At 08:14 PM 1/22/2007 -0500, Ed Leafe wrote: ... > I said that to illustrate the dishonesty of re-defining things on >the fly to fit your conclusion. You want to believe that all >Christians are good, so faced with an obviously evil Christian, your >response is to declare that he isn't a "real" Christian. I tried to ...
No no no. I was not trying to say or imply that all Christians are good. In fact, I think I made that very clear later on. It seemed to me someone (Richardo?) was trying to paint Christianity as an 'evil' religion by inference to Hitler during the discussion. As I pointed out then, Hitler did not behave like a Christian. So while I don't know what was truly in his heart, the historical evidence implies that he was not a Christian. But again, that final judgement is only based on what I observe (read in history books, discussions, etc). I cannot deny the possibility that Hitler was indeed a Christian because the only ones that know that for sure are Hitler and God. ... > > he is an atheist? At some point you have to create a set of > > definitions to explain the belief system. If someone puts a label on > themselves > > but then violates the belief system of that label it would be reasonable, > > IMO, to say that they actually are not what they claim to be. > > I'd say he is a hypocrite. It would be perfectly reasonable to say >that his actions do not reflect his words. > > But let's take something closer to the discussion: someone who is >brought up in a religion; who is raised to believe in the tenets of >that religion, and who actively practices that religion. You would be >comfortable saying that he is a member of that religion, I assume. >But once he's grown, he is swayed by other external pressures and >events to do things that we would consider evil. Is he a sinner, in >need of forgiveness? Or is he automatically disqualified from being >considered part of that religion once he stops observing its rules? > > I knew several "Sopranos"-type people growing up in New Jersey. > They >were good Catholics; attended church every week; were at all church >functions; had their babies baptized in those churches; etc. Yet we >all knew what they did to make their money. Are they Catholics? To be brief I would say no, they are not Catholic. In your terms, you'd call them hypocrites. Again, one person can't know for sure what is in another's heart. But if a called to make a judgement, you would have to go on what is observed (realizing that such a judgement could not be 100% certain). This sort of gets back to where we differed about people's actions and how they relate to religion. In my understanding of Christianity, your 'works' have absolutely no chance of obtaining salvation for you. What is important is what is in your "heart". If you accept you're a sinner, and that God's Grace is what saves you, that is where salvation comes from. The thing is, once you accept that and make it part of you, "good works" become a natural outpouring of your gratitude. I've met some people who claim to be Christians (and so have others on this list) but they behave horribly to others just because of differences of opinion. That's not the Christian way. Every Christian has ups and downs in their life, but if they constantly behave contrary to Christian teachings then my judgement tells me they may not be what they claim. Well, I've gone on and on about behavior and judging, etc. so I better clarify something. I don't go around 'judging' whether people are Christian or not. I don't pay a lot of attention to that in general - keeping myself on the Chrisitian walk is plenty challenge enough. I only try to contribute and get involved Christianity itself gets attacked. -Charlie _______________________________________________ Post Messages to: [email protected] Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
