Yes, the manual does say that but it's really trying to stop you using anything less than 64kbps as a floor. Personally, I wouldn't want music to go below 128kbps so that's my floor.
Kevin E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "PC audio discussion list. " <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 8:20 PM Subject: Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats > Hi Kevin. But then, isn't the manual saying that in order to avoid bad > choices, we should use the 64 kbps setting with vbr? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kevin Lloyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "PC audio discussion list. " <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org> > Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 2:27 PM > Subject: Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats > > > >I think you've just about summed it up there Daniel. > > > > I wouldn't use a floor of less than 128kbps for music but here's the info > > from the manual explaining the differences: > > Bitrate Options: > > > > > > > > > > There are three types of bitrate options that you can specify for each the > > encoder (although some encoders may not allow any options). > > > > 1) Constant Bitrate (CBR) > > > > This is the default encoding mode, and also the most basic. In this mode, > > the bitrate will be the same throughout the whole file. So, a second of > > audio from one part of the file takes just as much disk space as a second > > from any other part of that file -- regardless of whether either part is > > silence, acoustically simple, or quite complex. This means that you are > > likely to hear distortion more in the complex parts than in the simple > > parts. The advantage of CBR formats is that even older players understand > > them, and that you can reliably predict the file size from the duration of > > the sound (or vice versa). > > > > > > 2) Average Bitrate (ABR) > > > > In this mode, you tell the encoder to aim for an average bitrate that you > > specify, skimping on the simpler parts of the music, and using higher > > bitrates for the parts of your music that are more complex. The result > > will > > be of higher quality than you'd get in a CBR encoded file of the same > > size. > > This mode is highly recommended over CBR. This encoding mode is similar to > > VBR. > > > > 3) Variable bitrate (VBR) > > > > In this mode, you say what level of quality you want in the output file, > > and > > the encoder compresses each second as best it can to get just that level > > of > > quality -- using less information to represent simpler parts of the song, > > and more information to represent the more complex parts. However, this > > mode > > relies heavily on the encoder's model of how you perceive quality, and > > could > > lead to a few "bad choices" in the encoding process. If possible, you may > > want to specify a minimum bitrate (e.g., 64 Kbps) to avoid those potential > > errors. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kevin > > E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Yardbird" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "PC audio discussion list. " <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org> > > Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 3:25 PM > > Subject: Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats > > > > > >> Just one thing, an example of the confusing nature of the manual. I > > reread > >> that section a couple of times, and it doesn't seem to be actually > >> recommending setting a floor of 64. There's some unspoken implication > > that > >> some user may neglect to set any floor (minimum rate) at all. It's not > >> explain why so low a rate as 64 would be useful or, more to what seems to > >> bee their point, necessary for heading off some sort of problem. And, > >> again, it seems to be recommend average bit rate, but if you read that > > over > >> a couple of time, at least this is my impression, they're implying that > >> variable bit rate, intelligently used, is the highest-quality approach. > > But > >> all they say is that variable bit rate is best, then imply without > >> explaining that it's perhaps too sophisticated for some users and that > > it's > >> easy to make a fatal mistake with it. I forget the exact wording, but > > it's > >> simply not that coherent. > >> > >> My impression at this point is that Kevin's explanations have been a lot > >> more complete and a lot more coherent, and that's allowed me to figure > >> out > >> things that it seems the manual thinks it's saying but actually isn't. > >> > >> In other words, I think it's saying "Average bit rate is a more refined > >> method than the stable bit rate, just so you remember not to set it so as > > to > >> allow the bit rate to drop too low for any fidelity at all. But if > >> you're > >> careful, we'd actually tell you to use variable bit rate. > >> lone m > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Gary Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> To: "PC audio discussion list. " <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org> > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 12:37 PM > >> Subject: Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats > >> > >> > >> The manual states that the floor should be at 64 kbps. It sounds to me > > like > >> it suggests going to vbr-abr. I'm trying to learn this stuff too. I'm > > also > >> wondering what advantage there is to using the default vbr settings is. > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Yardbird" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> To: "PC audio discussion list. " <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org> > >> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 4:07 PM > >> Subject: Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats > >> > >> > >> > Thanks for explaining this. One more question about settings: > >> > > >> > I've learned from you how to make variable bit rate settings. Now, if > >> > I > >> > wish to try the average bit rate approach described in the manual, I > >> > wonder > >> > if I've discovered the way to set it for that. There isn't any button > > or > >> > anything for doing this, so I poked around in the combo box list of > >> > various > >> > variable bit rate types. First you have Disabled, then you have the > >> > default > >> > one, I guess that's what you're expected to use normally. > >> > > >> > Then you have a couple of variations whose names I don't understand. > > And > >> > then, last on the list, is an option written as "VBR -ABR!" could this > > be > >> > the choice that sets the encoder to use an average bit rate, as a > > sub-type > >> > of "variable bit rate?" Does anyone know? > >> > > >> > this program, though the price is right and the operation fairly simple > > to > >> > navigate with a screen reader, is pretty bad in terms of how things are > >> > named and how the documentation is written. I mean, it truly makes no > >> > sense > >> > at time. It doesn't say, for instance, how to set VBR or ABR despite > >> > discussing them, and I see it's given one reader the opposite idea of > > what > >> > it meant by cautioning against not using a floor setting. Same for the > > on > >> > the fly explanation. It starts by saying one thing, then reverses > > itself > >> > not out of intention but just because the writing is confused, and no > > one > >> > edited it for clarity. > >> > > >> > I believe your own explanation of the on the fly deal sounded right. > > I've > >> > noticed that ripping takes much longer when you uncheck it, so I assume > >> > this > >> > is because those operations I'm hearing tracked by the progress bar > >> > involve > >> > a first one that writes the track to an image, as you put it, and then > > it > >> > converts that to an .mp3. But honestly, this stuff wouldn't be so hard > > if > >> > the interface and documentation were a little better done. > >> > > >> > I know, beggars can't be choosers. So step on my pencil cup and smash > > my > >> > blues guitar. But still. > >> > > >> > Okay, so what about the ABR setting? Is that how you'd make it? and > > then > >> > do you still set a minimum and maximum for it to work with? > >> > > >> > thanks, guys. > >> > coencodr fr > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Kevin Lloyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> > To: "PC audio discussion list. " <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org> > >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 11:27 AM > >> > Subject: Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats > >> > > >> > > >> > Hi. > >> > > >> > There was a full version of CDEX released after this beta but > >> > unfortunately > >> > version 1.51 didn't work on many peoples machines and so the beta lived > >> > on. > >> > > >> > Regards. > >> > > >> > Kevin > >> > E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Yardbird" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> > To: "PC audio discussion list. " <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org> > >> > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 9:03 PM > >> > Subject: Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats > >> > > >> > > >> >> Ah, so the Control A select all works, even though control homeand > >> >> then > >> >> select to end didn't? Interesting. In other such situations, often > >> > control > >> >> A won't work, but if you go to the top or bottom of an area and select > >> > home > >> >> or select end, that will copy all. ah, I know what it is I'm thinking > >> >> of. > >> >> The General or Details tabs of the properties display for an Outlook > >> > Express > >> >> message. > >> >> > >> >> Okay. I'll look again... > >> >> One more thing about the version of CdEx. How come it's a Beta > > version? > >> >> Isn't there going to be a final version released? > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "Kevin Lloyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> >> To: "PC audio discussion list. " <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org> > >> >> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 12:27 PM > >> >> Subject: Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I use that version of CDEX as I think most people on the list do. > > There > >> > is > >> >> actually an updated version 1.6 available now but I'm not sure what > >> >> the > >> > new > >> >> features are. > >> >> > >> >> It's true that when you hit enter on a help topic, JAWS will start > >> >> reading > >> >> the page. You can't use your PC cursor to read the page back but you > > can > >> >> use the JAWS cursor to do so. Alternatively, use control + A to > >> >> select > >> > and > >> >> control + C to copy and paste into a word document. This does work > >> >> and > >> >> here's the CDEX introduction copied in exactly that way. > >> >> > >> >> Introduction > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> This document describes CDex, a utility for extracting sound files > >> >> from > >> > CDs > >> >> in your CD-ROM drive, and for converting WAV files into several other > >> >> (compressed) formats, like the popular MP3 format. > >> >> > >> >> The latest version of CDex can be downloaded from: > >> >> http://www.cdex.n3.net > >> >> > >> >> System Requirements > >> >> Status of CDex > >> >> Acknowledgements > >> >> Change log > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Kevin > >> >> E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "Yardbird" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> >> To: "PC audio discussion list. " <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org> > >> >> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 8:14 PM > >> >> Subject: Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > One more thing: I just opened the copy of CdEx on my computer and > >> >> attempted > >> >> > to study the help file topics about things I need to learn. But > >> >> > even > >> >> though > >> >> > the topic list is set up like a tree view, and I can navigate it > >> >> > fine > >> > and > >> >> > open books or topics to arrow to their sub topics, when I hit Enter, > >> >> > I'm > >> >> > taken to a page that > >> >> > 1. starts reading audotmatically in Jaws if I don't touch the > >> >> > keyboard, > >> >> but > >> >> > can't be read deliberately with the arrow keys and Jaws reading > >> >> keystrokes. > >> >> > I thought maybe I could compensate by selecting and copying each > >> > topics's > >> >> > text to the clipboard and pasting into a text editor to read, but my > >> >> attempt > >> >> > to do this also failed, for some reason. > >> >> > > >> >> > Also, the text seems incomplete, from what I can figure out, like > > only > >> >> topic > >> >> > headings are given but then there's no actual writing beyond that. > >> >> > > >> >> > 2. I checked my version of CdEx, and I wonder if it's not really > > what > >> >> > I > >> >> > ought to be using if I want to have the latest configuration and > >> >> > more > >> >> usable > >> >> > or fully written help documentation. I have version 1.51 Beta. A > >> > friend > >> >> > put it on my system, saying it's what he uses. But is this out of > >> >> > date? > >> >> If > >> >> > so, where do I go to download the latest version of CdEx? > >> >> > > >> >> > thanks. > >> >> > > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> > From: "Kevin Lloyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> >> > To: "PC audio discussion list. " <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org> > >> >> > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 10:53 AM > >> >> > Subject: Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Hi Daniel. > >> >> > > >> >> > CDEX will allow you to use a number of encoders to rip your music > >> >> > and > >> >> allow > >> >> > you to use constant or variable bit rates. The WMA format is > > available > >> >> but > >> >> > not all bit rates are supported for the version of the encoder > >> >> > included. > >> >> > > >> >> > Saying that, the default Lame encoder is regarded as one of the best > >> >> > MP3 > >> >> > encoders around and in comparison tests I've done myself and read > >> >> > about, > >> >> it > >> >> > out performs WMA with most music genres. > >> >> > > >> >> > With regards to your question on burning the compressed MP3 or WMA > >> >> > files > >> >> to > >> >> > CD, well, you have the choice when burning to either create an audio > > CD > >> >> for > >> >> > play in a standard CD player which will convert the compressed file > >> >> > into > >> >> WAV > >> >> > and then CDDA or you can burn the files to a data CD which will burn > >> > them > >> >> > exactly as they are on your hard drive. That is, compressed. There > >> >> > are > >> >> > increasing numbers of players on the market now, both portable and > >> > genuine > >> >> > hi-fi, that will play these data CD's with your MP3 music. This > > means > >> > you > >> >> > could have 10 albums or more on a single disc. Kelly's point was > >> > exactly > >> >> > this that MP3 is still the most popular compressed format and most > > well > >> >> > supported. You wouldn't want to rip a collection of CD's into WMA > > and > >> >> find > >> >> > that you couldn't play them on anything else but your computer. > > Maybe > >> > you > >> >> > might now but chances are you'll want to take them with you at some > >> > point > >> >> > and want to invest in a portable player. Having them ripped into > >> >> > MP3 > >> > will > >> >> > give you a much greater choice of player when that day comes. > >> >> > > >> >> > Regards. > >> >> > > >> >> > Kevin > >> >> > E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> > From: "Yardbird" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> >> > To: "PC audio discussion list. " <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org> > >> >> > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 2:17 AM > >> >> > Subject: Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > Hi Kelly, > >> >> > > thanks for responding. I have a copy of CdEx, though I forget the > >> >> > version. > >> >> > > But it doesn't offer any .wma possibilities at all, only .mp3 and > >> > .wav. > >> >> > > Does this mean I have an old version of it? Someone else loaded > >> >> > > it > >> > onto > >> >> > my > >> >> > > system for me. If I can update and see a more comprehensive array > > of > >> >> > > compression options, that'd be reassuring. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Also, I confess I don't understand about wither a compressed file > > can > >> >> play > >> >> > > on a CD player: From what I've learned so far, I have the > > impression > >> >> that > >> >> > > if you burn an .mp3 or other compressed music file to a CD, it > >> >> > > will > >> >> > > be > >> >> > > converted, either manually or, in some programs, automatically, to > > a > >> >> .wav > >> >> > > file to be burned. Isn't this so? If it is, then what does it > >> >> > > matter > >> >> > > whether the file on your hard drive is .mp3 or .wma? > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Please explain further. I'm educating myself with your help. > >> >> > > thanks, > >> >> > > Daniel > >> >> > > > >> >> > > ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> > > From: "Kelly Pierce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> >> > > To: "PC audio discussion list. " <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org> > >> >> > > Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 3:28 PM > >> >> > > Subject: Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > the options you mentioned with Windows media ripping are also > >> > available > >> >> in > >> >> > > ripping MP3s with CDEX. remember it is in Microsoft's interest to > >> > make > >> >> > > windows Media appear to be a much more attractive experience than > > the > >> >> > > infinitely portable and compatible MP3 format. With MP3 encoding, > >> > files > >> >> > can > >> >> > > be encoded on various levels of quality, with fixed or variable > >> >> > > bit > >> >> rates > >> >> > in > >> >> > > full stereo. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > One thing to consider is the likelihood that the files you rip can > > be > >> >> > played > >> >> > > on other people's computers with different kinds and versions of > >> >> software > >> >> > > and on portable devices in the present and future. many CD > >> >> > > players > >> > can > >> >> > play > >> >> > > MP3 files but only a fraction of these can also play Windows Media > >> >> files. > >> >> > > to verify this, just go to bestbuy.com and review the portable CD > >> >> players > >> >> > > available for sale. Most play MP3 files but only one can also > >> >> > > play > >> >> > windows > >> >> > > Media files as well. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > I encode most of the music I rip in MP3 at 256 bit in full stereo > > at > >> > the > >> >> > > very highest quality. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Kelly > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> > > From: "Yardbird" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> >> > > To: "PC-Audio" <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org> > >> >> > > Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 12:39 AM > >> >> > > Subject: Understanding and comparing compression formats > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > I've just been learning how to rip music from CDs to my hard > > drive > >> >> using > >> >> > > > several different programs, and the one that interests me most > >> >> > > > at > >> >> > present > >> >> > > > is > >> >> > > > Windows Media Player because of the variety of formats it > >> >> > > > offers. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > As I explore and test these formats, one thing confuses me: You > >> >> > > > can > >> >> rip > >> >> > > > Windows Media Audio files about six different ways, not counting > >> >> > > > the > >> >> > > > lossless option. Now, I'm aware that .mp3 ripping can be > > adjusted > >> > to > >> >> > use > >> >> > > > bit rates higher than the default 128 in order to restore a > > little > >> > of > >> >> > the > >> >> > > > information that a lower bit rate strips out. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > but understanding that is simple compared to the range of .wma > >> >> options. > >> >> > > > Here's the main thing that puzzles me. In the WMP menu for > > setting > >> >> your > >> >> > > > rip > >> >> > > > options, there are *two* sets of .wma options, each with its own > >> > range > >> >> > of > >> >> > > > sound quality level. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > First is the .wma choice that uses a slider to provide you > > with,as > >> >> > > > I > >> >> > > > recall, > >> >> > > > three levels of sound quality. I've ripped the same track with > > all > >> >> > three, > >> >> > > > and not only listened to them-- the differences are audible to > > me, > >> >> > > > although > >> >> > > > pretty subtle compared to the difference between any of them and > > a > >> >> less > >> >> > > > compressed lossless or uncompress .wav version. Still, for > > saving > >> >> > space, > >> >> > > > I > >> >> > > > appreciate the compression, so I remain interested. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > Okay. So the smallest .wma sound quality level creates a really > >> > small > >> >> > > > file, > >> >> > > > much smaller than the same tune ripped to .mp3. And it doesn't > >> > sound > >> >> > any > >> >> > > > worse than the .mp3, was my impression. The next higher levels > >> > create > >> >> > > > larger files, with the highest quality level creating a file for > >> >> > > > any > >> >> > given > >> >> > > > track that's about the same size as a 192 bit rate .mp3. If I > >> >> > > > go > >> > this > >> >> > > > way, > >> >> > > > I'd suppose that's the method I'd use, so you get a little > >> >> > > > better > >> >> sound > >> >> > > > quality than an .mp3 for the same file size. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > But then, right beneath this on that menu, there's a variable > >> >> > > > bit > >> > rate > >> >> > > > .wma > >> >> > > > option, again set by a slider, but this time starting at 0 per > > cent > >> >> and > >> >> > > > going up. Zero per cent of what? And, more to the point, if > > this > >> > has > >> >> > to > >> >> > > > do > >> >> > > > with changing bit rates (doesn't the other method, I wonder? > >> >> > > > How > >> > else > >> >> > > > would > >> >> > > > you change quality except by varying the bit rate?) where are > >> >> > > > the > >> >> > > > indications for *what* bit rate this slider takes you through? > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > So that's it. I'm really wondering about this stuff as I try to > >> >> settle > >> >> > on > >> >> > > > a > >> >> > > > preferred rip method to set for my usual use. Does anyone > >> > understand > >> >> > > > whatever it is I'm not getting about these two adjustable .ma > >> > formats? > >> >> > Is > >> >> > > > there anywhere to read a simple primer about them? I don't feel > >> >> > > > the > >> >> > need > >> >> > > > to > >> >> > > > do research if someone can just explain what it is I'm not > >> >> > understanding. > >> >> > > > But just in case there's some online information about this that > >> > would > >> >> > > > clarify it all, that would be fine, too. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > Thanks, > >> >> > > > Daniel > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > -- > >> >> > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > >> >> > > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >> >> > > > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.5 - Release Date: > >> >> > > > 5/4/2005 > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > > > PC-Audio List Help, Guidelines, Archives and more... > >> >> > > > http://www.pc-audio.org > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to: > >> >> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > > PC-Audio List Help, Guidelines, Archives and more... > >> >> > > http://www.pc-audio.org > >> >> > > > >> >> > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to: > >> >> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > -- > >> >> > > No virus found in this incoming message. > >> >> > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >> >> > > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.6 - Release Date: > > 5/6/2005 > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > -- > >> >> > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > >> >> > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >> >> > > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.6 - Release Date: > > 5/6/2005 > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > > PC-Audio List Help, Guidelines, Archives and more... > >> >> > > http://www.pc-audio.org > >> >> > > > >> >> > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to: > >> >> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > PC-Audio List Help, Guidelines, Archives and more... > >> >> > http://www.pc-audio.org > >> >> > > >> >> > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to: > >> >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > No virus found in this incoming message. > >> >> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >> >> > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.6 - Release Date: 5/6/2005 > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > No virus found in this outgoing message. > >> >> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >> >> > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.6 - Release Date: 5/6/2005 > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > PC-Audio List Help, Guidelines, Archives and more... > >> >> > http://www.pc-audio.org > >> >> > > >> >> > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to: > >> >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> PC-Audio List Help, Guidelines, Archives and more... > >> >> http://www.pc-audio.org > >> >> > >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to: > >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >> >> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.6 - Release Date: 5/6/2005 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. > >> >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >> >> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.6 - Release Date: 5/6/2005 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> PC-Audio List Help, Guidelines, Archives and more... > >> >> http://www.pc-audio.org > >> >> > >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to: > >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > PC-Audio List Help, Guidelines, Archives and more... > >> > http://www.pc-audio.org > >> > > >> > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to: > >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > No virus found in this incoming message. > >> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >> > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.8 - Release Date: 5/10/2005 > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > No virus found in this outgoing message. > >> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >> > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.8 - Release Date: 5/10/2005 > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > PC-Audio List Help, Guidelines, Archives and more... > >> > http://www.pc-audio.org > >> > > >> > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to: > >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> PC-Audio List Help, Guidelines, Archives and more... > >> http://www.pc-audio.org > >> > >> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to: > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.8 - Release Date: 5/10/2005 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> No virus found in this outgoing message. > >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.8 - Release Date: 5/10/2005 > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> PC-Audio List Help, Guidelines, Archives and more... > >> http://www.pc-audio.org > >> > >> To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to: > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > PC-Audio List Help, Guidelines, Archives and more... > > http://www.pc-audio.org > > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > PC-Audio List Help, Guidelines, Archives and more... > http://www.pc-audio.org > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] _______________________________________________ PC-Audio List Help, Guidelines, Archives and more... http://www.pc-audio.org To unsubscribe from this list, send a blank email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
