> > df: mark - "[My "single thoughtless line"] illustrates the trolling > tradition of marxmail" > > It doesn't take me 5000 words to say what I think about George's > pendejadas, "While Ukraine has every right to confront militarily the > invasion it is incumbent on socialists in the imperialist countries to > insist that their governments abstain from any military intervention, > including the supply of weapons" > > Socialists won't have to do much insisting with Trump is calling the > shots. > > >
Far be it from me to criticize a single line as "thoughtless" or "trolling"--terms used on occasion and by one or more thoughtlessly and as trolling in themselves. But you might want to dig a bit deeper into the original text when this is the argument: > > The existing European order has neither the right nor the capability to > bring justice or end oppression through military means. In the case of > Ukraine, the invasion of Russia, insofar as it represented a violation of > Ukrainian political independence, i.e. its right to self-determination, > was unjust. This remains the case independently of any judgement of the > character or actions of the current Ukrainian state or government. Yet it > was always the case (as the current situation now shows) that both > European and US imperialism neither wanted nor were capable of delivering > justice for Ukraine. While Ukraine has every right to confront militarily > the invasion, and to demand whatever aid from outside that it wishes, it > is incumbent on socialists in the imperialist countries to insist that > their own governments abstain from any military intervention -- including > the supply of weapons -- in any sphere. A peace that is bought with > imperialist power will never anywhere turn out to be a just or lasting > peace and it is the duty of socialists everywhere to disabuse the notion > of the possibility of peace and justice emanating from the barrels of the > imperialists' guns. Socialists must oppose NATO, and all its doings. They > must also oppose the setting up any pan-European defence force. > > First and foremost--name the "existing European order." It's capitalism, and since comrade George is presenting a Marxist analysis, iti would be wise to point that Marx's critique completely expose "right" and "justice" as being attributes, moments, attached to private property--attributes and moments abstracted from that social relation in order to disguise its origin, and preservation as ideology. Marx's critique overcome that ideological framework through historical materialism--through the relations of classes. Ukraine has a "right" of independence in the current conflict to the extent that class struggle is silenced in the conflict itself--to the extent that right and independence are posited as supra-historical eternal "naturally occurring." The moment represented by the "right of self-determination" is an appearance, a form. a stage to be superseded as the class relations pushing forward that form erupt beyond the limitations of the form. In this, the "right of self determination" is the equivalent of the "right" to form a liberal democratic government. It's a "right" that, if established as an objective, requires suppression of the struggle at its origin. "Ukraine has every right to confront....and demand." What Ukraine is this? The bourgeoisie's Ukraine, with an ec0nomy, a mode of production just like that of Russia, oligarchs and all? That Ukraine is going to demand weapons from NATO. And socialists say? "Ukraine has every right to obtain weapons from NATO." At the same time according to comrade George "Socialists must oppose NATO..." The non-sensical "positions" should expose the limitations of "right to self-determination" and the use of "right" to mask, excuse, prevent a class analysis of the forces driving the conflict. The conflict between Ukraine and Russia is no more a struggle for the right of self-determination than the opposition to the German occupation of Belgium, or Netherlands, or France was one for self-determination--the so-called right of a "national bourgeoisie" to exploit a "national working class" free of "foreign interference." There is no exploitation of the working class anywhere that does not involve the cooperation and competition of the bourgeoisie everywhere. This is an intra/inter capitalist conflict. Not putting forth an independent working class program for ending the conflict through opposition to capital-ism goes nowhere. Short version: Whatever happened to the Zimmerwald left? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#35591): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/35591 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/111412499/21656 -=-=- POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. #4 Do not exceed five posts a day. -=-=- Group Owner: marxmail+ow...@groups.io Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/13617172/21656/1316126222/xyzzy [arch...@mail-archive.com] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
