Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants

[btc]

Bahman Movaqar wrote: On 2013-06-02 07:26, b...@openinworld.com wrote: Bahman Movaqar wrote: On 2013-06-01 10:40, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: Hi guys I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that the quality of our community is in general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult. So what do you think? I would use the association in a much clearer way. I'd like to mention a few facts: 1. I used to think Smalltalk is dead. 2. I used to think Smalltalk, even if not dead, is only being used in universities. 3. I used to think Smalltalk world is far behind the modern web aspects/framework/technologies. It's been less than a week that I started to give Smalltalk (Pharo) a try -and to be honest I chose to do so just to see what is Seaside. And to my utmost surprise all of the above assumptions turned out to be moronic per-assumptions (though hugely popular). I come from the Java world which I'd say is the richest and most evolving ecosystem for web development. But I was shocked by design, quality, simplicity, cleanness and feature-set of Seaside. And if you ask me nothing matches it even in the wide range of Java web frameworks. I believe, Seaside is a sample of what Smalltalk world has to offer (correct me if I'm wrong) and it's a real pitty that frustrated developers/companies using Java or .NET don't know about such a thing. PS: I have some general suggestions but, honestly, I thought I'd hold them as I'm not a pro Smalltalk'er :-) Thanks for your comments Bahman. The opinions and suggestions of newcomers are hugely important, since that is the market we need to sell into. While your ideas might not align completely with the direction Pharo wants to take, by the time your are a Pro-Smalltalk'er you might forget your perspective today. So it is good to share, and this is the forum for it. Thanks Ben. DISCLAIMER: ALL OF THE FOLLOWINGS ARE JUST MY PERSONAL OPINIONS. ** Smalltalkhub is a very good idea and it should be further developed and promoted. It's a place (with a slick *modern* looks) where people like me can see that there are lots of people using Smalltalk for serious business. ** A very good way to promote a mature and well thought-out language like Smalltalk/Pharo is to something serious with it and let people know about it. Honestly, I'd write a business application, open source it and try to promote it on the net. Many companies are coding in Java because the main software they implement is written in Java. As an example, I have to do business in Java because the ERP for which I offer services is written in Java. And I know quite a lot of people/companies sticking to Java/.NET for the same reason. I have had similar thoughts that many people are first drawn to an application, and then end up in its development language by default.  My thought was based around a non-critical application like a mind-map tool (similar to Freemind).  Something non-critical makes it easier for the techies to slip it in the back door without management getting involved.  However an open source ERP like Compiere would be fantastic.  The trouble would be attracting a domain expert to implement it ;)  Perhaps one way to go would finding an existing database driven open source ERP system that doesn't have a web interface, and gradually bolt on a web interface using Seaside. ** The name "Smalltalk" was a marketing mistake IMHO, just like Squeak (sorry Squeak folks!) I guess the marketing outlook was different in the 1970s when Smalltalk was first developed :) I remember I downloaded Squeak 4-5 years back being just curious about Smalltalk. I ran it and the first thing I saw was a mouse as the background of the environment. It may sound stupid but, honestly, that seriously hurt my curiosity. Pharo is much better in terms of looks (I don't know about the internals). These things, though very unimportant or even fun for the existing Smalltalk community, have great effect on newcomers. What was it that first caught your attention about Seaside? 1. Simplicity ============== I almost knew no Smalltalk, let alone Seaside. Following only the first 6 chapters of Seaside Tutorial[1] and taking a very quick glance at the next 3 chapters I was already coding! This is *not* something one may get in Java world: assuming that one already knows Java *well*, she has to read twice as much as tutorials and still without the help of an IDE to automate all the boilerplate she's completely helpless. 2. Design ========== AFAIK component-oriented design is the hottest trend in the web framework design and Seaside has got very well. In Java world, despite numerous -I mean it- web frameworks, there are only 2-3 ones that have been designed this way, namely GWT, ZK and Wicket. Interestingly I am reminded of a colleague once advising me on general sales psychology...  That the typical person is wired to get defensive when you are selling "too many" advantages, since the more it looks like their current methods are poor, the more they defend themselves.  What actually works best is having just ONE thing that is better, and let that lead their interest.  Perhaps that is it. 3. Quality =========== The quality of the design is outstanding. The idea of components calling each other, i.e. `call:', and the notion of tasks makes web development a lot easier. Not that it's not possible to do so in other web frameworks but it's not as easy and straight-forward. And data binding as easy as using `on:of:' is just a breeze from heavens! 4. Cleanness ============= To me Seaside looks like a no nonsense web framework. No XML/boilerplate configuration and just enough of client/server side control over the code makes it one of the *few* good ones. Again, I being able to code after a few chapters of *tutorial* clearly speaks about cleanness. 5. Feature set =============== Component-based architecture, encapsulation of the Script from Hell (_javascript_), no setup, halos, that /creepy/ code modification from within the browser, ... Heck, I'm already drooling :-) 6. Light-weight ================ In Java world, unless you're one of those few tough know-it-all gurus, you *cannot* easily develop a web application on a machine with less than 2GB of RAM. Heck my Pharo image running Seaside in development mode and all the windows open inside Pharo has cost me just ~80MB RAM! Unbelievable! That ram usage is very interesting to know. So what we really need to do is stake out a few Java conferences... nominally presenting a Java re-engineering tool but actually demonstrating how to put metrics up on a web interface through Seaside and people going.... you can do That!?  Have multiple images running off a single Mac-mini so lots of the audience can get in and have a go themselves. cheers -ben [1] http://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/seaside