2009/10/2 Albert Astals Cid <aa...@kde.org>: > A Divendres, 2 d'octubre de 2009, Benoit Jacob va escriure: >> 2009/10/2 Albert Astals Cid <aa...@kde.org>: >> > A Divendres, 2 d'octubre de 2009, Elvis Stansvik va escriure: >> >> 2009/10/2 Albert Astals Cid <aa...@kde.org>: >> >> > A Divendres, 2 d'octubre de 2009, Benoit Jacob va escriure: >> >> >> Hi List, >> >> >> >> >> >> I noticed that the rendering of DVI documents was broken exactly in >> >> >> the same way as what I observed with PDF documents, namely, it used >> >> >> auto-hinting which looks especially bad with TeX fonts. >> >> >> >> >> >> Attached is a 1-line patch that changes it. I need your permission to >> >> >> commit. >> >> >> >> >> >> Screenshots: >> >> >> * original : >> >> >> http://picasaweb.google.ca/lh/photo/fry54ANy23UesNpFhbWanA?feat=dire >> >> >>ctl ink * fixed : >> >> >> http://picasaweb.google.ca/lh/photo/OjQIZ7Of6wP74k7fKUwXTw?feat=dire >> >> >>ctl ink >> >> >> >> >> >> Here are some comments before one objects that disabling hinting is >> >> >> just a matter of taste, etc. >> >> >> >> >> >> First, it's obvious that the "original" screenshot linked above is >> >> >> horrible and that the "fixed" is the one that looks good. >> >> >> >> >> >> Second, it is a consensus on the Poppler/PDF side that one should use >> >> >> no hinting, and then, there's no reason why DVI should be any >> >> >> different. To summarize the situation on the PDF side: >> >> >> * poppler/cairo (hence Evince) 's code completely disables hinting >> >> >> * poppler/splash (hence Okular) 's code _meant_ to completely disable >> >> >> hinting (actually only auto-hinting, but in the context of DVI that's >> >> >> really the same because almost all DVI files use Type 1 fonts, and >> >> >> bytecode only exists in TrueType fonts). It was a clear bug in the >> >> >> code, where it was clear that the code didn't do what it intended, >> >> >> that resulted in hinted fonts being used. >> >> >> >> >> >> Third, the old KDVI used to not do any hinting, I'm completely sure >> >> >> of that because I've spent hundreds of hours looking at documents in >> >> >> it. I remember distinctly the (imho beautiful) slightly fuzzy look of >> >> >> the TeX fonts in it, that is characteristic of non-hinted text, >> >> >> although at that time I didn't know about hinting. That said, I used >> >> >> "svn annotate" to see who enabled hinting in the C++ code, and it >> >> >> turns out to be Stefan Kebekus himself in an old revision >> >> >> (240000-something). I am puzzled about that, but I still maintain >> >> >> that KDVI didn't use hinting on all the Linux systems that I tried. >> >> >> My best guess is that Stefan Kebekus _thought_ that he had enabled >> >> >> hinting but for some reason it wasn't used. I haven't investigated >> >> >> further as this is quite intricate, and of course I only have >> >> >> Okular's code at hand, I haven't looked at the actual KDVI code. >> >> >> >> >> >> OK to commit? >> >> > >> >> > No, actually what it is clear that *you* don't like hinting, and you >> >> > have a certain amount of followers, the problem is that typically >> >> > people that is happy with a setting is not much active defending it >> >> > because they are happy in their sofas. >> >> > >> >> > My suggestion is adding a configuration option that lets the user >> >> > choose between "No Hinting", "Hinting" and "Hinting as set in KDE >> >> > settings". For KDE 4.3.x we can add it, it set in "Hinting" and the >> >> > only configuration option will be thought non GUI as we can't add >> >> > translatable texts. For KDE 4.4.x we can default to "No Hinting" if >> >> > others here (basically Pino, Brad, Tokoe) agree. >> >> >> >> I'm not one of those three, but I'll just chime in anyway and say that >> >> I agree with Benoit that, at least in the example he gave, it's very >> >> obvious that the non-hinted version looks much better. I'm not trying >> >> to troll here, but come on, in some places the hinted one is hardly >> >> readable, the characters are all jumpy; e.g. the 'T' in the very first >> >> word. I don't know if this is a bug in the hinting or just the way >> >> it's supposed to look. >> >> >> >> Anyway, this doesn't make me a "follower" of Benoit; I'm just calling >> >> it like I see it ;) >> > >> > That's one PDF in one hundred, and i've already felt too many times >> > people hating me becuase I changed something I considered mintor but was >> > critical for them, so for me it's a setting all the way. >> >> You miss the point, it's not a PDF, it's a DVI, and that makes all the >> difference, because as I explained in my previous email, 95% of DVI >> files use the same TeX font, so if I show you a bad screenshot with >> this font, it's to be taken seriously. >> >> Albert, seriously. I've fixed one of the top bugs in Okular, that >> makes it useless to half of people as far as PDF is concerned, and to >> everybody as far as DVI is concerned, and you don't even acknowledge >> the bug. > > Man, you are starting to repeat yourself > >> Let alone say thank you. Instead, you answer like I'm just an >> angry user who wants to steer Okular his own way. The bug wasn't hard >> to fix, you just need to acknowledge that while hinting can >> *sometimes* increase the crispness, it *always* degrades the fidelity >> of the rendering, and, regardless of "sometimes" versus "always", in >> the PARTICULAR setting of a PDF/DVI viewer, it should be OBVIOUS that >> fidelity is more important than crispness. > > You want a thanks? > > THANKS > THANKS > THANKS
Sigh. Am I really ridiculous, as you imply, for having expected a little "thanks" ? > Here you have three, please try to be constructive. Constructive? - I fix a bug in poppler and one in Okular - I provide explanations of my findings - I provide rationalizations of my opinions what more can i do. seriously? > We have reached the situation in which it seems hinting is the culprit for > some bad font rendering. Yes. > Trust me in the fact that i know some people like > hinting, if you can't trust me, bad luck, but i'm the core developer here. Again, here I was submitting a patch that affects only DVI rendering. Only TeX fonts. I explained in the previous mail how this makes all the difference. > I even gave you the default value, but you want to win so much that you don't > even want the option to exist? I don't really see what your problem is. I never said that. As soon as I read about your proposal to introduce the option, I was satisfied. It is useless for DVI, but it doesn't disturb me. And I understand that you want only one GUI for configuration, not one per file format. All is OK and for the rest, I was only replying point by point to your replies. Again, let's not end this discussion on bad feelings. I don't know how such a technical discussion about patches could lead to bad moods but let's make sure it's over now. I never meant to offend you or attack you personnally, I was only criticizing existing code. Thanks for listening, Benoit _______________________________________________ Okular-devel mailing list Okular-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/okular-devel
