Re: [nysbirds-l] Red-necked Stint questions

[Arie Gilbert]

On 7/6/2013 8:30 AM, Michael Scheibel wrote: Andrew, well said.  I've been birding those flats since I was a teenager with Dennis Puleston, Gil Raynor , Jim Clinton Sr., et al;  when offered advice from today's birders with up to date information, I take it. I've met a lot of birders over the past many decades, it would be hard to imagine any one birder that is more willing and able to share his vast knowledge & experience than, Shaibal Mitra. Michael Willingly "sharing his vast knowledge and experience" could have taken the form of offering modifications to the map, which is not what he chose to do. It does not excuse the vitriol. ----------------------------------------- Andrew You said "I don't know why you felt this was an attack on you or google maps for that matter. " Really?? Shaibal said " the "trail through marsh" marked in blue is not a route I have ever seen a human traverse; etc., etc."  and "Google maps are not the solution to this problem!"  not to mention: "I'm going to make one more point here, before I completely lose patience with this thread." >>>  Andrew, you need to rub your eyes some more because your reading comprehension skills are pathetically lacking. Of course you could also have browsed my map and the legend therein, and seen that the points you make in your first paragraph are addressed there re cautions and positions approximate and tidal changes. But why bother? It's so much easier to jump to conclusions than know what you are talking about. And what is your point re previous iterations of directions? Is it 'How dare you make a map when the other directions are available?" You also said: " I don't know why it is patronizing for out of state birders if they are not comfortable with getting onto the flats, to wait for some help." Its not. Telling them to do so in lieu of giving them "...any more specific directions..."   IS.   Nowhere does that individual ask to be guided.  Again, reading comprehension skills would come in handy here Andrew. The out of state birder in question stated: "I hope to go after the Red-necked Stint tomorrow, but I am still confused as to the area dubbed as "the flats" where the bird has been seen at Cupsogue. I have never been here and any more specific directions within the park would be greatly appreciated. " Instead of telling him to wait for a guide, I responded with a map. And this incurred the wrath of Mitra.   " ...Shai Mitra, has been most gracious and generous with his time and knowledge..." is not how I would characterize his email. Not by a long shot. Arie Gilbert No. Babylon, NY  www.Powerbirder.blogspot.com  www.qcbirdclub.org Mike Scheibel Brookhaven On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Andrew Baksh <birdingd...@gmail.com> wrote: Arie, I had to read your post a couple of times rub my eyes and read it again.  I don't know why you felt this was an attack on you or google maps for that matter.  Shai merely made a point that google maps would not be optimal in this case and rightly so.  The access points towards the Cupsogue flats continually change and ever since Hurricane Sandy it has become even more volatile.  About a month ago I myself got caught in a deep channel that a few weeks before was not as deep and so it is a continuous learning process.  Shai's experience in seeing and rescuing many birders who have run into trouble is one reason for his obvious frustration with regards to accessing the flats.   Directions have been spelt out in several e-mails and posted to the list serves on how to try and navigate out to the flats.  For example, Ken and Sue Feustel wrote a useful e-mail with directions not too long ago.  In addition, these same set of directions are posted on the RBA (see Friday's report).  So unless someone is mapping out every day the changes in the shifting mud and channels on a goggle map, it really serves no purpose.  The directions spelled are the best bet once a visitor arrives at Cupsogue County Park. Moving on to your other comments, I don't know why it is patronizing for out of state birders if they are not comfortable with getting onto the flats, to wait for some help.  Sounds more like common sense to me and I know if I was an out of town birder and someone was willing to take me out to the flats, I would be grateful.  I am not too proud to accept help. I and many other Long Island birders have many times taken folks out to the flats and no one has yet complained. You mention the clam folks figuring it out, well those clam folks are not walking around with thousands of dollars of optical equipment and that is why they cross channels that get up to their armpits in water.  Then there are the ones who come in from the inlet side via boat anchoring out there and working the flats.  They don't have to cross the deep channels that birders and photographers do when heading in from the parking lot. Finally, let me add that Shai Mitra, has been most gracious and generous with his time and knowledge over the years helping many birders both locals and non locals in birding the flats at Cupsogue.  As recently as last week it was he who led the charge during a still reasonably high tide, that enabled many birders to get the Red-necked Stint.   Ask those birders if they felt "patronized". Sent from my iPad On Jul 5, 2013, at 10:52 PM, Arie Gilbert <ariegilb...@optonline.net> wrote: I asked for input to update  and improve the map - You interpreted that as a license to be obnoxious. Bravo You don't like google maps? So what? Others ~do~ even when they are less than optimal. Furthermore to suggest that out of state, or any birders for that matter, wait around hoping for someone to guide them is patronizing. The folks with the clam forks figured it out. I'll bet persons carrying optics will be capable as well. At least the map gives them an overview of the area and a starting point.  That you believe people are somehow hobbled by them and unable to make alternative navigational choices is arrogant. You alternatively, could have chosen to be helpful. Arie Gilbert North Babylon, NY WWW.Powerbirder.blogspot.com  WWW.qcbirdclub.org On 7/5/2013 3:13 PM, Shaibal Mitra wrote: People, Before someone gets hurt, please note that the routes marked on this map are entirely incorrect. The areas indicated as the flats are not in fact the flats that can be reached on foot; the crossing point is marked in the wrong place and goes in the wrong direction; the "trail through marsh" marked in blue is not a route I have ever seen a human traverse; etc., etc. I'm going to make one more point here, before I completely lose patience with this thread. Google maps are not the solution to this problem! If you are not comfortable birding this area without your every step being pre-plotted via gps, go to the parking lot and tag along with someone who knows what they are doing. Again, Google maps are not the solution to this problem! I will re-quote what I posted the other day: The flats around Moriches Inlet do not have a unique pair of coordinates. In fact, the good spots to check in this area don't even really have a finite set of coordinates. They change from minute to minute, day to day, and year to year, and they are densely interspersed with places you probably don't want to be. What you want are directions to Pikes Beach and Cupsogue County Park (these are at the west end of Dune Rd, just east of Moriches Inlet, Suffolk County, Long Island), and then some good judgment in exploration of the tidal marshes and flats to the north of these well marked localities. The Red-necked Stint has been seen in many places in the five acre area directly north of the main parking lot at Cupsogue. The portions of this area that ! exposed ! at low t ide but devoid of marsh vegetation are what people are referring to as "the flats." Experience has shown that birds originally found in this area have often moved over to another patch of habitat a bit to the east, directly north of Pikes Beach (and vice versa); examples include a Red-necked Stint in July 2000 and a Curlew Sandpiper in June 2012, as well as innumerable less rare but individually distinctive shorebirds. Binary coordinates are not what you need--remember, there is an ecologically critical third dimension involved here, the vertical one, which allows for substrates to be variably immersed and exposed, according to tides and weather. Shai Mitra Bay Shore From: bounce-99253974-11143...@list.cornell.edu [bounce-99253974-11143...@list.cornell.edu] on behalf of Angus Wilson [oceanwander...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 2:28 PM To: NYSBIRDS-L Cc: Arie Gilbert Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Red-necked Stint questions Hi Arie, I don't think your Google map annotations are plotted quite right and I am not savvy enough to modify them. The dredge island that some folk camp on and is used as a landmark for birders is to the RIGHT of the shallows you've circled. The flats suitable for birding are SE of this other island. To put it another way, they just left (west) of the words "Incorporated Village...". The channel you have marked is far too deep to cross. One has to proceed further up the narrow spit of sand from where your brown and blue lines intersect and then cross very carefully on a NE vector from there. On the falling tide the channel can be waist deep or greater with some current so caution is advised. The 4WD road (red) and beach path (brown) are correct. Cheers, Angus Wilson -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- Washington Monthly magazine ranks the College of Staten Island as one of “America’s Best-Bang-for-the-Buck Colleges” -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3345 / Virus Database: 3204/6468 - Release Date: 07/05/13 -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! --