“waiting” … it happens, no worries. Mailinglists … sometimes even the Opt-in process can be abusive. We’ve seen customers get mailbombed with Subscription confirmations. At some point, mailing list software vendors need to find a way to address this. Exactly what that might be, I have no idea. Mark all subscription confirmations as junk (or suspect) by default? Would be sad, but … perhaps unavoidable.
At some point, perhaps the mail server infrastructure needs to manage sub/unsub events, and enforce them? Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise | Microsoft | Spam Analysis | "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." | Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ? From: Mark Foster [mailto:blak...@blakjak.net] Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 1:30 PM To: Michael Wise <michael.w...@microsoft.com> Cc: Gil Bahat <g...@magisto.com>; mailop@mailop.org Subject: Re: [mailop] Ex-post-facto spam complaints, a possible UI problem / other mitigation Re "waiting" - no problems, I misunderstood. I don't care if your mailing list has valid and working in subscription processes or not - if I didn't opt-in, it is spam and will be reported as such. (I'm sure that much spam reported as such is likely the result of laziness on he part of the receiver (out of sight, out of mind) and negatively impacts legit mailing lists, but (for example) I've never lived in the USA and have never opted into mailing lists relating to university alma mater or dodge dealerships, so why would I unsubscribe from what is clearly maliciously delivered to me at least at some level? -- Mark. Sent from a mobile device. On 25/09/2015, at 08:07, Michael Wise <michael.w...@microsoft.com<mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com>> wrote: Who said anything about *waiting* 24 hours? My point was, if the report is more than 24 hours old, its Real Time value has been completely lost and the sample is at best of historical value. Also, if the traffic is from a mailinglist and there is no working unsub, we really need some way of noticing that. If the traffic has been reported, and the unsub procedure has been invoked, and the traffic continues (after … 24 hours? Some demand at least a week to unsub, and that’s obscene IMHO), the sender should be banned completely. Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise | Microsoft | Spam Analysis | "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." | Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.microsoft.com%2fen-us%2fdownload%2fdetails.aspx%3fid%3d18275&data=01%7c01%7cMichael.Wise%40microsoft.com%7c53c555676a0d4256d26208d2c51eea5a%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=4Zga4%2fLhzxcQXTudegyOr4%2fjnXch7mNrtkTISzANGmc%3d> ? From: Mark Foster [mailto:blak...@blakjak.net] Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 12:53 PM To: Michael Wise <michael.w...@microsoft.com<mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com>> Cc: Gil Bahat <g...@magisto.com<mailto:g...@magisto.com>>; mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> Subject: Re: [mailop] Ex-post-facto spam complaints, a possible UI problem / other mitigation One of my email addresses gets what look like legit mailing list emails constantly. I opted into none of them so they all get spam-reported despite valid unsub processes. If the "valid" list doesn't use double-opt-in and uses addresses harvested by other means, this is a hard ask. Also waiting 24 hours has almost no real-time value - fast reports will let vendors actually block spam as it is still being delivered. Finally, reports may still be valid when "late" as some people don't constantly watch their email. -- Mark. Sent from a mobile device. On 25/09/2015, at 07:40, Michael Wise <michael.w...@microsoft.com<mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com>> wrote: Ignore any reports where the email was received by the recipient beyond a certain window. 24 hours is probably too soon. 1 week may very well be the sweet spot, because … if it really *IS* a campaign, chances are you dealt with it well within the 24 hour window. 1 month is way too late. Condense volume of complaints from the same recipient about the same sender down to a single cluster…. Other guidelines will present themselves I’m sure. Oh, and a bunch of False Positive complaints from a given sender to similar recipients (ie, all to the same or a small number of domains) …? If the sender domain and the recipient domain are siblings somehow, mark the sender as abusive and discard. Or send a nasty note… or fire the customer. YMMV. Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise | Microsoft | Spam Analysis | "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." | Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.microsoft.com%2fen-us%2fdownload%2fdetails.aspx%3fid%3d18275&data=01%7c01%7cMichael.Wise%40microsoft.com%7c41984e91ba2e46407fb508d2c519ceff%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=TZdHgIEm53aTY1qgZXbCCYCuTVFn0ZQaw39T5zlMqn4%3d> ? From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Gil Bahat Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 8:04 AM To: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> Subject: [mailop] Ex-post-facto spam complaints, a possible UI problem / other mitigation Hi, Carefully observing our FBL complaints one by one, I see a disturbing phenomena: users marking swaths of email, sometimes received over a month ago as spam, accounting for a significant volume of complaints. I have good reason to believe this does not represent actual spam reporting, but rather an easy to perform what would have been a more complex (UI wise) task, tandem delete and unsubscribe. Users do this to emails which they clearly read and found useful (e.g. the welcome or email verification emails, emails which they opened, clicked and even forwarded at times, etc etc). I would like to request all providers to (A) consider changing their UI to account for this option / suggest unsubscription and deletion instead and (B) mitigate the impact of multiple consecutive reports. I am not able to quantify how this exactly affects our service but I have good reason to believe these are counted to full effect as much as any other spam complaint (e.g. from sources like return path senderscore). Feedback (outside the loop, snicker snicker) would be most welcome. Regards, Gil Bahat, DevOps/Postmaster, Magisto Ltd. _______________________________________________ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> http://chilli.nosignal.org/mailman/listinfo/mailop<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fchilli.nosignal.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2fmailop&data=01%7c01%7cMichael.Wise%40microsoft.com%7c41984e91ba2e46407fb508d2c519ceff%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=%2bKD6w%2fzKOkoSbiRmIbh38KKBv2iosXrJy7kN34BtnhM%3d> _______________________________________________ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> http://chilli.nosignal.org/mailman/listinfo/mailop<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fchilli.nosignal.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2fmailop&data=01%7c01%7cMichael.Wise%40microsoft.com%7c53c555676a0d4256d26208d2c51eea5a%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=6AtoBIqIF4k1DlOGHmaVGlHVLlSGUAUIuSWUoloay7E%3d>
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