I am having difficulties with this nitpicking of what is on the ground
and the whole discussion whether or not we are allowed to map it or not.
We can also not check the speed of highspeed lines on the ground since
they usually have no speed signs. Yet we still do map that.
I would be very pissed off if we come to a conclusion that we need
absolute 100% on the ground verifiability for each and every item that
we map when there are multiple (for OSM legally) usable sources where we
can verify the correctness.
There is no rule saying we can only map things that are physically
observable. The "Map what's on the ground" rule is about what to do when
conflicting information is presented, not a ban to not map things you
can not observe.
Regards,
Maarten
On 2020-06-10 08:07, Natfoot wrote:
Hi Tyson,
Here is the issue I have. You say that you can tell whether a
ETCS-equipped railway line is operating in Level 1, 2, or 3. How
do you know it is an ETCS-equipped line? Your response would be
that, "one can affirmatively
assert that a railway line is ETCS-equipped by pointing out
Eurobalises/Euroloops." How do you know that? This sounds like
special knowledge rather than information I can pick up by standing
next to it or looking directly at it.
If I may for a moment look at CTC how do I know that that is by
looking at the signals and shunts. Do I have special knowledge?
Yes, I do. Does this change your argument? This is what I was asking
when I said.
"If we can both assume that we both have extensive working knowledge
of
railroads or railways and that we can identify correctly the system
in
use. Can we assume that we should be allowed to map it if we can
look
at the ground and see that it is what it is? Or do we need to make
the
assumption that we don't have a working knowledge of railroads or
railways and that we need to assume a role as an outsider when
mapping
railroads and only map what we can see (signals, switches, balises,
magnets, contacts etc.)?"
I will agree that understanding if you are looking at a CTC line
or not is a specialized characteristic of a mapper. And I will also
assert that understanding if you are looking at an ETCS-equipped
line and Level 1, 2, or 3 is also a specialized characteristic of a
mapper.
Be Careful about the use of terminology as it may not be the same. I
will not assume that the OCS that you are using here means Occupancy
Control System as I found a completely different meaning on
Wikipedia.
I would be the first to agree that Train Protection in this context
primarily aligns with PTC as I described in my previous email:
" Here in America what you are describing in train protection is
Positive Train Control (PTC). Positive train control has GPS based
land stations and locomotive GPS attachments and hardware. " ACSES
is a specialized version of PTC and not wide spread here. I had to
look this up to find this out.
I think we can both agree that the detail in your statement is too
much detail for OpenStreetMap "(And the signs don't count, because
they could simply be overridden in Special Instructions (or the US
equivalent). Moreover, there are no signs that differentiate -- for
example -- siding control territory (SCT) from CTC sidings in
Canada.)" Your statement is like saying we should not map the
seasonal roads as they could be closed. Seasonal roads here are
tagged as "access:conditional" rather than leaving it without a tag.
Of course those tags are general and not specific and the road
department can close the road or make it one way at any time.
In your statement: "While signs for these exist (in some locations),
they are not properties of the railway line itself: rather,
they are properties of how movements on the railway line are
conducted." So what is ACSES, ETCS, and LZB?
These are not descriptors of the line; these are descriptors in your
words of wayside equipment (Eurobalises/Euroloops, balises, and
signals) attached to a system of train protection for train
moments. I would conclude that "they are not properties of the
railway line itself: rather,they are properties of how movements on
the railway line are conducted."
Are these two arguments clear?
OpenStreetMap is not an ideal place for a lot of the railway data we
want to add to OpenRailwayMap. I would reconsider the use of
"Signalling" to "Train Protection" on OpenRailwayMap, if your
argument stands. Signalling is train movement.
Cheers,
Nathan P
email: [email protected]
*
Reference:
As*sert
_verb_
*
state a fact or belief confidently and forcefully.
"the company asserts that the cuts will not affect development"
