[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
>
>>Andrew Reilly wrote:
>>
>>
>>> That all looks like data.
>>
>>No, not reverse, the part you did not understand. I do not mean what the
>>code was doing, I meant that it was code.
>>
>
>
> Code is data is code
I was hoping no one would make that mistake. :) macros are all about
code is data, but code is not data in Python* so the two words code and
data serve to differentiate them for Pythonistas.
* Taking questions after a keynote to ILC200? where he reiterated that
Python was the same as Lisp for all intents and purposes:
Norvig: "Yes, John?"
McCarthy: "Is code also data in Python?"
Norvig: "No."
End of exchange. :)
>- even in Python:
This could be tougher than I thought.
>
> skills_table = [
> {
> "title": "Absolute Value",
> "annotations": ["Bleah bleah", "ho hum", "etc..."],
> "hints": ["and so on", "etc..."],
> "reverse" : (lambda x: whatever(x))
That does not demonstrate that code is data, that demonstrates that a
lambda is a first-class object (and, yes, Python's lambda is lame).
You will know you have code as data when you can write Python code that
takes apart "whatever(x)" and produces "oh-now-I-get-it(y)". As part of
the language, such that Python applies your transforming code for you
whenever it sees whatever. (Hell, even C has a preprocessor.)
> },
> {
> "title": "Square Root",
> "annotations": ["Bleah bleah", "ho hum", "etc..."],
> "hints": ["and so on", "etc..."],
> "reverse" : (lambda x: someother(x))
> },
> # etc...
> ]
>
> Of course those lambdas are crippled in Python (and not really
> necessary in this bogus example)... But that's without trying to be
> clever:
>
> class AbsoluteValue:
> title="Absolute Value"
> annotations=["Some list", "goes here"]
> @classmethod
> def reverse(cls, *args):
> # I didn't understand what your code was doing
yeah, and god forbid you should ask. :) this is the crux of the matter!
Actually, it is kinda cool that you and Greg are semi-identifying the
crux by saying "this is the only bit I do not get, I'll skip this, move
on, nothing to see here".
> pass
> defskill(AbsoluteValue)
>
> That would be a reasonable place for a "pie decorator" on a class, but
> I guess that's not allowed.
Hmmm. Actually, that is the whole point, all of Python is allowed.
decorators were used in PyCells, but I never got much of an idea what
they did. Is there a moral equivalent of a macroexpansion for decorators
so you can show the before and after?
> I doubt this second example would be
> considered "Pythonic" in any case...
exactly what we are looking for in this cultural exchange: how would
Python handle what I am doing with macros in the reverse functions? Make
it as slick and programmer-friendly (cuz I may get to a hundred of these
before I am done with Algebra I) as possible. When all the Pythonistas
proclaim it optimal, then we compare and contrast.
This, btw, is the Tilton Test for language comparison: Not measurements
of programmer effort, rather examination of perfect equivalent code.
PyCells vs Cells would be an amazing case, because that is some hairy
functionality.
>>Not the code. In reverse.
>>
> Why not?
Is, too! (ie, I am kinda looking for a specific question that conveys
understanding of the use case.)
> Python has plenty of other flaws that I can't happily work around, and
> I do think Lisp is more flexible. However, I think your example is
> readable enough with a data driven algorithm in most any popular
> language. All of the data is visible to the reverse(...) method.
> Maybe I missed something in your example, but I think you aren't trying
> hard enough. :-)
Precisely. I am not trying at all. I am coding between visits to Usenet.
This use case just popped up and was pretty simple (at first, before I
got to the reverse function) so I dropped it off. This is a wild macro,
not farm-bred, deliberately crafted to embarrass macro. A real live
natural comes up all the time working wouldn't want to code without it
macro. I could have searched my code base to find more brutal cases, but
this is short and sweet and unforced and uncontrived and wheres my
thesaurus?
ken
--
Algebra: http://www.tilton-technology.com/LispNycAlgebra1.htm
"Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty-five
years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally
won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
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