On Wednesday 06 December 2017 11:33:14 Steve D'Aprano wrote: > On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 04:54 pm, Chris Angelico wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 4:27 PM, km <srikrishnamo...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Remember that you are wasting time of lakhs of python subscribers > >> by asking such dumb questions being tech students. You people can > >> Google and watch movies / songs online and you can't find how to > >> download and install python ? That's ridiculous! > > > > This attack is unwarranted. Please don't set fire to people simply > > because they asked a question like this. > > I'm going to defend KM (srikrishnamohan) -- his comments were not "an > attack", they are a well-deserved criticism of a *tech student* who > apparently made zero effort to find out how to download Python before > asking others to do it for him. > > I'm sorry for the length of this post. It is trivially easy to sink > the boots in and tell KM off for his blunt criticism of the OP's > request. But in the face of this hostile environment (out of the nine > people who responded to this thread, no fewer than three have piled > onto KM to tell him off), it isn't so easy to get through the message > of why we shouldn't always coddle people asking questions like that > asked by the OP, and why KM's response was tough but fair. > > It's not enough to merely shout back "No, you're wrong!", hence the > length of this reply. > > > Its been a while since I've seen anyone here link to "How to ask > questions the smart way": > > http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html > > > and quote this: > > > When you ask your question, display the fact that you have done > these things [try to find an answer] first; this will help > establish that you're not being a lazy sponge and wasting people's > time. > > > (And more importantly: *you might learn something* by trying to solve > your own problem.) > > And yes, I'm aware of the irony of me taking this position only a > couple of posts after I asked the group to run some code for me > without explaining why I couldn't run it myself.[1] > > The difference is, I have many years of answering other people's > questions, I'm well known here, and I have a proven track record of > not being a lazy sponge. But if somebody wants to take me to task for > not explicitly stating why I wasn't running the code myself, I will > preemptively take it in good grace and accept the criticism. Mea > culpa. > > How likely is it that somebody who is tech-savvy enough to sign up and > post to the Python-List mailing list is not savvy enough to have heard > of google or to have thought of search terms "download Python"? > > https://duckduckgo.com/html/?q=download%20python > > We're not talking about a young child, or some other barely computer > literate person, but somebody studying for a Bachelor of Technology in > India. > > Offering criticism is not attacking somebody. Not even tough > criticism. > > And if you are thinking that it is, well, consider the beam in your > own eye before the mote in KM's. You have just "attacked" (criticised) > KM quite harshly, accusing him of making an "unwarranted" attack (I > think it was very warranted), and using a metaphor which has > particular cultural and colonial associations in India and > neighbouring countries which we Westerners should be wary of making > without good cause.[2] > > When somebody mildly breaches social norms, even the norms of a tech > forum, mild shaming is often an effective method of enforcement. I'm > not saying that the OP should be doxxed, his family and employer > harassed, ripped apart on social media, but KM telling him off for > wasting people's time seems fair to me. We can assume that the OP > isn't a two year old. He should know better, and we ought to expect > more from him. Its not a crime if he doesn't, but we don't have to > molly-coddle him either. > > Consider your bible: a soft answer turns away wrath. But the bible > never says that the wrath wasn't justified in the first place. KM is > clearly angry at the OP's behaviour, hence his strong words. We should > balance our concern about driving away newbies like the OP with some > concern about the justified anger at needy, entitled, demanding people > who take, take, take and never give back. "Smart Questions" (above) is > not just good advice, it is also a set of social norms, and the OP > violated them. > > And again, consider your own beam: what you are complaining about KM > doing to the OP, is exactly what you, Ethan and others are attempting > to do to KM. You consider KM's actions to have violated *your* social > norm of "be nice" and consequently you are trying to shame KM into > changing his behaviour to meet those norms, by chastising him and > telling him off for supposedly attacking the OP, for being > condescending, for being hateful. > > Ironically, it appears that both KM and the OP are newbies. Aren't we > supposed to be more welcoming to newbies? > > > You can be far more courteous > > than this, even if you refuse to help. Particularly, the "you > > people" sounds like a blanket statement, which is almost certainly > > not useful to the discussion. > > I think that given both posters appear to be Indian, perhaps there's > some cultural baggage that we outsiders aren't privy too. I might > guess that it could have something to do with the (allegedly) high > incidence of academic dishonesty and cheating amongst India's > students, many students feeling that they are entitled to pass courses > without doing any work or studying. > > http://beta.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-c1-india-cheating-20140416-m- >story.html > > > You (and a few others) have "attacked" (criticised) someone who shows > signs of being concerned about the quality of discussion in this > forum, while encouraging somebody who shows signs of possibly becoming > an entitled, needy, demanding Help Vampire: > > http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/help_vampire.htm > > Now to be fair to the OP, Jyothiswaroop Reddy, may not realise he is > breaking a social norm for a tech group, perhaps due to cluelessness, > inexperience, or a lifetime of entitlement where his every need has > been done for him. I'm not saying he should be shunned. > > But a swift kick up the (virtual) behind is a wake-up call. KM's > comments were tough but fair: Jyothiswaroop *is* wasting people's time > with a simple problem that he should be capable of solving himself, or > at least making an attempt to solve it himself, and it doesn't require > much nous to google for "Download Python" before asking for help. > > In our urge to be inclusive, we forget that it is just basic simple > politeness that before asking strangers for a favour, we should make > an honest attempt to solve the problem ourselves. If you don't, but > still expect others to solve your problems for you, that's a violation > of some pretty deeply embedded cultural norms about social cheating > (taking advantage of others without giving back). Those norms are so > deeply embedded they might even be biological. I can completely > understand KM's apparant anger. > > The bottom line is, I disagree that KM's posts were out of line and > more worthy of chastisement than Jyothiswaroop's post. > > > > > > [1] I cannot compile Python 3.6 or better on any of the computers I > have access to at the moment -- although it's probably time for me to > try again in case those dependency problems have been fixed. > > [2] Given the historical practice of suttee (sati) and the questions > it raises about colonial imperialism[3], as well as the still-current > practice of dowry murder[4] and even more vicious crimes[5] in India, > accusing KM of setting another person on fire (even metaphorically) is > not something I'd do so casually. > > [3] http://www.victorianweb.org/history/empire/india/suttee.html > > [4] https://preview.tinyurl.com/y86vglvm > > [5] https://preview.tinyurl.com/hnaa29w > > > -- > Steve > “Cheer up,” they said, “things could be worse.” So I cheered up, and > sure enough, things got worse.
+100 Steve, spot on IOW. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene> -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
