That's definetly not a wrong view point, but neither is python's , its all about context. Who you are ? What you want do ? What live coding means to you ? How you want to use it ? How much you want to use it? etc
If you want to do Pharo coding the pharo way , then Pharo is your No1 choice, but if you want to Pharo coding the python way , Python is your No1 choice and etc. Thus I never pick sides in language wars , I am participating merely to find things I do not know. Like I just found about become in the VM list, though I still wait for enumarion of classes and reified frame stacks to be explained as well. I am here to learn as much I am here to teach. Well ok , more likely to learn :D For example messages vs method calls. What happens if method calls are executing by reference, does that make them cross message territory?. Meaning you use a name to hide the reference to an object of a method. You change the reference to the method but without changing the name of the call. Or what happens when you extend the MethodObject to cross message territory, is this still "bastardised OOP" or Alan's Keay great regret of naming it "OOP" ? OR is it smalltalkish OOP in python , or is it something more ? Those question do fascinate me.Languages are so fluid, its like clay in our hands. We live in very exciting times. On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 11:08 AM Nicolai Hess <nicolaih...@gmail.com> wrote: > 2017-10-12 9:28 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.al...@gmail.com>: > >> >> >> >>> This is what Smalltalk gives you for free. >>> >> Sorrry for being rude but I wll use the two usually heavily annoying >> word, at least for me :D >> >> It depends >> >> See there is a problem for Python here. Ideology. >> >> The zen of python has been both a joke a serious mantra in the python >> world . Its a joke because its obviously oversimplify decision making in >> such a complex subject as language designe but is serious because it >> clearly illustrates the philosophy of its creator, Guido van Rossum. >> >> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/ >> >> Guido is not any less of a rock star to Pythoners than Alan Kay is for >> Smalltalkers. The zen has become so popular that is even included in python >> implementation and can be fetched as the link says using the "import this" >> in any implementation of Python. It's the very sould of python as messages >> and objects are the very soul of Smalltalk. >> >> So the problem here is that a live coding enviroment brakes the second >> rule. "explicit is better than implicit". Because live coding in Pharo and >> Smaltalk is about replacing old instances with new while keeping the state >> it non the less an implicit behavior and especially become is a no go >> scenario for python because not only replaces references to an object it >> also breaks the references to the other object. Of course the old object is >> garbage collected and RIP. Python follows this rule very strictly. >> >> Thus means that not only that Python will not offer a live coding >> enviroment in the future as the basis of its implementation . It means it >> does not want to. It may offer it as part of its extensive library. >> >> That also leads us to the inescapable conclusion that nothing comes free, >> everything has a cost. Because there will be scenarios you dont want to >> lose your old instances or not affect them at all and instead affect only >> the classes or maybe you dont even want to do that and want to do something >> else. >> > > > Hm, we have our own Pharo Zen, which includes a > Explicit is better than implicit. > So we are violating our own (zen)rules :) > > in my point of view, live or interactive coding has not much to do with > explicit or implicit program code. > >
