Me ? I don’t follow you, I am a member of this community since 2011 with active contributions to documentation, tutorials , promotion and improvement of Pharo.
Much less now days because I am busy but still around offering advice and answers in mailing list and managing the Discord server. Does not that count as action ? On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 at 12:16, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.s...@gmail.com> wrote: > My question is then the following: > How do you help? > There is no little action. Any action is an action. > And all together we get stronger. Do not expect everything from us. > Join and have fun. > > Stef > > On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Dimitris Chloupis > <kilon.al...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Just to clarify, you will never read from me that Python or Pharo is > > superior or what else. > > > > Superior and better is highly subjective and depends obviously on your > needs > > and specific problem you want to solve. > > > > What I am saying , is yes I am perfectly ok and even encourage Pharo > > offering similar functionality we come to expect from other IDEs, > languages, > > third party tools etc . There is definetly a lot of value in offering > > something that is easier to learn and an easier way of doing things. The > > essense of computers is to automate stuff. But like any other language, > IDE, > > third party tool etc Pharo attracts a specific kind of people. > > > > Python attracts people that want the easiest learning curve possible > > C attracts people who want the highest performance code possible > > Pharo attracts people who want a highest productivity workflow with full > > customisability. > > > > Which one is best ? Hmm.... highly debatable, which is why language wars > end > > to up nowhere. > > > > Its not that Pharo cannot be fast, or easy to learn, its not that C > cannot > > be easy to learn and fully customisable and highly productive and its not > > that Python cannot be top performance or highly productive and full > > customisable. But each one has its own priorities and life is all about > > priorities. > > > > On the matter of application deployment to offer you some recommendations > > > > What you can do > > 1) Rename the executable, which basically contains the VM > > 2) Change the icon of the executable > > 3) Create a startup script , if you want to have some kind of default > > behavior when the user first opens Pharo or each time it opens it > > 4) Use attached morphs to world, these morphs cannot be resized, take the > > entire space of pharo window and block any interaction with the Pharo > ide. > > When you dont not want your user to access your application internals. > > 5) Morphic offers themes you can use to add a special touch to your > > interface even making it look more native > > 6) There is no need for an installer but if you want to create one > because > > of dependencies that are shared among application you can use any third > > party tool that can be used for any other language , nothing special here > > 7) You can offer automatic updates via git, Metacello gives a lot of > access > > to git functionality so you can connect to your git repo , check the > latest > > version and redowload the source in the background using a fork process > > 8) you can use makefiles with Pharo for generating diffirent builds for > your > > application, again you can use pharo startup scripts to automatically > > install code to a freshly build image. > > 9) The help tool can be used as internal documentation of your image > > 10) If you want a cheap way to crate a multi core application, you can > > trigger multiple instances of pharo and let them talk with each other via > > sockets. Each istance will be assigned by OS to a separate core > > 11) If you must absolutely have a native interface run pharo without its > ui > > (this happens with the use of pharo.exe instead of pharo-ui.exe ) and use > > the UFFI to generate your interface using the the native interface of > your > > OS. This of course will make your application non cross platform but is > > still a popular choice for mosr desktop applications > > 12) Its also possible use HTML/JS as GUI for Pharo, again you can use a > web > > engine, like WebKit and UFFI > > 13) Ask questions here for anything, never hesitate > > 14) If all fails you can always use Pharo together with other languages, > > again using sockets, or shared memory, or pipes, Pharo gives you full > access > > to your OS and the OS offer many ways for communication between process / > > applications / executables. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 11:09 AM Hans N Beck > > <hnb...@educational-concepts.biz> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Stef, > >> > >> sure :) > >> > >> But just before let me comment the other posts: yes you’re right. Pharo > >> and Smalltalk follows a different philosophy and therefore some common > terms > >> like „app“ and „ide“ doesn’t make sense or have to be reinterpreted. > >> > >> You can always say: look, I have a super cool concept, dive In but you > >> have to forget every thing else. > >> OR: > >> I offer you a new concept, look how it can help you to solve daily > >> tasks and getting jobs done. > >> > >> Both perspectives have value to me. And I don’t say Pharo should > priories > >> the one or other. But with my post, I’m taking the perspective of I > need a > >> tool to solve problems, in my given environment, my colleagues, my > >> customers, my IT infrastructure, my constraints. > >> > >> Pharo is well in being the superior new concept. We know that. All what > I > >> want give you, the Pharo experts the feedback that I’m very happy them > that > >> Pharo is on the way for having value for the other perspective, a tool > for > >> solving problems in daily work. > >> > >> Not more not less. > >> > >> Cheers > >> > >> Hans > >> > >> > >> > Am 23.11.2017 um 09:54 schrieb Stephane Ducasse > >> > <stepharo.s...@gmail.com>: > >> > > >> > Hi hans > >> > > >> > Thank you for this analysis. > >> > Now do you want me to state a question? > >> > > >> > Stef > >> > > >> > On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Hans N Beck > >> > <hnb...@educational-concepts.biz> wrote: > >> >> Hi, > >> >> > >> >> Shiny for the R language is a very useful technique to create > >> >> responsive applications based on Web technologies - with all the > advantage > >> >> the big ecosystem of JS libraries offers. > >> >> With Shiny in mind, I’m working with Teapot on Pharo. Dashboard like > >> >> use interface with Processing (exactly: p5.js) and other things is > in mind. > >> >> From my job, I do a similiar thing. But because of our IT policy, I > >> >> have to work with Python (using Tornado server and Dash) and SignalR > for > >> >> Microsoft .Net (exactly: ASP.net) > >> >> > >> >> So I can compare. And if I remember the work with Pharo many years > ago, > >> >> I can state the following: > >> >> > >> >> - The Microsoft Visual Studio offers a lot. It has many functions, > >> >> assistants, components and libraries and a huge bunch of > documentation which > >> >> support to concentrate on the problem. Details are hidden, and even > >> >> deployment is a matter of minutes. But this professionallity has the > >> >> downsize of complexity, and to understand whats going on is not > always easy. > >> >> But if you manage this complexity you can get professional apps in a > >> >> reasonable time. > >> >> > >> >> - Python is flexible and dynamic. I use the Anaconda distribution > with > >> >> Spyder which has good support for interactivity and debugging. Many > >> >> libraries of good quality are available in the python world, you can > tackle > >> >> any problem. Also here: support professional software development > in good > >> >> time is given. A little bit more than Microsoft, the Python things > are more > >> >> understandable and more lightweight. > >> >> > >> >> Pharo, in its incarnation today (6.1) comes very near to this. Also > >> >> Pharo has many libraries, a good to use „IDE“ and professional tools > for > >> >> debugging and profiling. BUT: Pharo is far more transparent. The > >> >> interactivity and the availability of every sourcecode in > combination with > >> >> the debugging capabilities inherent to Smalltalk are helping to > understand > >> >> every thing. And Pharos today documentation address now relevant but > not to > >> >> complicated problems, cover all important tools and libraries and > supports > >> >> starting at beginner level. Pharo has lost the nature of a expert or > nerd > >> >> secret magic wizard tool. > >> >> > >> >> In this direct comparison, I had some wishes for the future of Pharo: > >> >> > >> >> - Deployment: it should be possible to deploy a „single click“ > >> >> application, independet if native GUI or Web App or Shiny like > >> >> - More standard solutions: many libraries have examples, but they are > >> >> sometimes to trivial or just irrelevant for daily practice > >> >> - More product oriented: libraries should have more wizzards or > >> >> application pattern. Imaginary example: for Teapot or Seaside would > it be > >> >> fine if there were some code generator for a 4 Tile dashboard app, > or a data > >> >> viz app, themes like in hugo or bootstrap. I may be wrong, but the > nature of > >> >> many libraries or tools is „make anything possible“ instread of „I > help you > >> >> to write your product“. Do you understand what I want to say ? > >> >> > >> >> Anyway. I can state: Phare IS on the right way. It is. Much much > >> >> progress the last years. Thank you all ! And if it becomes more and > more a > >> >> product for professionals (in industry), the future will be top ! > And this > >> >> doesnet mean to give up the computer science part. Pharo is cool to > try > >> >> concepts and ideas. So Pharo has BOTH sides, which does it make > great. > >> >> > >> >> Cheers > >> >> > >> >> Hans > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >
