Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
> mystilleef wrote:
> > Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
>
> >>>>>>point 2 : so anyone *can* "illegimately tampering with an object's
> >>>>>>internal data" at will.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>And this is robust how?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>You can do just the same in Java or C++.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>OMG!
> >>
> >>It's common knowledge.
> >>
> > I ask how your solution is robust,
>
> This is definitively not a problem with "my solution". Python has *no*
> access restriction. Anyone can do what he wants with any attribute of
> your Python classes.
>
> > and you go off talking about Java
> > and C++.
>
> Whose access restriction is Joke.
>
> >
> >>>>>>point 3 : anyway it's not *my* system that will then crash - but the
> >>>>>>system of the one who "illegimately" played with my package's objects
> >>>>>>internals. And as far as I'm concerned, it's none of my problem - they
> >>>>>>were marked as implementation, so anyone playing with them is on it's
> >>>>>>own. FWIW, I suspect that if someone want to muck with implementation,
> >>>>>>he certainly has a good legitimate reason to do so, and will do her best
> >>>>>>to not break anything. Else he's a complete idiot and there's no cure
> >>>>>>for this.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>You can't be serious. Please tell me you are joking.
> >>>>
> >>>>I'm deadly serious and definitively not joking. There's no cure for
> >>>>idiocy, and there's definitively nothing like an idiot-proof system.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>Sure, but calling users idiots for as result of your laziness or poor
> >>>design or lack of robustness is equally idiotic.
> >>
> >>Ok, then 99.99% of Python programmers are lazy, have poor design skills
> >>and are unable to write a robust application. So they are idiotic too.
> >>
> > If you say so.
>
> Logical derivation from your above statement.
>
> >
> >>>>>>point 4 : since we have computed attributes, turning a "public data
> >>>>>>attribute" (to use your idiom) into a "private/protected data attribute
> >>>>>>with accessors" *without breaking the interface* is not even a
> >>>>>>non-brainer.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Now, please, can you explain the difference between :
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>class Complicated(object):
> >>>>>>def __init__(self, data):
> >>>>>> self.data = data
> >>>>>>def _get_data(self):
> >>>>>> return self._data
> >>>>>>def _set_data(self, data):
> >>>>>> self._data = data
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>and
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>class Pragmatic(object):
> >>>>>>def __init__(self, data)
> >>>>>> self.data = data
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>and find any *valid* reason to use the first solution instead of the
> >>>>>>second ? ('that's what the book says' not being a valid reason).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I don't know it's your code not mine.
> >>>>
> >>>>IOW : you're unable to find any valid reason to use the second solution
> >>>>instead of the first (of course : there's none), but refuse to admit it.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>Hey, I didn't write that code. You did! You deal with it. My input on
> >>>__your__ code at this point is irrelevant.
> >>
> >>It's totally relevant, and you're still unable to come with any valid
> >>reason to prefer the first solution over the second. I'm totally
> >>confident that if there was *any* defendable reason to favor the first
> >>approach, you'd have chosen to answer instead of playing dumb.
> >>
> >
> > Chosen what answer? First of all, I have no idea what you are trying to
> > do.
>
> Make you understand why, in Python, it is *totally* useless to mark an
> attribute as implementation and add read/write accessors to it. But it's
> obviously hopeless.
>
> > Secondly, I wouldn't code like that. So asking for my input on
> > some code that I believe has no purpose is irrelevant. In your class,
> > Complicated, why are your accessors private?
>
> They are not "private", they are implementation details - in this case,
> support for a property.
>
> > Why is the attribute the
> > accessors are modifying public?
>
> It is not public, it is marked as implementation detail - in this case,
> support for a property.
>
> > In your second class, can data afford
> > to be modified by anyone?
>
> Obviously - just like in the first example.
>
> >Does doing that cause any corruption, bugs,
> > indiscrepancies in the system? You can't just throw code at me, out of
> > context, and tell me to choose which is better. It's just premature.
>
> If you are unable to understand such a simple code then you are totally
> clueless. Since your are obviously not totally clueless, it's just bad
> faith from you. So I'm obviously wasting my time and bandwidth.
>
> (snip)
> >>>>>See! I'm controlling access.
> >>>>
> >>>>You are not controlling *anything*
> >>>>
> >>>>r = Robust()
> >>>>r._Robust__is_active = True
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>*sighs*
> >>>
> >>>You keep coming up with these unrealistic and impractically delusional
> >>>theories
> >>
> >>Pardon ? Which "unrealistic and impractically delusional theories" ?
> >>Please try the code above instead of getting to big words...
> >>
> >
> > Doesn't that fall under the "DO NOT DO THIS AT HOME KIDS" in the FAQ
> > section or somewhere?
>
> Nope. It falls under the "dont do this unless you really need to and
> know exactly what you are doing and accept all possible consequences -
> IOW you're on your own" section.
>
> >>
> >>>Sure Python lets your do that,
> >>>but that's an implementation detail almost all Python developers could
> >>>give a damn about. How many times do I have to tell you I don't care
> >>>for latent semantic implementation details of Python? Anybody who does
> >>>what you just did should be laughed at derisively and ignored.
> >>
> >>Believe it or not, but there are times someone may have a perfectly
> >>valid reason to do so (probably not with your example, but that's
> >>another point).
> >>
> > I have never seen any Python code do that.
>
> I have.
>
> > I will certainly reject code
> > like that in my project.
> > But if people do it without any ill effects,
> > good for them. I don't do it, I don't know any Python developer that
> > does.
>
> Never heard of the sys._getframe() hack ?
>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Whee! And if one sober morning I want to
> >>>>>change the name __is_active to __buffer_is_active, I won't have to hunt
> >>>>>down 27000 lines of code to do it.
> >>>>
> >>>>And what if you want to change 'buffer_is_active' to 'is_active' ?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>But I don't want to. I wanna change implementation not interface.
> >>
> >>Changing implementation from direct attribute access to property doesn't
> >>require changing the interface, so there's no reason to use a property
> >>for simple read/write access. period.
> >>
> >
> >
> > There is. The name issues already afore-mentioned elsewhere.
>
> Lol. The "name issue" you talk about is
> 1/ exactly a case of changing *interface*
> 2/ only due to the fact that you're confusing state with non-callable
> attributes.
>
> >>>>>Also a naive third party won't crash
> >>>>>my system by changing Robust's state arbitrarily.
> >>>>
> >>>>Lol. cf above. And, may I repeat : you're getting the "my/3rd part"
> >>>>stuff the wrong way. If someone uses your code in it's app, then it's
> >>>>*her* system, and *your* code is the '3rd part'. Whether someone wants
> >>>>to do idiotic things with your code that will result in a crash is none
> >>>>of *your* concern. Just like if someone buy a hammer and bangs his head
> >>>>with, it's not the concern of the guy who made the hammer.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>That's just silly. If a third party plugin is crashing your app,
> >>
> >>Not my responsability.
> >>
> >
> >
> > You enjoy pointing fingers, don't you?
>
> Nope. But I refuse to be responsible for someone else's stupidity
> (unless this 'someone else' happens to be my son).
>
> >
> >>>guess
> >>>who's gonna get the emails and bug reports? That's right you!
> >>
> >>And ?
> >>
> > You have to investigate it?
> >
> >
> >>>And that
> >>>is after hours of trying to reproduce the bug on your system
> >>>unsuccessfully
> >>
> >>If the app runed fine and all of a sudden starts to crash, I'll suspect
> >>something specific to the user system.
> >>
> > There you go again pointing fingers. It has to be the stupid idiotic
> > users fault.
>
> Your words. Not mines. As far as I'm concerned, I can accept that some
> change in the user's environment can impact my program - sometimes in
> very very strange ways. I've had a case recently involving Trac, SQLite,
> mod_python and PHP5.
>
> >
> >>>because you don't have the bloody plug-in installed and
> >>>they user doesn't know a random plug-in he downloaded is the root of
> >>>the problem.
> >>
> >>"Hi Mr User... Just a question about your problem : did you change
> >>anything in your system recently ? Like installing a new plugin ?"
> >>
> > Yeah, now you have 20/20 hindsight.
>
> Of course - I cheated. At least with the last question. But FWIW, if my
> app was pluggable and I had a similar case, one of the very first thing
> I'd ask would be the detailed and exhaustive list of installed plugins.
>
> >>>>>Because in the real
> >>>>>world when your program is buggy, you get bug reports, nasty emails
> >>>>>among other forms of ridicule.
> >>>>
> >>>>So you see receiving a bug report as a form of ridicule ?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>Yes, it can be.
> >>>
> >>
> >>I definitively give up trying to understand you.
> >>
> >
> >
> > I guess you haven't got bug reports that make you feel like shit.
>
> No. I don't allow a bug report to "make me feel like shit". I sometimes
> felt really dumb and sorry when I found out how evident the bug was, but
> that's another problem.
>
> (snip)
> >>>My users are not just end users they are also developers.
> >>
> >>Developpers are supposed to know enough to fill in useful bug reports...
> >>and possibly do some prior research on the problem by themselves.
> >>
> > Developers extend your application in ways you hadn't originally
> > anticipated, thus exposing bugs.
>
> I know, I do a lot of work on existing apps so they fit my customers needs.
>
> > And no, it's not the developers fault.
>
> Which developper ? The author of the app, or the one extending it ?
>
> > I know that's where you are going. There are several reasons why this
> > can happen, including me not protecting object's state properly.
>
> If you exposed as part of the interface some highly critical attribute
> then yes, you are responsible. If it's the other developper messing with
> your implementation, then it's by no way your responsability - but it
> may be a sign that your code could need some support for a use case you
> had not anticipated.
>
> (snip)
> >>>
> >>>Your example
> >>
> >>Which one ?
> >>
> >>
> >>>actually requires more code,
> >>>is looks complex and it's
> >>>ugly
> >>
> >>
> >>You mean:
> >>
> >>class Pythonic(object):
> >> def __init__(self):
> >> self._is_active = True
> >>
> >> @apply
> >> def is_active():
> >> def fget(self): return self._is_active
> >> def fset(self): raise SomeException('sorry, read-only')
> >> return property(**locals())
> >>
> >>
> >>
> (snip)
> > Yes, that.
>
> Then you find Python complex and ugly. But what I find surprising is
> that you could make a judgement on "my example" before I wrote it...
>
>
> (snip)
> >>>What book are we talking about again? I made these rules from my
> >>>experience writing programs in Python, not from any book.
> >>
> >>I fail to see how your view of "data = state / methods = behaviour" or
> >>your advice to "make all data attributes private" comes from experience
> >>writing Python code.
> >>
> >
> > Then I can't help you.
>
> That's an understatement.
>
> >>>But for a lot of people over here who claim they've been
> >>>programming for X number of years, some of them certainly do need to
> >>>hit the books again. I don't believe I spent an inordinate amount of
> >>>time explaining state and behavior or the benefits or techniques for
> >>>reducing coupling or why anyone would need accessors, among other
> >>>things.
> >>
> >>Do you really believe you taught me anything about these topics ?
> >>
> >
> >
> > No, but I surprised some of the terms I use confuse you.
>
> The only term that confused me was actually "contaminated".
>
> > Or why you
> > would question why anyone would need to use accessors.
>
> Where did I question this ? Chapter and verse, please.
>
> > And that you
> > consider data hiding and encapsulation harmful and unnecessary.
>
> I consider language-inforced access restriction as harmful and
> unnecessary. And it has very few to do with encapsulation.
>
> > However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
>
> How nice from you. But given the views you expressed about "sound
> software engineering principles" and your understanding of concepts such
> as state, behaviour, coupling and encapsulation, please consider me as
> definitively wasted.
>
> >>>>>Thanks to the people who exposed me to Python's properties.
> >>>>
> >>>>The problem is that you definitively *failed* to understand how to use
> >>>>them (or actually how to *not* use them when not needed).
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>Sure, if it makes you feel better.
> >>
> >>Alas, not. Seeing someone inflicting himself pain because of misbelief
> >>or misunderstanding does not "make me feel better". Too bad you take it
> >>this way.
> >>
> >
> >
> > I feel a lot more pain when I have to investigate bugs that I could
> > have prevented easily if only I had adhered to sound software
> > engineering principles as opposed to drinking philosophical Kool Aid.
>
> Exactly. Here, the "sound software engineering principles" is to pay a
> minimal attention to naming of interface elements, and the
> "philosophical Kool Aid" confusing non-callable attributes with
> implementation detail.
>
> > I'm in tune with most of Python's philosophies. But one needs to know
> > when to make exceptions as opposed to blindly reciting and following
> > ingrained mantras.
>
> Exact once again. Here, the mantra is "state is data is private,
> behaviour is method is public". That may be true for Smalltalk, but not
> for Python.
>
>
> --
> bruno desthuilliers
> python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
> p in '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@')])"
You win!
Bye all, and thanks for your time and insights.
Cheers
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