That's a real disappointment that the conversion or rendering of PDFs into Safari doesn't preserve table markup. Frankly, I hate it when screen readers and some of the OCR programs want to linearize a table. Try and imagine parsing a bus schedule or bank statement with say 8 to fifteen columns across and have that thing strung out into a vertical list. Just say No! I won't go there. I think two dimensional table navigation with the screen reader or VO is the best thing that has ever happened. But I like the idea of being to pull PDFs into different rendering environments if possible.
Oh, another program that parses PDFs including scanned PDFs is Docuscan from Serotek. I bought the Windows version last summer and just learned that I can also use it from the mac for no additional charge. I had reaceived a fax of a PDF and I downloaded the image and had Docuscan read it and it worked pretty well. Anyway, it's just another idea using some commercial software to parse PDF documents. On 4/12/12, Scott Howell <scottn3...@gmail.com> wrote: > Kirsten, > > I think the problem is simply poorly formatted tables. VO is not designed to > try and reconstruct a table. I am not sure exactly how all this works, but > WIndow-Eyes for example can look at a website that has tables and even when > poorly constructed, (generally missing header tags), those tables can be > navigated as a table. There is some backend process for using the "table > mode" to make this work. Unfortunately there are a lot of very poorly done > tables or processes for building those tables. So, all that to say I do not > blame the screen reading technology so much as blaming the app/person who > developed the table. > I wondered if Fine Reader was accessible on the Mac and if it really > provides anything that Preview cannot. So, will be curious about your > experience. > > On Apr 11, 2012, at 7:57 PM, Kirsten Edmondson wrote: > >> From my investigations today, it seems that it does what most >> screen-readers do with columns. It puts everything vertically underneath >> everything. Thus, there are no columns. There are no differentiations >> between columns or cells, but you seem to need to remember which heading >> you want and work out which bit you want as a result. What I mean by this, >> is say, your table has 4 columns. It will always start with the four >> headings (underneath each other of course) and then you need to work >> through in your head, as you read and associate each item to its given >> heading and thus column. Although this is not the best way of doing it, >> it's better than reading half a line and half another line on one line, >> which is often what I've found happen when pages are split into >> undetectible columns. This causes issues because you have to try to make >> sense of two different sets of words which are not likely to be linked and >> remember them as you navigate line by line in order to read coherently. >> So, although this does not seem to be happening, and that is an >> improvement, I'm sorry to say there has been no amazing advancement. >> Tables in HTML are much more navigable as they have titles and a clear >> structure, and obvious breaks between columns. But when you turn a PDF >> into a safari-opened document, it doesn't have the HTML functionality and >> thus just reads the table as text rather than a separately navigable part >> of the page. >> I still have to invest in Fine Reader for Mac, but probably that will >> solve problems, in the mean-time, long-winded as it is, you either need to >> use your memory, or do what Rafael does and rescan a printed document. >> I wonder what it is about Kerzweil and Fine Reader that make tables >> possible, whilst VO and Jaws can't read PDF docs properly ... >> Kirsten. >> >> On 11 Apr 2012, at 17:51, Bejarano, Rafael P. wrote: >> >>> The only solution I've found is to print out the document, and then to >>> read it with my Kurzweil, since it is able to read by columns. >>> >>> Good luck with your efforts, and please keep the list apprised of any >>> successes. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to be able to >>> read multiple-column, pdf documents on my Mac. >>> >>> Cordially, >>> Rafael >>> On Apr 10, 2012, at 5:51 PM, Kirsten Edmondson wrote: >>> >>>> I haven't, but you raise a good point, I have never found it possible to >>>> read PDF columns properly with Jaws and used to have to use fine reader >>>> to translate into an MS Doc. The PDFs I am currently putting into Safari >>>> are mainly journal articles-they have some tables and I don't think >>>> those read properly, but I will try to remember to take a look at some >>>> PDFs in columns and see. I think we're likely to have little success >>>> however, as it's about translating graphical representation into words >>>> and a logical order to people-many of whom don't have a great concept of >>>> layout and formatting. >>>> >>>> On 9 Apr 2012, at 16:21, Bejarano, Rafael P. wrote: >>>> >>>>> Those are very helpful suggestions. I wonder, though: Have you ever >>>>> tried reading pdf documents formatted in multiple columns? I can do so >>>>> using an old PowerPC iBook running Tiger, but I can't seem to do so >>>>> with newer Macs and OSs. >>>>> >>>>> Cordially, >>>>> Rafael Bejarano >>>>> On Apr 8, 2012, at 4:47 PM, Kirsten Edmondson wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> A few weeks ago, someone asked what was the best way of reading PDFs. >>>>>> I gave some vague response, and though I can't remember who asked, I >>>>>> know it comes up quite often, so, below I list more specific steps. I >>>>>> hope they help whoever wanted to know. >>>>>> 1. Find your document in your folder system. >>>>>> 2. Press VO-M and navigate to the File menu. >>>>>> 3. Go down to the Open With menu. >>>>>> 4. Arrow right and then down to Safari. >>>>>> 5. Leave the document to open-this might take some time if it is large >>>>>> for example-when it starts reading, arrow until you are in the window >>>>>> (rather than in the other web functions such as add to reading list >>>>>> etc). >>>>>> 6. Interact with the window with the VO-Down Arrow-Shift command. >>>>>> 7. If you want to read line by line, try to get your reading setting >>>>>> to 'navigation', otherwise when you use the down arrow, you will be >>>>>> reading via character or word. >>>>>> 8. Use the arrows to read up and down each line. >>>>>> 9. Close or quit when you are finished. >>>>>> N.B.: the default setting for PDFs is Preview, which I personally find >>>>>> hard to access. >>>>>> This has worked for me so far most often. >>>>>> I think I said to use Google Chrome last time I emailed, but I think I >>>>>> should really have said Safari, as Chrome seems not to open the >>>>>> document in the same way-often saying 'empty HTML' which Safari does >>>>>> not. >>>>>> Kind regards >>>>>> Kirsten. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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