! But possibly garbled. Sebastian Gutwein > Regenerative Design Group 1 Chevalier Ave Greenfield MA b...@rdgland.com > (631) 241-1018 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > QGIS-User mailing list > > QGIS-User@lists.osgeo.org > > List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user > <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.osgeo.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fqgis-user&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353712104%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=mW4NbdtL2GFA1o2wNdAzIeEra7oa6XFo010WXMpypvU%3D&reserved=0> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user > <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.osgeo.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fqgis-user&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353712104%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=mW4NbdtL2GFA1o2wNdAzIeEra7oa6XFo010WXMpypvU%3D&reserved=0> > > _______________________________________________ > QGIS-User mailing list > QGIS-User@lists.osgeo.org > List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user > Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user >
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