On Fri, 11 Apr 2014 11:19:22 -0700, Rustom Mody wrote: > On Friday, April 11, 2014 5:04:28 PM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote: [...] > For the rest, Im not sure that you need my help in making a fool of > yourself... Anyway since you are requesting said help, here goes:
Very strong words. >> On Thu, 10 Apr 2014 22:42:14 -0700, Rustom Mody wrote: >> >> >> > People whose familiarity with religion is limited to the >> > Judeo-Christian tradition are inclined to the view (usually implicit) >> > that "being religious" == "belief in God" >> > However there are religions where belief in God is irreligious -- >> >> > Jainism >> >> I think that it will come as rather a surprise to Jains to be told that >> they don't believe in god. In fact, they believe in a multitude of gods >> (not surprising, as Jainism is derived from Hinduism) and believe that >> every soul has the potential to become a god. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Jainism and particularly > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Jainism#Heavenly_Beings - You state that in Jainism, belief in god (which one?) is "irreligious" (i.e. hostile to religion); - I point out that in the case of Jains, belief in many gods is in fact a core part of their religion; - you attempt to refute me by linking to an article which confirms that belief in gods is part of Jainism. And that's supposed to prove that I'm wrong? Perhaps you think that "belief in gods" is ipso facto the same as "worshipping those gods"? That's an awfully naive view, especially for someone who started this discussion by complaining about the naivety of other people's understanding of religion. >> > And others where it is is irrelevant -- Tao, Shinto. [There is the >> > story of a westerner who wen to a shinto temple and said: All this >> > (rites) is fine and beautiful but what's your *philosophy* To which >> > he was told: "Philosophy? We have no philosophy! We dance!"] >> >> A nice story, but the name "Shinto" even means "The Way Of The Gods", >> so claiming that Shinto is not about gods is rubbish. > > http://books.google.co.in/books?id=b- VACc7jcOAC&lpg=PA159&ots=femTbp96rh&dq=shinto%20%22We%20have%20no% 20philosophy%22%20we%20dance&pg=PA159#v=onepage&q=shinto%20%22We%20have% 20no%20philosophy%22%20we%20dance&f=false What's this supposed to prove? It's a nice story. The book you linked to doesn't give any more details than you do, it even states "A story is told". It's an unnamed philosopher, an unnamed priest from an anonymous temple. There is *absolutely nothing* suggesting it ever happened in real life, but even if it did, it certainly doesn't suggest anything about Shinto. If anything, it's about the ignorance of the supposed American philosopher. Did you think I was questioning the existence of the story? I said nothing to suggest you made the story up (although it seems to me that the author you quote probably did). I don't question the existence of the story. I question that the story is meaningful. It seems to me that only somebody *completely ignorant of Shinto* can possible think that Shinto in general has no philosophy or religious meaning. Shinto, as a glorified (literally) folk-religion, may lack the sort of over-arching grand philosophies of (say) the Catholic Church, but I think it is an astonishingly foolish thing to suggest that all they do is dance. Even figuratively. >> > In middle-eastern society women are expected to dress heavier than in >> > the West. A few years ago a girl went to school in France with a >> > scarf and she was penalized. >> >> Citation please. I think this is bogus, although given how obnoxious >> some schools can be I'm not quite prepared to rule it out altogether. I >> think it's far more likely that she was only penalized for wearing full >> head- covering (not just a scarf) after being warned that it was not >> part of the school uniform and therefore not appropriate. > > In spite of Paul pointing out the link (thanks Paul) > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_scarf_controversy_in_France > > you still persist in > >> in this specific case, I stand by my skepticism > > So you think that wikipedia link/article is bogus? That article supports what I stated: the three girls (not one) were not penalized without warning for merely turning up to school with scarves. They were penalized for refusing to remove their hajibs, which were against the school's dress code. -- Steven D'Aprano http://import-that.dreamwidth.org/ -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
