Thank you Martin.Long time I haven't heard from you. And glad we agree.
Anne [email protected]
On Saturday, July 27, 2024 at 07:36:00 PM MDT, Swan Valley Bushcraft
<[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Anne. Thanks for the agreement. I would be the Martin from The Accretion
Desk.
Best.
On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 6:54 PM Anne Black <[email protected]> wrote:
Thank you Martin (but which Martin are you?) And YES I agree entirely with
you. 2 very big issues there: Classification, and Trust.Anybody else?
Anne [email protected]
On Saturday, July 27, 2024 at 04:29:18 PM MDT, Swan Valley Bushcraft via
Meteorite-list <[email protected]> wrote:
I’m pretty good with sugar donuts too. I can tell a sugar donut from a muffin
from a scone at a distance. And I can tell a red wine from a white by smell
alone. But those are the same rough physical characteristics we used 150 years
ago. They worked well for telling the difference between stones and irons but
things got complicated quickly. Many of us have bought unclassified meteorites
without hesitation feeling confident that the rock was in fact a meteorite. But
while I have strong suspicions about a further or deeper classification, I feel
it would be irresponsible to suggest anything more specific if selling the
piece especially if mentioning a classification outside ordinary chondrite.
That said, the trust issues that the meteorite collecting community faces are
certainly far beyond informed guesses about unclassified material.
BestMartin
On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 2:53 AM Ineed Moresleep via Meteorite-list
<[email protected]> wrote:
Hello there meteorite list-serve members!
This may seem like an oddball offering, but I’ve got a box of sugar donuts for
sale if anyone’s interested. At least, I think they’re sugar donuts. I haven’t
actually opened the box to check, but based on my own donut experience, I can
tell you with fairly reasonable certainty that these are most likely sugar
donuts. They smell like sugar donuts and some of the crumbly crumbs that have
fallen out of the box look like the sugary sprinkles that sugar donuts always
have. Plus, I got them from a guy who buys his donuts on this street that has a
bunch of Lamar’s donuts shops that run sugar donuts specials on Saturdays, and
he almost always gets the special on that street.
I know that there’s a number of you who’d rather know for certain what kind of
donut you’re buying, so this box probably isn’t for you. But there are also
lots of people who’d just be happy to have a donut. That’s the market I’m
looking to sell this box to. And they’ll just take my word that this is a box
of sugar donuts unless they actually want to open the box and find out for sure
themselves after they buy it.
Cheers!
Stephanie Copeland
On Jul 25, 2024, at 11:29 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Send Meteorite-list mailing list submissions to
[email protected]
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
[email protected]
You can reach the person managing the list at
[email protected]
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Meteorite-list digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Meteorite unclassified (Anne Black)
2. Re: Meteorite unclassified (Graham Ensor)
3. Meteorite Picture of the Day ([email protected])
4. Re: Meteorite unclassified (Anne Black)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 01:21:54 +0000 (UTC)
From: Anne Black <[email protected]>
To: Rhett Bourland <[email protected]>, Graham Ensor
<[email protected]>
Cc: Meteorite List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Sorry Graham, I do have provenance for all of mine.
Anne Black
[email protected]
On Wednesday, July 24, 2024 at 04:27:21 PM MDT, Graham Ensor via
Meteorite-list <[email protected]> wrote:
just an addition...an example.
Would people buy one of these Allende meteorites or similar from other dealers
pages which I think we are all pretty confident are Allende's...but I'm pretty
sure these were just fond in the same strewnfield and have not been analysed to
make sure.
https://impactika.com/product/allende-carbonaceous/
Graham
On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 4:46?PM Rhett Bourland <[email protected]> wrote:
Honestly, just because a meteorite is found in a known strewn field doesn't
automatically make it part of the same fall.? Twink Monrad found Golden Rule
and Golden Mile in the Gold Basin strewn field.? Calcalong Creek was originally
sold as part of the Camel Donga strew field.? NWA482 was originally thought to
be a eucrite.? The folks who go to Antarctica each year go back to the same
areas to find more because of the way glaciers move.
When talking about how not getting everything classified is bad for science,
that isn't just about common material being sold as something much rarer.? The
real danger is rare and scientifically important pieces being sold as something
more common.
On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:22?AM Graham Ensor <[email protected]> wrote:
I see no problem in anybody saying a probable meteorite is unclassified but is
likely to be a certain type. It is no different on line or throught the met
list than traveling through Morocco or visiting a show, looking at hundreds of
unclassified probable meteorites, and discussing the likelyhood of that or what
type they may be with the seller. That's the way many dealers work to find
unusual types that then get taken further to be officially classified. I see no
fault with a NWA seller working in this way. The The fault comes if buyer does
not then get it analysed or classified and tries to sell it on as an authentic
classified meteorite. There are also thousands of meteorites amongst the
hundreds of collections that came through NWA dealers from established large
strewnfields which sit there as examples of a variety of falls/finds and have
never been cut and classified. Just found as part of a new fall/find as it's
impossible for every piece to be classified....examples are Chelya
binsk, Ribbeck, Erg Chech 002, Tissint, Holbrook,...the list is endless. I
suspect very few collections consist of specimens where each individual has
been classified and most have individuals of those I've mentioned (or others)
that have never seen a scientist. If you are new to meteorites or have very
little experience then this is probably not the avenue for you to buy for a
collection unless you are happy to go to the trouble of getting analysis done.
G
On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 2:32?PM Rhett Bourland via Meteorite-list
<[email protected]> wrote:
Educated guesses aren't classifications.? Nobody can do that.? I've got close
to a couple hundred pieces in my collection that I've built up over the past 25
years.? I own classes of meteorites that most museums don't even have because
the museums that I got them from told me where the other pieces were.? I can
safely say that I have handled and seen even more in that time.? The IMCA got
started in my living room. I wouldn't even call something a meteorite unless it
got tested.? As Anne Black recently said, people guessing what they have and
presenting it as such is nothing but harmful for the science and commercial
trade of these rocks and that woman has seen and handled stuff that I can only
dream of.
On Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 3:37?PM <[email protected]> wrote:
Rhett,
?
Our North African meteorite family has earned the right to make educated
guesses, especially after they have proven themselves to be reputable dealers
AND have examined the specimen. They have handled far more meteorites than most
dealers and collectors. There is no surprise that they, and Mohamed in
particular, can tell the difference between a CO and another type of meteorite.
Mohamed was fully transparent and clearly stated that it is unclassified. There
is nothing inauthentic about the posting.
?
I have no ulterior motive in responding to this post other than desiring
respectful discourse.
?
Sincerely,
?
Mendy
?
From: Meteorite-list <[email protected]> On Behalf Of
Rhett Bourland via Meteorite-list
Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2024 9:53 AM
To: Benzaki Mohamed <[email protected]>
Cc: Meteorite List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified
?
It's unclassified and yet you're calling it a CO?? That doesn't sound very
authentic to me.
?
On Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 10:17?AM Benzaki Mohamed via Meteorite-list
<[email protected]> wrote:
Hi all members hop have a good day.
?Everyone interested will be interested by a largeste co carbonaceous
unclassified please contacte? me.all beste.?
______________________________________________
Meteorite-list mailing list
[email protected]
https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
______________________________________________
Meteorite-list mailing list
[email protected]
https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
______________________________________________
Meteorite-list mailing list
[email protected]
https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<https://pairlist2.pair.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/attachments/20240725/da1b976a/attachment-0001.htm>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:16:04 +0100
From: Graham Ensor <[email protected]>
To: Anne Black <[email protected]>
Cc: Rhett Bourland <[email protected]>, Meteorite List
<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified
Message-ID:
<cajkn+kyu6v4kw5usoxxuzsp6jk_hcwn_1ernl+2z5anhirc...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Yes, sorry Anne if you thought I was being critical...I'm not....that's
what I was saying...you have individuals that can be traced back to the
finder in that strewnfield most likely..I'm not doubting the provenances
you have but have all those individuals have been analysed? Much the same
as some of the very trustworthy educated and experienced Moroccan dealers
and many other dealers and collectors selling individuals....so then buyers
are happy to buy those individuals. Unless I am wrong and somehow all those
individuals have each been analysed scientifically without cutting them? I
have a wonderful David New individual Allende but I doubt it has ever been
analysed properly to confirm that....I also have a wonderful uncut,
individual Millbillilie from you which I'm confident is what it is without
analysis.
G
Graham
On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 2:21?AM Anne Black <[email protected]> wrote:
> Sorry Graham, I do have provenance for all of mine.
>
>
> Anne Black
>
> IMPACTIKA.com
> [email protected]
>
>
> On Wednesday, July 24, 2024 at 04:27:21 PM MDT, Graham Ensor via
> Meteorite-list <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> just an addition...an example.
>
> Would people buy one of these Allende meteorites or similar from other
> dealers pages which I think we are all pretty confident are Allende's...but
> I'm pretty sure these were just fond in the same strewnfield and have not
> been analysed to make sure.
>
> https://impactika.com/product/allende-carbonaceous/
>
> Graham
>
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 4:46?PM Rhett Bourland <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> Honestly, just because a meteorite is found in a known strewn field
> doesn't automatically make it part of the same fall. Twink Monrad found
> Golden Rule and Golden Mile in the Gold Basin strewn field. Calcalong
> Creek was originally sold as part of the Camel Donga strew field. NWA482
> was originally thought to be a eucrite. The folks who go to Antarctica
> each year go back to the same areas to find more because of the way
> glaciers move.
>
> When talking about how not getting everything classified is bad for
> science, that isn't just about common material being sold as something much
> rarer. The real danger is rare and scientifically important pieces being
> sold as something more common.
>
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:22?AM Graham Ensor <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> I see no problem in anybody saying a probable meteorite is unclassified
> but is likely to be a certain type. It is no different on line or throught
> the met list than traveling through Morocco or visiting a show, looking at
> hundreds of unclassified probable meteorites, and discussing the likelyhood
> of that or what type they may be with the seller. That's the way many
> dealers work to find unusual types that then get taken further to be
> officially classified. I see no fault with a NWA seller working in this
> way. The The fault comes if buyer does not then get it analysed or
> classified and tries to sell it on as an authentic classified meteorite.
> There are also thousands of meteorites amongst the hundreds of collections
> that came through NWA dealers from established large strewnfields which sit
> there as examples of a variety of falls/finds and have never been cut and
> classified. Just found as part of a new fall/find as it's impossible for
> every piece to be classified....examples are Chelyabinsk, Ribbeck, Erg
> Chech 002, Tissint, Holbrook,...the list is endless. I suspect very few
> collections consist of specimens where each individual has been classified
> and most have individuals of those I've mentioned (or others) that have
> never seen a scientist. If you are new to meteorites or have very little
> experience then this is probably not the avenue for you to buy for a
> collection unless you are happy to go to the trouble of getting analysis
> done.
>
> G
>
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 2:32?PM Rhett Bourland via Meteorite-list <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
> Educated guesses aren't classifications. Nobody can do that. I've got
> close to a couple hundred pieces in my collection that I've built up over
> the past 25 years. I own classes of meteorites that most museums don't
> even have because the museums that I got them from told me where the other
> pieces were. I can safely say that I have handled and seen even more in
> that time. The IMCA got started in my living room. I wouldn't even call
> something a meteorite unless it got tested. As Anne Black recently said,
> people guessing what they have and presenting it as such is nothing but
> harmful for the science and commercial trade of these rocks and that woman
> has seen and handled stuff that I can only dream of.
>
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 3:37?PM <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Rhett,
>
>
>
> Our North African meteorite family has earned the right to make educated
> guesses, especially after they have proven themselves to be reputable
> dealers AND have examined the specimen. They have handled far more
> meteorites than most dealers and collectors. There is no surprise that
> they, and Mohamed in particular, can tell the difference between a CO and
> another type of meteorite. Mohamed was fully transparent and clearly stated
> that it is unclassified. There is nothing inauthentic about the posting.
>
>
>
> I have no ulterior motive in responding to this post other than desiring
> respectful discourse.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> Mendy
>
>
>
> *From:* Meteorite-list <[email protected]> *On
> Behalf Of *Rhett Bourland via Meteorite-list
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 20, 2024 9:53 AM
> *To:* Benzaki Mohamed <[email protected]>
> *Cc:* Meteorite List <[email protected]>
> *Subject:* Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified
>
>
>
> It's unclassified and yet you're calling it a CO? That doesn't sound very
> authentic to me.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 10:17?AM Benzaki Mohamed via Meteorite-list <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
> Hi all members hop have a good day.
>
> Everyone interested will be interested by a largeste co carbonaceous
> unclassified please contacte me.all beste.
>
> ______________________________________________
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> [email protected]
> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
> ______________________________________________
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> [email protected]
> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
> ______________________________________________
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> [email protected]
> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<https://pairlist2.pair.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/attachments/20240725/ec048b57/attachment-0001.htm>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 00:35:55 -0700
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Thursday, Jul 25 2024 Meteorite Picture of the Day: Orange River
Contributed by: jnmczurich
http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpodmain.asp?DD=07/25/2024
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<https://pairlist2.pair.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/attachments/20240725/6188d5bd/attachment-0001.htm>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 16:49:18 +0000 (UTC)
From: Anne Black <[email protected]>
To: Graham Ensor <[email protected]>
Cc: Rhett Bourland <[email protected]>, Meteorite List
<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Thank you Graham.As we both know it is extremely difficult to be absolutely
sure of what we have and our sources no matter how hard we try, and I do wish
that all meteorites were handled the way Almahata Sitta (thank you Siegfried
Haberer and Addi Bishop) and Twannberg (Thank you Marc Jost and Beda Hoffman)
are, verified and numbered. Time consuming but certainly worth it.?
Also:Most of those new meteorites transit through Morocco. Hasna
Chennaoui-Aoudjehane, who is certainly an expert, is right there at the
University Hassan II in Casablanca, why isn't she asked to help and check those
meteorites???
Anne [email protected]
On Thursday, July 25, 2024 at 01:16:17 AM MDT, Graham Ensor
<[email protected]> wrote:
Yes, sorry Anne if you thought I was being critical...I'm not....that's what I
was saying...you have individuals that can be traced back to the finder in that
strewnfield most likely..I'm not doubting the provenances you have but have all
those individuals have been analysed? Much the same as some of the very
trustworthy educated and experienced Moroccan dealers and many other dealers
and collectors selling individuals....so then buyers are happy to buy those
individuals. Unless I am wrong and somehow all those individuals have each been
analysed scientifically without cutting them? I have a wonderful David New
individual Allende but I doubt it has ever been analysed properly to confirm
that....I also have a wonderful uncut, individual Millbillilie from you which
I'm confident is what it is without analysis.
G
Graham
On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 2:21?AM Anne Black <[email protected]> wrote:
Sorry Graham, I do have provenance for all of mine.
Anne Black
[email protected]
On Wednesday, July 24, 2024 at 04:27:21 PM MDT, Graham Ensor via
Meteorite-list <[email protected]> wrote:
just an addition...an example.
Would people buy one of these Allende meteorites or similar from other dealers
pages which I think we are all pretty confident are Allende's...but I'm pretty
sure these were just fond in the same strewnfield and have not been analysed to
make sure.
https://impactika.com/product/allende-carbonaceous/
Graham
On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 4:46?PM Rhett Bourland <[email protected]> wrote:
Honestly, just because a meteorite is found in a known strewn field doesn't
automatically make it part of the same fall.? Twink Monrad found Golden Rule
and Golden Mile in the Gold Basin strewn field.? Calcalong Creek was originally
sold as part of the Camel Donga strew field.? NWA482 was originally thought to
be a eucrite.? The folks who go to Antarctica each year go back to the same
areas to find more because of the way glaciers move.
When talking about how not getting everything classified is bad for science,
that isn't just about common material being sold as something much rarer.? The
real danger is rare and scientifically important pieces being sold as something
more common.
On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:22?AM Graham Ensor <[email protected]> wrote:
I see no problem in anybody saying a probable meteorite is unclassified but is
likely to be a certain type. It is no different on line or throught the met
list than traveling through Morocco or visiting a show, looking at hundreds of
unclassified probable meteorites, and discussing the likelyhood of that or what
type they may be with the seller. That's the way many dealers work to find
unusual types that then get taken further to be officially classified. I see no
fault with a NWA seller working in this way. The The fault comes if buyer does
not then get it analysed or classified and tries to sell it on as an authentic
classified meteorite. There are also thousands of meteorites amongst the
hundreds of collections that came through NWA dealers from established large
strewnfields which sit there as examples of a variety of falls/finds and have
never been cut and classified. Just found as part of a new fall/find as it's
impossible for every piece to be classified....examples are Chelya
binsk, Ribbeck, Erg Chech 002, Tissint, Holbrook,...the list is endless. I
suspect very few collections consist of specimens where each individual has
been classified and most have individuals of those I've mentioned (or others)
that have never seen a scientist. If you are new to meteorites or have very
little experience then this is probably not the avenue for you to buy for a
collection unless you are happy to go to the trouble of getting analysis done.
G
On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 2:32?PM Rhett Bourland via Meteorite-list
<[email protected]> wrote:
Educated guesses aren't classifications.? Nobody can do that.? I've got close
to a couple hundred pieces in my collection that I've built up over the past 25
years.? I own classes of meteorites that most museums don't even have because
the museums that I got them from told me where the other pieces were.? I can
safely say that I have handled and seen even more in that time.? The IMCA got
started in my living room. I wouldn't even call something a meteorite unless it
got tested.? As Anne Black recently said, people guessing what they have and
presenting it as such is nothing but harmful for the science and commercial
trade of these rocks and that woman has seen and handled stuff that I can only
dream of.
On Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 3:37?PM <[email protected]> wrote:
Rhett,
?
Our North African meteorite family has earned the right to make educated
guesses, especially after they have proven themselves to be reputable dealers
AND have examined the specimen. They have handled far more meteorites than most
dealers and collectors. There is no surprise that they, and Mohamed in
particular, can tell the difference between a CO and another type of meteorite.
Mohamed was fully transparent and clearly stated that it is unclassified. There
is nothing inauthentic about the posting.
?
I have no ulterior motive in responding to this post other than desiring
respectful discourse.
?
Sincerely,
?
Mendy
?
From: Meteorite-list <[email protected]> On Behalf Of
Rhett Bourland via Meteorite-list
Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2024 9:53 AM
To: Benzaki Mohamed <[email protected]>
Cc: Meteorite List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified
?
It's unclassified and yet you're calling it a CO?? That doesn't sound very
authentic to me.
?
On Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 10:17?AM Benzaki Mohamed via Meteorite-list
<[email protected]> wrote:
Hi all members hop have a good day.
?Everyone interested will be interested by a largeste co carbonaceous
unclassified please contacte? me.all beste.?
______________________________________________
Meteorite-list mailing list
[email protected]
https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
______________________________________________
Meteorite-list mailing list
[email protected]
https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
______________________________________________
Meteorite-list mailing list
[email protected]
https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<https://pairlist2.pair.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/attachments/20240725/18cf8cac/attachment-0001.htm>
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
______________________________________________
Meteorite-list mailing list
[email protected]
https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
------------------------------
End of Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 265, Issue 29
***********************************************
______________________________________________
Meteorite-list mailing list
[email protected]
https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
______________________________________________
Meteorite-list mailing list
[email protected]
https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
______________________________________________
Meteorite-list mailing list
[email protected]
https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
