On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 3:54 PM, r0g <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Scott David Daniels wrote:
>> r0g wrote:
>>> John Machin wrote:
>>>> .... You mention "variables of a class" but you then proceed to poke
>>>> at an instance of the class....
>>>> Check out setattr (and getattr) in the docs.
>>> The former i.e. the variables of an instance of a class. Thanks :-)
>>
>> Careful here. Your wording seems to indicate you misunderstand the
>> Python model. The instance doesn't have variables (and your class built
>> nothing that could be called an instance variable). Think of the
>> attributes of an instance (or a class) as "values attached to (or
>> associated with) the instance." If you don't you are setting yourself
>> up to discover a pile of bugs that you don't understand.
>>
>> --Scott David Daniels
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> OK now I'm confused, let me explain how I see things at the moment and
> you can correct me...
>
> A class is like a template which combines a complex data type (made from
> a combination of other data types) and the methods that operate on that
> data type.
>
> You generally don't work with classes directly but you make instances of
> them, each instance has it's own internal state and methods, initially
> these are the same as the templates but can be changed or overridden
> without affecting the state of any other instances you might have.
>
> While the perceived wisdom is that you should encapsulate all the
> methods you need to modify your classes' state within the class itself
> Python does (for better or worse) permit you to reach inside a class and
> futz with it's state directly from outside.
>
> The bits of an instance's state one might futz with (from within or
> without) i.e. the primitives that make up the complex object the class
> is a representation of, I think of as it's variables.
>
> It would seem from this setattr function that the proper term for these
> is 'attributes'. That for many years I have considered pretty much any
> named thing that may vary a 'variable' might be at the root of the
> problem here as it's a very un-specific term...
>
> So I gather you are saying that the fragments of state within a class
Within an instance
> are so distinct from ordinary common or garden variables that it is
> incorrect to think of them, or describe them, as variables, much like
> quarks should not really be regarded as distinct particles, and they
> should only be thought of and described as 'attributes' to avoid confusion?
>
> Is this correct enough for me to avoid the aforementioned bug pile?
Yes, I think so.
>
> Also then, what _is_ an "instance variable" ?
Metasyntatic variables:
C - some class
x - some instance
y - the "word" after the dot in the expression: x.y
My working definitions based on my knowledge of Python:
Attribute - y is an attribute of x. Includes instance variables,
properties, and dynamically generated attributes. Since x.y really
ends up doing x.__getattribute__("y") behind the scenes, overriding
__getattribute__ lets you make attribute lookup more dynamic and have
it do interesting things. For example, you could write a class
overriding __getattribute__ so that x.y (for any valid Python name y)
opened a file with the name y and returned a file object for this file
(i.e. x.z returns file("z","w"), x.q returns file("q","w"), etc
without enumerating "q", "z", etc anywhere in the class).
Instance variable - In `x.y`, y is an instance variable of x if it's
stored in x.__dict__ or x.__slots__, it's not a method of x (though it
can be a function), and it's not a property.
Property - y is a property if x.y causes a method call and returns the
result of said method call. Basically, x.y becomes equivalent to x.z()
if y is a property. Properties can also allow `x.y = a` to be
equivalent to `x.z(a)` and `del x.y` to be equivalent to `x.z()`.
Properties are created using the built-in function property()
Class variable - Unless you're using metaclasses, in C.y, y is always
a class variable of C. Thus, methods are technically also class
variables. Using metaclasses, C is both a class itself and an instance
of another class D, in which case the definition of "instance
variable" (interpreted with regards to C being an instance of D)
applies to whether y is a class variable of C or not.
Class method - Created using the built-in function classmethod()
Essentially, attribute lookup is very dynamic in Python, which
complicates things a good bit, so the only thing we know for sure
about x.y is that y is an attribute of x.
Cheers,
Chris
--
Follow the path of the Iguana...
http://rebertia.com
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Roger.
>
> Q: How many pedants does it take to change a lightbulb?
> A: Well actually you mean "replace" a lightbulb.
> Q: Have you ever kissed a girl?
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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