Hi Richard, I completely agree and second everything you've written. In my current work environment, I have to use Windows for most of what I do. At least once a day, usually more, I think how grateful I am for the accessibility of Apple products, and for the fact that once I leave my job, I get to go back to my Mac and my I-devices. Are Apple products perfect. No. but nothing is perfect, and apple is far ahead of the competition. Cheers, Donna On Feb 16, 2013, at 11:05 AM, Richard Ring <richr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> John has pretty much expressed my feelings here. I've used Android with > Talkback, and to me, it's not ready for prime time. I say that only because I > know some Android users who say that the reason for my point of view > regarding Android stems from the fact that I don't know what I'm doing. Now, > to the topic. I have used the app store, and I have always been able to > accomplish what I wanted to. The same with the iBook store. My definition of > accessibility is simple. If I can use it it's accessible. If I can't it's > not. Iam still amazed that I can use a touch screen at all, and Apple made > this possible. > We are a small minority, like a drop of water in the Pacific ocean. > Certainly, we should never be afraid to criticize any company, but we should > also realize that in the vast scheme of things, where money is all, we don't > matter all that much! > You can have an off day, but you can't have a day off! ---The Art of Fielding > Sent from my Mac Book Pro > richr...@gmail.com > > On Feb 16, 2013, at 10:26 AM, John Panarese <jpanar...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> this entire topic, as usual, is coming back to the subjective in nature. >> What one considers accessible or not differs from another person. I think >> to make a statement that accessibility is going backwards in iOS is strictly >> a subjective position based on personal opinion and no real facts. For >> every point one can make claiming things are getting worse, someone else can >> come along to disprove that point or make additional points that counter >> that argument entirely. >> >> Apple is not perfect. Bugs exist and will continue to exist. That is >> the nature of software. Sometimes, old bugs return. Anyone who has been >> around the generation and evolution of software products surely understands >> this reality. Things get broken. Things then get fixed. Then, they can be >> broken again because working on one part of the code effects another and the >> engineers don't necessary see that until the software is being used on a >> wider scale. >> >> As someone who trains users on iDevices, I can tell you that a lot of >> the assumed issues with devices often comes down to basic user error. In no >> way am I meaning to be insulting or assuming with this statement either. I >> am far from perfect and would never claim otherwise. From experience, >> though, something as simple as the way one holds the phone to use it can >> lead to problems with table indexes or locating buttons and such because of >> finger placement or the angle the device is being operated. People will >> sometimes tell me that controls move around the screen or double taps aren't >> working or sliders are not changing only to learn that they are creating the >> issues because they are not holding the phone steady or do not realize they >> shift finger placement or allow extra fingers to brush the edges of the >> screen. >> >> I have become so aware of the little things as a trainer that it has >> made me a much better user simply because I have to help those who are >> having issues. The App store and iBooks store, for example, are a much >> nicer and more accessible version now. I find it much easier to teach users >> how to deal with either store now. As long as you understand the general >> layout of the screens and know where you are, there are no accessibility >> problems. >> >> To me, I keep it all in perspective. There is an old expression about >> the grass seeming greener on the other side of the fence. Android is no >> picnic, and this goes well beyond general accessibility. There are far more >> problems and confusion in the Android world than iOS 6. At least, for the >> iOS user, upgrades are universal, users as far back as the 3GS can still use >> current software and you don't have to worry about malware and other >> security exploits, unless you go the JB route. >> >> In any event, as I said, opinion and generalizations on a public list >> always lead to topics becoming larger than life. For every person who makes >> the claim accessibility is decreasing in iOS, I can find 3 others who will >> counter that assertion. >> >> >> >> >> Take Care >> >> John D. Panarese >> Director >> Mac for the Blind >> Tel, (631) 724-4479 >> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com >> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com >> >> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX LION >> >> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE >> >> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT >> >> >> >> On Feb 16, 2013, at 11:02 AM, Alex Hall <mehg...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I did say "not as easy to use at first", not "not as easy to use period". >>> The new layout is completely useable once you get used to it. No >>> accessibility should not play second fiddle to visual appeal, but, as I >>> said, if a visual change can still remain accessible, then Apple should >>> make that change if they feel they need to. Different is not inaccessible, >>> it is merely different and we must find a new best way of using it since >>> the old way no longer works. Sometimes, of course, there is no efficient >>> way, and that is when we need to flood Apple with emails about the problem >>> and, more helpfully, offer suggestions as to what can be done. I'll grant >>> that iBooks may now not be as accessible, but again I have never used that >>> program extensively so I could not say. Still, change is not always equal >>> to inaccessible. >>> On Feb 16, 2013, at 9:56 AM, Cheree Heppe <che...@dogsc4me.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Cheree Heppe here: >>>> This fascinates me. Whenever a change in accessibility is made that >>>> impairs us, somebody always apologizes for us by saying that we have to >>>> make allowances for the visuals among us. Does that strike anyone as >>>> backward thinking? >>>> >>>> Hanging accessibility on the visual appeal perceptions of a blind observer >>>> implies that we as blind people have no idea of what is easy to use or >>>> what is useful. Universal design does not mean me firster design, unless >>>> I'm seriously misunderstanding the intent of the English language. >>>> >>>> The previous iteration worked. This iteration is convoluted and >>>> restrictive. >>>> >>>> Earlier, Apple made the choice to ignor accessibility and ended up losing >>>> the contract for the State of New York's schools because their newest >>>> version of accessibility had narrowed the access so badly that those >>>> needing the access couldn't use it and the Windows camp took precedence. >>>> >>>> I would hate to think that sort of slippage is re-asserting itself. >>>> >>>> My srance: The current iteration of IOS it flawed and moving farther into >>>> that area. My thinking is that somebody in Apple is embarrassed to be >>>> compared to a charity group pandoring to the disabled and, why don't the >>>> Apple people realize that they have a normal public to satisfy, etc. >>>> >>>> Well, the fact remains that anyone has the potential to require disability >>>> features. An accident, a careless inattention by our fellow man and we >>>> have the accessibility paradigm staring us in the face. There are always >>>> those pesky wars, where whole people come back with less than they left >>>> with. >>>> >>>> Accessibility features aid everyone. There should not be a stigma in how >>>> accessibility is introduced into a product. If there is doubt, the >>>> accessibility tab in the IOS devices is way at the bottom of the list of >>>> other modalities,. Accessibility should be intuitive and simple, so that >>>> somebody newly faced with issues that already cloud their emothins and >>>> judgment can just reach out and keep going with a slightly new form. >>>> >>>> The App Store isn't easy and isn't accessible. The IBooks store is iffy >>>> and tedious to navigate as a blind user now and it didn't act that way >>>> before the new IOS iteration. >>>> >>>> So, do I just return to paying my $75 or $50 fee and reading second hand >>>> through BookShare? >>>> >>>> Anybody out there listening? I hope so, because Apple made a gigantic >>>> stride toward equalizing the paying field. It must have really bothered a >>>> few and maybe there are influences geared to making this new, shiny >>>> equality a bit tarnished to turn those ungrateful blind types back toward >>>> those who really know best how to care for and govern them. >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Cheree Heppe >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my IPhone 4S >>>> >>>> On 16/02/2013, at 2:31, Donna Goodin <doniado...@me.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Well said, Alex. >>>> Cheers, >>>> Donna >>>> On Feb 15, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Alex Hall <mehg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I agree. While I don't use the iBook Store much, I use the App Store all >>>>> the time. Once I got used to the new layout, I had no problems at all, >>>>> and still don't. Yes, I preferred the old layout, but one thing we have >>>>> to remember is that the iOS platform is geared toward being visually >>>>> pleasing and easy to use. Putting accessibility on that should not limit >>>>> Apple. That is, if it sells more devices and looks better to set things >>>>> up the way they have done in iOS6, and if that new interface can be made >>>>> totally accessible, then they have every right to make the change. Just >>>>> because it is different, or not as easy to use at first glance, does not >>>>> make it worse. For instance, one thing people forget to use in the new >>>>> App Store is heading navigation, which lets you flick between the app and >>>>> the selected information. You can also touch the left-most tab on the >>>>> bottom, flick left once, and there's your adjustable picker of search >>>>> results. Does Apple make mistakes? Yes, and plenty of them, but they sell >>>>> millions of units and are trying to please a huge range of users. Do they >>>>> make interfaces that are accessible but horrible to use? Yes (Garageband, >>>>> for instance - you can use it, but not efficiently). Overall, though, >>>>> they do their best, they have an amazing accessibility department, and, >>>>> remember, Voiceover is still younger than most of the screen readers out >>>>> there, yet it can easily compete with any of them. >>>>> On Feb 16, 2013, at 12:28 AM, Ricardo Walker <rwalker...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> I must say, I'm at a total loss about iBooks and the app store. These >>>>>> seem to be working fine for me on all my IOS devices. I remember a few >>>>>> months back, when they first changed the app store there was accessible >>>>>> issues. I think they fixed that in a month or less. And I've never had >>>>>> any problems using the table index sliders. Just to be clear, I'm not >>>>>> saying that you are not indeed having these issues. I'm just wondering, >>>>>> could it be user error? >>>>>> >>>>>> Ricardo Walker >>>>>> rica...@appletothecore.info >>>>>> Twitter:@apple2thecore >>>>>> www.appletothecore.info >>>>>> >>>>>> On Feb 15, 2013, at 10:57 PM, Cheree Heppe <che...@dogsc4me.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheree Heppe here: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No need to make excuses for Apple. The IBooks store and the App Store >>>>>>> have become significantly less accessible with the changing IOS >>>>>>> versions. This doesn't have to happen and is a bad sign. In IBooks, >>>>>>> there are horizontal rows of titles and at either end of those rows >>>>>>> oone encounters a slider or something that when barely touched will >>>>>>> shift the titles listings so that a blind user has a hell of a time >>>>>>> determining what the list actually contains. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The same slider in the contacts list on the IPhone works well because >>>>>>> it somehow paces itself with the user's scrolling finger and is very >>>>>>> usable. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The App Store has these screen shots and a tiny place to flick up or >>>>>>> whatever that in using the I-devices since 2010, I have not been able >>>>>>> to master. The earlier iteration of the app store's accessibility >>>>>>> worked so well that it was easy to read about the apps, move through a >>>>>>> list and so on. I have barely used either the app store or IBooks >>>>>>> store since these limitations became part of the IOS. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> These changes make it nearly impossible for a new blind user to get a >>>>>>> confident sense of the potential for independent access that we got >>>>>>> only a few IOS upgrades ago. This would be very off putting to me if I >>>>>>> had acquired my I-device recently. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Apple does not have to model its screen reader and access after the >>>>>>> seriously broken JAWS example. I use JAWS at work and have never >>>>>>> experienced a computer program so poorly equipped to do a job. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> Cheree Heppe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my IPhone 4S >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 15/02/2013, at 15:50, "Blake Sinnett" <frequency...@hotmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would have to agree. Apple has lost some of their magic ever since >>>>>>> the middle of last year. Things just seem to be breaking a little too >>>>>>> often. iCloud, bugs in iOS 6, the maps fiasco... Who knows what'll >>>>>>> happen next. Of course Tim's just taken over, so maybe after a while >>>>>>> things'll smooth out. The only thing we can do is wait and see what >>>>>>> happens. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Blake >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> From: <jshandr...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 11:42 AM >>>>>>> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>>>>>> Subject: OT: iOS 6 Disappointment! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OT: iOS 6 disappointment! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is anyone else feeling a little sad about the iOS eco-system since >>>>>>>> release in October. Don't get me wrong, there will always be issues. >>>>>>>> However Apple has had so many issues. >>>>>>>> First, you had the complete redesign of iBooks, App, iTunes store. In >>>>>>>> the first release the blind community lost a lot of access, because we >>>>>>>> didn't even have the ability to see ratings with the new software. >>>>>>>> Second, you had the App store crashing when you would go into the >>>>>>>> search area. This happened to everyone, not just our community. >>>>>>>> thirdly, who can forget the map debacle. >>>>>>>> You have devices going into recovery mode when you do a reset. >>>>>>>> The 6. 1 update you now have exchange issue. The extreme 4s battery >>>>>>>> issue, and now this morning people who use institutional accounts like >>>>>>>> at schools. Individuals can bypass the no downloading option. >>>>>>>> I just find this so sad. apple used to pay such close attention to >>>>>>>> stability, clean UI, and of course accessibility. I still love my >>>>>>>> Apple products, and hope things change under Jony Ive. Is anyone else >>>>>>>> feeling slightly let down? This is just a short list, I know you could >>>>>>>> point out more. I just pointed out a few which never should have >>>>>>>> happened! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> J.P. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Have a great day, >>>>> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini) >>>>> mehg...@gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Have a great day, >>> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini) >>> mehg...@gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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