Alf P. Steinbach wrote: > * Steve Holden: >> Alf P. Steinbach wrote: >>> * Michael Sparks: >>> [Due to the appearance of reasoned discussion (it's not practical to >>> read it all!) >> [...] >>>> Therefore to say "in reality the implementation will be passing a >>>> reference or pointer" is invalid. There is after all at least one >>>> implementation that does not rely on such machine oriented language >>>> details. >>> I'm sorry, but see above: in itself it's just yet another a fallacy. >>> >>> And as an argument in a debate with me it's misrepresenting. >>> >> I see we are still all out of step with you. > > Why did you snip the short argument? > Because it's irrelevant and fallacious. > >> If it's a fallacy then I'd >> like to see a reasoned logical explanation of its fallaciousness. > > Oh, you snipped it so that you didn't have to present it to readers. > > That's dishonest, Steve Holden. > > Requoting: > > <quote> >> Now let's move to the implementation aspects. >> >> Python as a language is implemented in many languages. One of these >> is C. There are compilers to C (pypy), C++ (shedskin), for the JVM >> (Jython) and .net (Ironpython). >> >> There is also an executable operation semantics for python, >> which can be found here: >> >> > http://gideon.smdng.nl/2009/01/an-executable-operational-semantics-for-python/ > >> >> This set of operational semantics is written in Haskell. >> >> Haskell is a strictly pure, lazily evaluated language. It >> therefore has no pointers or references, just values and names. >> The implementation therefore cannot be in terms of references >> and pointers. > > At this point consider whether it's possible to implement Pascal in > Haskell. > > If it is possible, then you have a problem wrt. drawing conclusions > about pointers in Pascal, uh oh, they apparently can't exist. > > But if it is not possible to implement Pascal in Haskell, then Haskell > must be some etremely limited special-purpose language, not Turing > complete -- is that acceptable to you? > <quote> > This, if it says anything at all, appears to say that any Turing-complete language has pointers in it, which is an absurdity. > >> As far as I can see, if someone says "implementing Python implies the >> use of pointers" as you appear to be doing, then Michael's argument >> neatly demolishes that argument by providing a counter-example: there is >> an implementation of Python that does not use pointers. > > That's meaningless. > > But then so is maintaining that Python doesn't have references. > > And so is your argument applied to Pascal, just to mention that again. > *You* brought Pascal into this, not me. > >> You, however, dismiss this as a fallacy, and suggests it somehow >> misrepresents you. And yet you wonder why people call your behavior (not >> you) paranoid. > > On top of the multiple fallacies, dubious snipping of arguments, > statements that such arguments have not been presented (just after > snipping them), and general misleading insinuations and > misrepresentation, ad yet another bit of personal attack. > > Do you understand what that may say to readers about you, Steve Holden? > I'm happy to let readers draw their own conclusions about us both.
> Apparently it's all to defend an indefensible, idiotic position. But I > think you're doing it at least partially for the fun of harassing someone. > Not at all. You have accused me of bullying behavior, but in truth you are the bully, and we know what happens when you give in to bullies, don't we? > >> [...] >>>> I sincerely hope that my reply does not offend or inflame you, since >>>> that is not the intent. I do hope it educates you and puts >>>> into context the responses you have gained from others. >>>> >>>> After all, one simply shouting in a corner saying "YOU'RE ALL >>>> WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. I'M RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT", when one does not to >>>> understand what one is talking about does not tend to engender warm >>>> fluffy feelings or sentiments of authority towards such an >>>> individual. Be it me, you, or anyone else. >>>> >>>> At the moment, you appear to me to be engaging in such a behaviour. >>>> Now you don't know from Jack and probably don't care about my >>>> viewpoint, but I would really appreciate it if you would try not to >>>> be inflammatory in your response to this. (Since you do appear to >>>> also have a need to have the last word) >>>> >>>> Hoping this was useful on some level, >>> Yes. >>> >>> I elected to respond to just /one/ of the many arguments you >>> presented. >>> >>> The other arguments, about why there are no references in Python, >>> shared, however, the basic property of being logical fallacies >>> packaged in kilometers of rambling text. >>> >> And you can say this without, by your own admission, even reading it. > > No, you can not quote any place I have said that I haven't read his > article. I did read most of it. So you are yet again within the span of > one posted article presenting untrue information that you know is not true. > I repeat the quote from you which you can read at the top of this post: >>> [Due to the appearance of reasoned discussion (it's not practical to >>> read it all!) >> [...] So now you say you read "most" of it. Even this statement is an admission that there are parts you did not, and yet somehow *I* am the liar? We are moving from the bizarre to the delusional here. > >> It >> makes me wonder why we have paid you the compliment of engaging you in >> debate, > > Gosh, I don't know. You must be stupid to do that. Yes? > Apparently. > >> since this is the most transparent evidence to date that what >> comes back will be unrelated to the arguments presented. > > That is untrue, Steve Holden, and since you can't quote that "evidence", > since you evidently /have/ read my short article which you're responding > to, knowing exactly what to snip, you know that what you're saying is > untrue. I think this is your third lie in one posting. But who would > care to count. > Who indeed? > > Cheers & hth., > That signature surely has to be irony. Steve -- Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 PyCon is coming! Atlanta, Feb 2010 http://us.pycon.org/ Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ UPCOMING EVENTS: http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
